Bullying
How would you handle SS10 bullying DS8? It can get physical or verbal. I'm seeing DS is obviously scared of SS when I recently asked what happened to his eye? He said he didn't know. The last time a physical altercation happened was earlier this year maybe when SS for some reason punched DS in the stomach...we were obviously infuriated and DH had him.punished for a long time. He was almost shipped out...I thought we were done with this.
I've heard verbal coercion and small nit picking here and there and DS would talk back and also tell on SS at times but just this past Monday again he's been hit by SS but with DS folder. He goes in his bookbag and threw it at him. Idk how that escalated but it's been a long time from.the last time.and DH was angry. He said u cannot bully anyone and especially not your own brother. So he's punished for a long while again. How in the heck would you handle this? We also spoke to DS to not be afraid or him etc. Of.course therapy is an option but at the moment we don't have the means to get him there. Very soon it may be possible.
He also mentioned he wanted to live with his mom that night he heard his punishment. Dh told him it doesn't work that way. He's primarily with us and see the mom eow. This past weekend somehow her daughter from another dad, after nearly 2yrs, has seen them. So ss is getting nostalgia I'm sure and bm and feeding bs that they're a family again and only missing him om.sure. bc he's never said he's wanted his mom. He's actually said the opposite for yrs bc he's been afraid of her. Now that he's hardly around her I believe he's forgotten just how dangerous she is....she's lost custody if all her kids to their dads bc of her terrible past...so we of course said that's not happening but how would you handle this?
No tolerance for violence.
No tolerance for violence. My OSS choked my OBD when they 14. Her dad, my ex, called the cops on him. (I had no idea this went on) Long messy story but DZh ended up giving him a choice after the conversion the cop, follow our rules or don't come over. He stayed at BM's. Come to find out he was nasty to just about everyone of the bios/skids growing up. We ended up being the safe house.
Your son is counting on YOU to protect him. Unless you want trouble from you ex about this, put your foot down. Don't let the boys be together. This is a parenting problem that DH needs to SOLVE, not handle. It needs to be solved. It needs to end. It can and will undermine your marriage if it's not solved.
I dont have any bios
But have read and heard a GREAT MANY STORIES of bio parents who actually had their children taken away due to abuse from the step-sib.
Zero tolerance as of today. Your bio is not to be alone EVER with SS.
Nanny cams. Document.
Thank you both
Thanks for your replies. I really appreciate it. I absolutely feel this way. Dh was really thinking to have SS stay with his mom. Even though she's dangerous he is not okay at all with SS hurting DS. And yes it need to never happen again.
So your DH is actually
So your DH is actually thinking of dumping his son on his unfit and dangerous BM, because he was rough with his younger brother?
So your DH is not ok with one of his sons (DS) being bullied but he would be ok with his other son (SS) growing in an abusive and neglectful environment.
Am I undestanding correctly here or what?
Because if your DH is really considering sending his son to live again with his BM (who the court deemed an unfit parent), then I'm afraid your DH needs therapy more than SS does.
No
No he didn't seriously consider it. Ss first said he wanted to go back to his mom's. When I told dh this he said fine he can go then! This was out of frustration not out of seriousness...he didn't tell ss this he was responding to me in text. When he came home he told ss that's not how this works. He can't just choose his dad then choose his mom once he's in trouble.
Do you have advice on what happened with ss and ds?
Found out from a text from bm today from 1am to dh that she confirms she's the one emotinaly manipulating him to want to live with her... This morning her message says she'd like to have Christmas bc she has all her kids except SS. She said he's sad and depressed to be with us. How is this so? Where'd all these feelings come from? Oh yea his mom's manipulative and thinks this is all a game to enmesh her kids. But as the other 2 posters stated this is serious and it may come down to SS being removed bc hurting his own siblings and having them fear him is not okay and shouldn't be tolerated. No he shouldn't be with his mother but he may not stay here much longer if it continues. I'm not sure what to do that's why I'm asking for advice.
My advice is to first and
My advice is to first and foremost stop the kids under your care from spending time with abusive adults.
If SS doesn't go to his mom's anymore, what's the worst that can happen? Do you think a judge would give her full custody?
I don't think so.
Limit contact as much as possible.
Tell SS the real reason he's there and what his mom did, perhaps not directly but indirectly. Make it unappealing for him to go to his mom's.
Schedule activies on the weekends he has to be at mom's. Oops, this weekend he can't come, he has soccer. Oh, this weekend, he has a sleepover at his friends', can't come. We miss you so much etc etc.
People are gonna tell you not to do this because she's his mother. They're going to tell you to play by the rules and not "alienate" the kid from his abusive and criminally neglectful parent. But with people like your BM, the only method that might work is the one I'm suggesting. Fight fire with fire.
The solution to a bully... is applying overwhelming violence
delivered to the bully by their victim.
I was targeted by bullies for a few years when I was in my late preteens and early teens. Until I came to the realizaiton that getting hit hurts whether fighting back or not. So, I commited to making sure that the bully received damage far in excess to anything they delivered on me.
I was an easy going kid, mid range socially, mid upper range accademically, mid upper range atheletically. As I progressed from the gangly pre teens into my teens is when I got the attention of bullies. Usually after arriving at a new school.
Bullies do not like the site of their own blood.
Have DS bust SS in the nose, split a lip, blacken an eye, knock out a tooth, or partially tear an ear.
All are extremely effective examples of overwhelming violence that ends a bully being a bully.
When I was in 8th grade, the first year of what used to known as Jr. HS in the pre middle school years, I figured out this solution to bullying. I had left the lunch room for the court yard where the kids congregated for the last half of lunch breaks. A kid I first went to school with in 5th grade and two of his year younger minions decided it would be fun to bully me. My long term class mate ran across the courtyard and jumped on my back knocking me to my hands and knees tearing my jeans, skinning my knees and palms. As I got up one of the others did the same thing. As I got up from the second attacker I drove off of my legs and hit him in the mouth splitting his bottom lip into two flaps that hung from both sides of his teeth and dislodged a couple of his recently out of braces teeth, I then turned to the fist attacker who ran off. The third guy had run away as soon as I disfigured #2.
I was called to the Principal's office. He had my file on his desk. He told me that I had been in his school for 2yrs, had never been in trouble, had decent grades, etc... He asked what had happened, I explained. He sent me to class and suspended the three bullies.
My point is, beat a bully excessively, and they stop being a bully and turn into a reformed bully. Particularly when they have a reminder scar that they will have to see for the rest of their life.
I had a few more bully related incidents after starting at a new school. Over the next few years.
I also had a couple bully incidents in my neighborhood as well. Never more than one by any specific bully. I had the solution to bullies, so when they bullied, I solved it. The bully would end up in the hospital (one with a ruptured testicle, one with a broken hand, and one with stitches).
My SS was targeted by a bully at a much younger age than I was. He came home from school one day in K with bruises around his neck. As it turned out, he was being choked from behind on the school bus. A kid that lived up the street from us who was 3yrs older than SS was the choker. We called the school, nothing happened. This was the last couple of weeks of Kindergarten for SS.
The same crap started again the first week of school when SS started 1st grade. It only happened once. Over the summer SS and I had worked on dealing with the bully. As the bully started choking SS, SS reached back, grabbed an ear, and tore it partially from the kid's head. No more bullying. Our lawyer dealt with the school's attempt to discipline SS.
The bully's dad knocked on our door the evening of the partially removed ear to hand me the hospital bill. I called SS to the door, showed bully daddy the bruises around my son's neck and told bully daddy to deal with his kid and that we would not be paying one Cent of the hospital bill. Bully daddy fileted his kid as they marched back down the street to their home. Seeing my much younger much smaller bruised neck SS gave bully daddy clarity. My SS gave the bully clarity.
SS was bullied again when he was in 5th grade. He defended himself but only to block and control the bully. SS got an award from the school for not beating the bully to a pulp. SS had been in martial arts training for a few years at that point and the bully did not represent a threat that SS had to draw blood on to solve the issue. SS, is a far better man than I am. I would have sent the bully to the hospital if I had been SS at that time. SS was presented an award at an all school assembly not long after the bully was suspended. The award was for not fighting back. Which torqued my jaws to no end. Wrong message IMHO. When it comes to dealing with a bully, the hug it out and take a beating bullshit is just that. Bullshit.
Get your DS in a martial arts class. Make sure he understands he will not be in trouble for defending himself against bullying. Then, when he bisects SS's bottom lip or miss aligns his teeth the next time SS bullies, SS will have the message. No more bullying.
All IMHO and experience, as a former target for bullies, and as a parent to a former target of bullies.
What you did won't fly in
What you and SS did won't fly in this day and age, Rags.
So when a traumatized child
So when a traumatized child misbehaves or acts out, the "advice" here is to either:
Physically abuse the child
or
Pawn off the child on an abusive/neglectful caregiver to be rid of him.
Nope, I never said that, nor did I think it.
I said that the solution to a violent bully is for their victim to respond to the bully perpitrated violence with overwhelmingly destructive violent agression.
Not that a parent or adult should apply that violence.
Bullies who get their ass kicked by their victim, tend to never bully again.
I refused to get hurt without defending myself. That, made me far less frequently the target of bullying.
Wow
Rags I'm sorry you and ss went through this as kids. That is terrifying. Did your parents advise you to hurt the bullies or was it your own idea?
You make a point that bullies really should be addressed. I had a meeting with both kids yesterday about bullying. I said if a bully hurts you including your own sibling you have to say soemthing first. Stand up to them and speak loud so others can hear and possibly help. If u can get away let a teacher or any adult know. If no one's around and u believe u can try to fight back but that is possibly getting both kids in trouble so I'd rather them tell an adult at the moment it happens or as soon as it's possible to get help.
You're responding to a very real situation. Ds seems very scared of ss. That is really messed up. Dh told ds in front of ss he has nothing to fear. I appreciate you giving the real side of bullying. This is real and it happens and kids need to be equipped with knowledge. I wouldn't advice my kids to exactly do that especially these days but I do understand where you're coming from.
Now my question to you and anyone else reading. Imagine your own child being hurt and intimidated by their own sibling that they sleep and eat and live with everyday. I think what dh said helps that ds has nothing to fear. He should not walk around scared of his own brother. To live with him daily you know?
**Also mentioning as mentioned below and above ..dh does not want to send his son to his abusive mother. Let's not detract this thread please. He said it to me only and to ss he said that's not how this works that he can't go to his mother.. bc its not safe there. So no need to keep bringing that up please. We of course would not seriously want that when this thread is about protecting BOTH kids. We have ss primarily now only bc of how dangerous his mom is.** this is why im asking about ds safety. Safety is always #1 to our family.
Thank you
It was my choice to go the
It was my choice to go the overwhelming agression route. However, mom and dad both advised that I was the only one who could stop the bullies. So, I did.
My transition was an incident that I was able to mitigate without a fight. I had not actually confronted a bully before. In elementary school I was targeted by an older kid who wanted his younger friend to fight me. The younger friend was an accomplished wrestler. I was resigned to having to defend myself when he said to me "no hitting me in the mouth, I have braces." So I told him no wrestling. If he got nearer than arm's length to me he would be picking brades our of the inside of his mouth and he could explain to his parents why they were paying for him to get his braces replaced. He decided he did not want to fight. I never did. His elder friend, wanted us to fight. We both shut him down.
If it can be avoided, by all means avoid the fight. If the bully strikes, end it. Immediatley and as damagingly as possible.
I get the change in sensitivities to a bully getting their ass kicked.
However, saying something while the bully is attacking, is not the solution. Start screaming for help as you disable the bully solves the problem and demonstrates compliance to the more recent social sensitvities without the victim tolerating continued damage from the bully.
Immediately pressing charges against the bully, hiring an attorney to keep the school district in line, and minimizing any issues the kid defending themselves may be targeted with by the school, police, etc.. can end the bully, put the school in it's place, and make the point that should be front and center.
If the bully does not want reconstructive surgery, they need to keep their hands to themselves. If the adults present are not paying attention to stop the initial agression, then.... there should be zero consequence when the victim responds with overwhelming damaging agression.
I never was bullied twice by the same bully after I came to my relaization that bullies need to not ever look the same after they initiate bullying. Every bully that tested me after my realization, sees the consequences of their choice. Even now. 40+ years later.
Hopefully, they never bullied anyone else after I delivered the message.
Your SS is not. Your problem
It he SS is Bullying his SB. It's up to DH to do something about it. Maybe he needs to see someone.. maybe he needs medication.. maybe he needs to be really punished. But DH has to step up and do something.. not take the easy way out. Dumping him on BM.
DH doesn't want to upset you. He knows if you get to upset you will not take care of SS. He doesn't want that
I dont want to sway this thread
I really don't want to sway the thread. I'm asking for advice for how to deal with your own child bullying their own sibling that's all really.
Dh has talked to him and punished him. Therapy seems to be the only thing we haven't done. One person says he wants to haul off ss to his abusive mother but that is not a fact at all. He said to me he can go then but he did not mean that nor did he tell ss this bc were not here to further traumatize ss. It's actually traumatic ds is being bullied in his own home by his brother he copies and follows also that's also been traumatized. This is very serious. I'm not trying to play a blame game of of dh is terrible or doesn't care about his kids. He obviously does he's punishing him and I'm asking for further advice other than therapy. That will come soon thank you all. If you have any direct advice to the situation great thank you in advance.
And ss is my problem bc he's hurting ds. We also have a baby, dd. This is definitely my problem also. We are the primary parents to all 3.
Bullying
I dont have bios, but my one brother bullied my youngest brother and it did not end well.
There are a few things you can do:
1. He doesnt get to be alone with your kids.
2. Nanny cams
3. Ive heard writing sentences works.
4. Take away all electronics
5. Therapy.
6. Kindness rewards. Make it a family effort. Rewarding kindess and making it a real focus.
7. Nanny cams.
Actionable tips
Thank you for actionable tips. We have started writing this week. It's so interesting what I found out that goes on in his mind. Writing he's very honest. I'm learning that of course he hadn't learned much compassion or empathy from his mother. So im seeing this is our job to teach this. Yesterday we talked about bullying and respect for others. He seemed very lost and confused.
Thanks for sharing these tips. I'm taking notes and we're doing some of these and there's been some changes. Thing is he's not terrible everyday and so that makes this make me feel he possibly van be helped. He's been nice and acting respectful for the most part. When these 2 instances happen we are thoroughly shocked but I and ds have to pay attention to the words he says. Bc he can also slip in verbal abuse. With these talks he can't remain unaware. Our next step as it has been for awhile is to get a 4bdrm so everyone has their own bedroom. But I do think separation may be best also. To keep them that way as much as possible. But in the meantime trying to teach what we can about kindness and respect. I like that. Thanks
IMHO, addressing a sibling who bullies their sib...
is entirely on the parents.
Mom and dad made it clear. If my brother and I ever fought, we would have to go in the backyard and each, alone, fight our USMC father when he got home.
We never fought. Ever.
First, because we cared for each other too much to ever take a swing on the other, and second, fighting dad was not a good ideal.
Because, mom and dad gave us clarity.
Daddy needs to drag his violent spawn to the back yard, get in his face, and let him know if he ever bullied his sib or anyone else ever again, that the bully would have to fight dad.
It certainly delivered a clear message to my brother and I. Though, i am 6yrs the elder and bullying has never been my thing.
Agreed
It can be confusing when 1 parent teaches violence and destructive behavior while the other says it's not tolerated at all here. He knows right from wrong and normally chooses right but then this time happened. Agreed dh as the dad has to enforce the right thing. Just the annoyance of ss having to go back to chaos. It's been addressed whatever going on over there won't be tolerated here.
In my house.. if my brother
In my house.. if my brother and I couldn't get along.. we were separated. Have you talked to your son about it.. what exactly is going on? Has your DH talked to his son about expectations on how we treat others in the house and we don't tolerate violence?
You do say there is some back and forth here.. and is it possible your son antagonizes his older sibling too? and older sibling loses his self regulation?
I have seen it in person.. one kid needles the other until there is an explosion.. I would be clear with both boys about expectations of behavior.
but it the older boy is consistently the aggressor.. and it sounds like mom is a problem and he may have issues from that.. therapy would be appropriate for him.
I'm not trying to victim
I'm not trying to victim blame necessarily.. just the reality is that people.. and kids are rarely all good.. or all evil (jeffrey dahmer excluded..lol). but there is still no excuse for resorting to violence.. even if antagonized.. people need to exhibit and learn self control.
Right
Ss is far from evil. I think he wants to be good. Honestly this may be random but it relates. He really only should be getting supervised visitation at most from his mom. Alot of the confusion is him going back to his mom. Usually he only acts off when he's just come back from her weekend. It's not everytime bit anytime he's acting unlike his moral well mannered self he's just came back from ther.e it's pretty annoying and I'm sure very confusing for him. When I say his mom needs a straight jacket I wish I were exaggerating. Her life is chaotic and that's just from the court cases she's stacking up to this day. So idk what he sees but it's really not helping matters.
Pre visitation behavioral degradation and post visitation detox
are not unusual.
My SS had both. A week or so before departing for SpermLand he would start to get whiney, lippy, etc... We never tolerated it.
When he got home, we dealt with about 2wks of post visitation behavioral detox.
We never tolerated that. As we learned this cycle, we fairly quickly landed on the zero tolerance model. We would sit hi down and make it clear that the rules in our home applied from the second he returned from SpermLand until he was on the plane back to SpermLand.
So, instead of demonstrable behavioral crap, at worst we would get mopey sullen faced Skid for a few days before and after he wallowed in the shallow and polluted SpermClan end of his gene pool on visitation. We could not stop their crap, but we could filter it out as much as possible from our home and family life by making it clear to SS that it did not fly in his real life.
This..
This is exactly what's going on. Dh had to say this very clear yesterday and he's said it before. Idk whats going on over there I don't care it's not okay here and you know the rules here. None of that is tolerated. So do what you gotta do to remember where you are bc it won't fly here at all. Whata crazy is he's been doing fine since April. All summer he's been a gem. This past weekend one of his siblings seem to be back on her care somehow so the mom is literally guilt tripping ss to feel bad. She messaged dh 1am the night before and said ss is sad and depressed here. Dh ignored it bc she's just confirmed she's been attempting alienation. While ss got his punishment he said he wanted to live with his mom for the first time ever. We see now she's putting crap in his head. Sounds like enmeshment and emotional manipulation so ss is having all these feelings he's confused about its coming out as anger and he's taken it out on ds. After dh realizes this that's when he told him the differences of the homes. Ridiculous what's happening
I had to have a transition
I had to have a transition time on Sundays night after they got back from the ex. About an hour to readjust to being in my home. I sent them to their rooms and they unpacked and what not. Kept it low key. You might want to consider giving SS some space to adjust. Tell him what it's for, not punishment but a time to shift his mentality to being home. It's a good life skill to have. A self imposed time out.
True
This is true about antagonizing behavior. When ss first moved in primarily 2 yrs ago. I had homeschooled both boys that yr. Behavior was a HUGE thing. So Yesterday it felt like homeschool again. I sat both down we talked about bullying and expectations. We've had these talks around this before but spoke on it yesterday directly. Violence is not tolerated. I also did mention poking is not gonna be tolerated. It is always ss starting the poking. Each time ds yells "can you stop!" Or "leave me alone!" Or "whatever okay! Idc!" We have talked about that previously that taunting not ok. Yesterday again I spoke on that. Don't do it at all when u know it's angering the other person. I speak to them both openly so both know it's not okay.
Dh works alot but he was hoke to listen and chime in at times. They really listen to him most so it was good he could back me up with that convo.
As soon as I get a car we have have regular appts with a therapist. This is very much needed and I hope ss openly speaks to them to share what's on his mind. He's the type yo quickly say everything's fine etc ro stop a convo. If he opens up this can be life changing for him. Thank you
Until you are comfortable
Until you are comfortable that SS won't abuse his younger sibling, do not ever let them be alone together. If DH has to rearrange his schedule to allow him to supervise his possibly bullying son, so be it.
They're sharing a bedroom?!
They're sharing a bedroom?! Omg, that's awful. Imagine having to sleep in the same room as your torturer and the door is closed.... that HAS to change. Please do not underestimate the effect your SS has on your DS.
I agree
I agree but we only have 3 bedrooms. Bedroom for dh and I, a nursery/play room for our babygirl and the boys are in a room.together for legal purposes. They can't share a room with a female. Before she was born they were in separate rooms. Ever since the first incident this yr the room door is not allowed to be shut. Their beds are on opposite ends. I agree this is not the best which is why the goal is to move to a 4bdrm soon. For now it's not everyday and we are being very vocal that the the last time was the last time. Thansk you have a great point and it is true.
Question?
Madam, Can this child be sent to boarding school? Would your DH allow that? And do you have the funds for that? I would suspect that even 1 year would help,straighten him out.
Yes
Dh is totally for a camp at this point. Last summer he was seriously.lookong into one almost 2hrs away in another state. This was before there was any of these physical incidents it was back when he would keep breaking things and continuously lie to our faces about it. It was infuriating and so now that it's come to this it is definitely an option. Ss isn't terrible daily I have to restate this part bc if he was just chaotic 247 he'd have even put out a long time ago but he has had alooooot of improvement. Even today I got his progress report from school and his teacher says hes kind and respectful to everyone there. So he's not a menace he had all As last yr. He used to do terrible in school when with his mom so I can't ignore that he has potential to be better. BUT yes violence cannot be tolerated. This has been disheartening bc he has improved so mucj in the past 2 yrs and for this to happen....we were confused and jus disappointed really. He hasn't edone anything since earlier this year but yea the last time was the last time. He will have to be removed if anything close to this happens again I hate to say that bc who wants another time to happen. It is possible but we wanna talk to him do the punishment, get therapy everything first and if none of that works he has to go for some time. Thank you.
You have to protect your DS
First of all DH has to get off his ass and get professional help for his DS. He needs medication to star with. And many years of therapy.
The boys should be is separated rooms at night. Can you make a bed room in the basement for SS . This is your DH problem..He must creat a safe bedroom. He took full custody of his DS so he must do something.
You are making this your problem. It's not. DH must understand..either he does something or you are out of the marriage.
You must protect your DS. This doesn't get any better with age it's only going to get worst as you let this go on. There coukd be mental and sexual abuse from SS. This is not to be taken lightly as you are doing now..
Maby SS has to go back to BM. He is playing his hand. He get BM as a prize.. REMEMBER mental health problems are past along to your D kids. BM has problems,, SS mental problems come from BM and it real .. and not going away with the old talking to. What DH looks like that all he doing. THIS IS REAL
I lived through this fortunately it was the youngest. The DR s. And there were many. Many said they couldn't deal with it. Along with Being in a institution for month half way house all of it It's just not good
. As they get older and have sexual feelings you get into trouble. All the meds will stop him from functioning sexually in one way or another. They want to be sexually activated . So they stop taking there meds . Then when girls reject him, and the normal one will. He will go crazy. Either finding a equal crazy girl and the circus starts or he will force himself on the easiest target your DS.
This is why you can not stay this way. You must protect your bio kids