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Did your attorney call out the BM? Or did you “play it cool”?

Biostep7777's picture
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Just curious how other's won in court cases over an extremely high conflict, parental alienating, manipulative BM who has tried false allegations (got thrown out) and just continues to show bad coparenting by making decisions without the other parent (joint legal custody) harassing, ect.. 

Did your attorney call her out? Did you "play it cool" until court then showed slow of her bad behavior? If you won your case.....what was the biggest contributor of your winning your case and how did you do it? 

ESMOD's picture

It's a tough call.  If your lawyer goes after her aggressively in a courtroom a judge could have the perception that people are just ganging up on poor little BM.. who is only doing wht is best for her children in a very difficult situation with that mean old EX and his new wife who is so mean to her and her little babies.

If your lawyer avoids showing real evidence of her causing problems.. the judge can't tell her to knock it off either.

I honestly think the best focus is to not try to point out the problems that the other person is causing.. but focusing most on how your husband is doing HIS best to be the best father for his kids.. advocating for health care needs etc..

There have been a lot of people who have come on here and wanted to have their SO's ex nailed in court for all manner of things that were "annoying".. and in many cases not real proven or relevant issues.  

The court's main concern will be the well being of the children in these cases... and your DH's lawyer can ask for modifications like mandatory use of OFW to make communication consistent and on-topic... reasonable limits on interference with dad's time... even reasonable extra curricular activity limitations.  

But I think it's fair to say that your lawyer should know the particular judge you will be facing.. and what to expect.. where that judge's sympathies and interests may lie.  I wouldn't want to force a situation where it looks like you are all ganging up on her.. even though in reality it seems to be the opposite case.

ESMOD's picture

By the way.. if you are following JustMakingTheBest's blog.. read her latest "she got away with it" she just posted.

Her husband's EX has violated the CO countless times.. has refused to send her SS for visitation.. they have fought these fights at great expense long distance in court.  This woman has mad PAS a fine art.. and the judge.. faced with BLATANT flouting of the CO has basically done nothing.. and this has been going on for a very.. very.. long time.

It can be very unfair at times.... 

Biostep7777's picture

Makes sense! Yeah it's tough because she wants to solely focus on their children and she completely dismisses me and my kids and makes DH seem awful for thinking of us all and not just their kids. She feels all his decisions should be about their kids and we can get the left over droppings, if there's any left. She feels anything he gives us takes away from her kids even though they are BOTH absolutely financially capable of giving their kids everything they could ever desire and there's is nothing they have ever misses out on. Not once. 
She is now saying that DH should forfeit his parenting time and let the kids be with her For his week in July because her family is visiting from out of state. She said she's concerned that him "blocking them" from seeing her family will only "further hurt" his relationship with the kids (manipulative much?) however, he told her that we have already had set plans for that week with my family. She said they need to do what's best for their kids. So, we are always left on this situation of her threatening to tell them "sorry dad is making you go with him and won't let you see your family" or they miss out on the family they have with us which of course, she feels much less important. But it's driving a huge wedge and they are being further alienation but how to prove it? We don't want her in jail, we just want her to STOP infringing on DH's parenting time and to stop telling the kids lies about him. She lies cooooooonstantly. Those kids hate us at this point snd they used to be very happy here. It's awful. 

CastleJJ's picture

Yes, JMTB has been through hell and back with her BM. Their BM even forged a health department document stating that SS would be quarantined for COVID-19 during  Christmas visitation, just to prevent visitation. JMTB contacted the health department, who proved it was a forgery, and the health department sought criminal charges.... Guess what, their BM got away with that too. They had years of visitation withheld and paid thousands for plane tickets only for SS to never come and BM got away with every damn thing. They are also not likely to even get money back for all the plane tickets and money wasted. The family court system fails fathers every single day, and the ones that get hurt are the kids. 

Our BM was/is also very crafty with her abuse and played the "what is best for SS" card as a means to limit visitation and continue to verbally and emotionally abuse DH via email. We had threats of CPS, constant attempts to control our household, daily emails from BM and constant demands for more money. The only thing that stopped BM was the judge telling BM that we didn't owe her any more money outside of CS and that "what happens on DH's parenting time is none of her business." Once that happened, BM tried to claim a few false allegations, which were thrown out, but BM ultimately stopped. 

While we didn't gain anything in court as far as custody or visitation goes, and yes, CS went up, it shut BM up. We are so thankful for that. We have little to no communication with BM. We also keep the peace going forward by not getting involved. DH takes his CO visitation, does his CO weekly phone calls, and pays his CS. That's it. DH does not try to "coparent" or question BM's parenting choices. We know that BM has shifted her game, trying to alienate SS with subtle tactics instead of alienating by abusing DH via email and threats. Instead of daily abuse toward DH via email, she now sends SS9 with a perfume covered teddy bear for visitations to "protect SS" and "provide comfort when he misses BM oh so much!" or sends an extra bottle of sunscreen with SS saying "BM said you didn't use enough last time. Please do better." BM hasn't changed her tune, she has just changed her tactics. BM has sole legal and physical so she can do whatever she wants and if her choices ruin SS, that's on her. We kind of dropped rope. You will never win with these HCBMs and even if you win in court, you will never stop the abuse from BM. 

Ispofacto's picture

We "played it cool".  It's a long story.  DH and Satan were already divorced before we met.  DH had to go back to change custody.  DH's lawyer is actually a pretty nice guy, money doesn't matter to him because he's just an employee of the firm, paid a salary.  He didn't hate Satan, just thought she was irrational, mental, and a poor parent.  So he was never a "shark", more kinda monotone and chill.  But Satan is an assh0le, and the courts here are fair and balanced, so she buried herself.

https://samvak.tripod.com/narcissistincourt.html

In the years leading up to trial, we refused to argue with Satan, ignored her most of the time.  That drove her nuts.  I selectively baited her into showing her ass, several times.  I also covertly provoked her.  I did some bad and illegal things.  Let's just say I exposed some of her fraud to Mealticket's family, publically exposed other things she did, targeted very few emails "from DH" to provoke rageful responses from her.  It drove her [more] insane.  I still torment her occasionally.  She's a serial killer, so if I disappear, you'll know why. 

You have to know when to hold them, when to fold them, when to walk away, when to run.  Naricssists have many weaknesses, which are easy to expoit.  You can play their own game against them.  Expose them, gossip about them, gaslight them, lie, feign ignorance, videotape them, refuse to comply with their demands, stare at them, taunt them, smile menacingly at them.  Throw social norms in the trash.  But when needed, be classy, calm, and angelic.

One piece of evidence was her phone records.  She called DH an average of 4x/day, for months, to threaten and belittle him, then went nuts, by text, when he reported her for harassment, and vindictively interferred with his visitation.  She got the police called on her a few times.  Her texts and emails were abusive and incriminating.  Medical records and attendance records proved neglect.  We subpeonaed the school and got a copy of a truancy letter the school had sent Satan that she'd kept secret from DH.  Proof of parental alienation, mostly by her own attitude and testimony.  It was obvious she coached Killjoy to hate her father, in fact Satan got caught listening at the door when the GAL interviewed Killjoy.  Then she got caught lying about that, and so many other things.

She joined the PTA at Killjoy's school, and only went to one meeting.  According to the meeting minutes, she only showed up to correct them on the spelling of her name, then she never attended again.  LOL.  We downloaded the meeting minutes.

She had to admit to being a highschool dropout.

She got caught doctor shopping to cover up things she was doing to undermine Killjoy's health.  The doctors saga, she admitted to taking Killjoy to a half dozen when she didn't like their diagnosis.  This is partly where I baited the emails in which admitted she wasn't following doctor's orders, but was mystified why Killjoy was sick.  We didn't even get to use everything in the medical records.  They indicated that she threatened the doctors, but we didn't even need to drag them into it.

She joyfully shared the litany of diseases she has.  Her favorite subject.  Phantom complaints that are all expected to be fatal.  She admitted she'd lied to DH and his family about having cancer.  MIL was present, so Satan was afraid she'd be called as a witness.

She bragged that she didn't work because she didn't "need to".  She smugly explained, between CS and Mealticket's income, she didn't have to work.  You know, because she's so desirable, men would line up to take care of her.  But then, she admitted Mealticket's kids were sleeping on the floors for his weekends.  We didn't mention this but, Mealticket was selling his plasma once or twice a month for cash, in addition to working fulltime.  Satan and Mealticket weren't married, we were.  We didn't bring it up, but I suspect Satan was having Killjoy call Mealticket "Dad" at some point.

Much earlier in the process, as an excuse for not working, she'd produced a document for the GAL where a doctor listed the medications she was taking for all her fake illnesses.  Fentanyl, methadone, etc.  Then she was uber pissed that the GAL shared that with the court.  She sprang out of her seat and shouted, "THAT WAS PRIVATE!!!!!!!"

LOL.  Oh, so much fun.

She tried to allege that DH is a monster.  He's got a degree in STEM, has been at his profession for more than 20 years, has zero criminal record, and is as docile as can be.  And their divorce decree doesn't have even a hint of domestic violence in it.  He'd given her custody and more than the legally required CS, plus so many extras.  She'd not wanted DH to find out she had moved in with Mealticket, who she'd been cheating with for over a year, at the time of the divorce.  But now she thought she could go back for alimony, now that she'd gotten what she wanted and he'd pissed her off, but the decree barred them from alimony.

Your lawyer should ask your BM questions that reveal her hatred of DH.  Then ask her if she tells the kids that.  Many times they will say sh!t like, "I have to tell them how evil he is, so they will be safe from him."  or "The kids hate their Dad".  Why?  How do they know he did X?  That's not true, why do they think that?

I'm not sure this matters but, I've always wanted to ask her how much money would satisfy her.

 

tog redux's picture

Your BM is smart, like the one here. She frames her abuse around what's best for the kids rather than personal attacks. It will be harder for you to trip her up because of that. 
 

Your DH needs to stop sharing anything. Why does she know you are planning something with your family? He should have just said,"we have a vacation planned for that week out of town" and let it go. 

Biostep7777's picture

Initislly that is what he did.  The kids told her. They tell her literally everything that happens in our house and about 75% of what they tell her is lies. After she knew we had plans with my family is when she started this crap. I hate that they tell her all this crap. 

tog redux's picture

Don't tell them. My SS didn't hear about our planned wedding dinner until we pulled into the driveway for visitation weekend and he saw his uncle's car in the driveway.  We knew that he'd tell BM and she'd find a way to withhold him.

 

Next time don't tell them or tell them it's a surprise. That's the only way to combat that and protect your time.  Then if you are obligated to send BM an itinerary, send it after the kids are in your possession. 

ESMOD's picture

We were pretty careful about what the kids heard/overheard.  And.. yeah... if we didn't want BM to know about something.. don't tell the kids.

It's really not even fair to them because they get put in a bind when mommy expects them to relay everything to her.. and if they don't they are being disloyal to her.. and esp when mom is the CP... the kids are most aligned with her because they rely on her for all their needs.. (emotional..physical).. and there is a higher stake for not displaying that loyalty to her than to the NCP.

tog redux's picture

Yep. We knew SS would tell her everything so he was on an information diet. He heard about our plans right before they happened. That didn't always stop her from interfering with things she knew about, such as the court-ordered vacation week, but it at least kept her from reacting specifically to certain plans. 
 

She did manage to ruin most vacations that she knew about though, so those vacation weeks are tricky. I'd tell the kids you aren't going anywhere for the week, then once you get them, tell them there is a change of plans and you are going to visit your family tomorrow, or whatever. 

ESMOD's picture

The good thing we had going for us was that when we took the girls places.. it was special for them.. because mom was a big talker.. no action kind of person... so they relished the few chances they DID get to go do fun things with us.  

Rags's picture

We went for blood.  It worked great.  Any time they twitched out of line with the CO we smacked them with it.

They tried the manipulation thing, but , they had neither the brains, the stones, the resources, nor the time to pull it off.

As for not wanting the BM in jail.  If she is doing things that warrant jail time then jail is exactly where you should want her.  The only antidote to manipulation a d lies is the facts and "mom is a lying jail bird" is about as powerful a fact that there is in countering manipulation.

skell76's picture

our lawyer would tear her to shreds, she did not.  When they were going through their divorce her attorney said you need to take this agreement, DH's lawyer will kill you on stand and you won't want to go through that.

Our lawyer knew exactly what she was doing and from the beginning we have always remained that we will maintain being reasonable and show her lack of ability to be reasonable.  

We didn't even have to, she submitted 40+ photos of SD in various states of undress, in the bathtub etc to show all the bruises she had over the course of time.  We had zero.  We maintained SD is a very physically active kiddo and bruises come with the territory we never once thought her mother was harming her.  (just one example) We were able to show the many emails dictating how DH was to parent, what he was to do in his home and she had to answer him. Which before me he would always just say okay. He's not a fighter and I finally told him it's okay to tell her to stop.  When you say okay, you're saying it's okay for her to tell you what to do. It's time to tell her to stop and when he did he did it respectfully and always would spin it "I trust you as SD's parent to handle parenting on your time" type deal

With the CPS reporting she would maintain she didn't report it and laywer said but yet DH was the only one interviewed and SD splits time 50/50 why would they look to the father unless advised. 

Our lawyer knew the judge well and that she was a former prosecutor and would be fact based and we kept it at that, just facts.  As our lawyer said we built this case brick by brick.  We were able to reasonably discount every item she said because throughout the course we maintained that (while in my mind I klopping her)

Kind of all over the place getting ready for a meeting but I'm glad our lawyer did it the way she did even though I would have loved to see BM get her ass handed to her. At the end of the day she looked completely ridiculous and her only reasoning for wanting full custody of SD is "to keep SD safe" lordy.  

1dad4kids's picture

Our judge didn't care about the he said she said crap. He didn't care about one parents lack of parenting or anything. All he cared about was making BM happy. 

In the end he had to agree to DH's case because we called in 2 experts who agreed with DH and the evidence was overwhelming.

I think it depends on your judge.

Rags's picture

We buried the opposition in facts.  When we went to court we had it all well organized and documented.  They usually had little more than a few scraps of paper.  We would make our case, they would whine and cry that we were lying, BOOM, we would smack them with proof that they were the ones lying..... lather...... rinse....... repeat.

We won, they lost.  Even batting 1000 I have never left a family law court feeling like I did not need a hitgh pressure scalding hot shower to blast the skeevy feeling off of my body.

Full disclosure, we were the CP side of the blended family equation.