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The the month of hell is almost over and just a few questions....

tankh21's picture

The month of hell is almost over next week will be the last week then it goes back to EOW until school starts back up again. DH has them on Thursday night and EOW plus holidays during the school year. BM has been quiet since something is keeping her busy. When the skids go back next week I have a feeling she will start her drama up again. So she sent a picture of a receipt when she took the skids to the dentist. CO states that she has to provide receipts, statements, etc however, we have always provided an actual paper copy to her. Is sending a picture of the receipt count as sufficient enough? She also didn't provide a copy of a receipt or statement when she took SS to the doctor. It's not DH's responsibility to look at the claim and reimburse her since she didn't provide a copy of a receipt or statement correct? I was under the assumption that some sort of paper documentation has to be provided not a picture or just telling the NCP that they owe you money?

Comments

lieutenant_dad's picture

This may be an unpopular opinion, but when it comes to routine and necessary medical care, NCPs just need to pay their fair, COed share without drama.

If BM sends you a picture of a receipt that has a date and patient name on it, pay it. If you have access to claims and the EOB, and you all know how much is owed, pay your portion whether BM turns in receipts how she is "supposed to".

Kids need medical care, and it is expensive. To fight over whether an NCP should pay a bill because a CP was a week late, or the receipt was a scanned copy/picture versus the real one, or the routine appointment (e.g. dental cleaning) could have been slightly cheaper elsewhere is just silly.

Yes, medical abuse happens. Financial abuse through medical procedures happens. However, if you know with relative certainty that a bill belongs to SS, just pay it directly to the doctor. It's one of the few times an NCP can actually see where their money goes directly to their kid, so don't fight over semantics.

ESMOD's picture

This is the right answer.  Whether you and he like her or not... she is owed this money (or the Dr. is owed the money directly) and to try to wiggle out of an obligation on a technicality is petty and it is wrong.

tankh21's picture

I get the kids need medical care and to be taken care of and that DH should just pay it. So when you have financial problems and you lose your job should the medical bills that BM racks up come first before paying your mortgage, groceries, electric, water? This is just a general question.

lieutenant_dad's picture

That depends. I bet if you call the office and explain your situation, they would set up a payment plan for you.

Ultimately, BM's credit nor bank account should take a hit becaude DH is unemployed UNLESS a new CO says your DH pays less. I would rather work with the doctor's office and owe them than BM.

Disneyfan's picture

When you lose your job, you go work at McDonald's, Target....so that you can fulfill your financial responsibilities while looking for another job in your field.

SteppedOut's picture

He probably would make more working than he recieves for unemployment (depending on your state).

Disneyfan's picture

Unemployment isn't that much.  I believe it is about $450 per week max here.

Working full time at minimum wage is more than you get in unemployment.

ESMOD's picture

our state it isn't only about 375 max (if you made more than like 38K/year prior) and even then... while they don't take taxes out, you will have to pay taxes on it when you file.  So, working at a Lowes for example as just a cashier would get you more than that if you worked a 40 hour week.  Waiters... bartenders can also make quite a bit more.

I guess it's a bit difficult to understand what his prospects are depending on what he used to do for a living.  was he skilled? unskilled? office? construction or work in a very specialized field or for a company that wouldn't have any comparable jobs in the area.  It sucks he has lost his job but he does have to figure out what he can do to pay his bills... if you weren't there, what would he do?

tankh21's picture

He is an architect. So wouldn't they say that he is overqualified for these jobs?

Disneyfan's picture

They don't have to know his qualifications.  

 

When I worked retail during the summers, Christmas season, or while looking for a teaching position, I never let them know that I had several degrees.  I just put the year I graduated from high school and left the rest blank.

nengooseus's picture

I think that the CP needs to provide proper documentation of the expense and show that it was paid for reimbursement.  So I would probably take the picture of a receipt as proof.  I would *not* pay for an appointment without any receipt, though.

As for what expenses get paid first...  I don't want to be out of compliance with a CS order.  Our BM has already filed a contempt charge against DH for not paying a medical expense (because she didn't provide a receipt!), so if I had everything I needed to justify it, I would pay that before everything else.  DH won't get sent to jail for not paying the electric bill in full, but he would if we didn't pay BM.  (Which is completedly Fd up, for the record).

tankh21's picture

But the CO states that the incurring party has to provide receipts, bills, statements etc. BM has failed to do this. I sure as hell am not footing these medical bills. I already pay for the medical insurance. If my DH gets slapped with a contempt charge that is on him. Do you think that DH would get slapped with a contempt charge even though BM is not following the CO?

lieutenant_dad's picture

Again, you're arguing semantics. She sent You a picture of the receipt. Your DH would have a hard time arguing that it wasn't sufficient proof. Same with him having access to claims.

My bank lets me take a picture of a check to cash it. If a bank will accept a picture of money as proof of money, you're going to have a hard time saying that a picture of a dated, named, and itemized receipt isn't sufficient proof.

nengooseus's picture

I don't think that having access to claims is enough.  If BM wants reimbursement, she needs to demonstrate that she paid the provider.  DH's CO requires that she be reimbursed directly.  Unless I knew for sure that she had paid, I wouldn't be giving our BM any money.

But the photograph of the receipt should suffice.  A judge will be pissed if you all don't pay based on that.

SteppedOut's picture

Again, might be an unpopular opinion. 

She did send a picture of the receipt. Does the CO specify "an original paper receipt must be provided"? I would think a picture or scanned copy would be sufficient. Do you have good reason to believe the picture and or scanned copy has been altered? 

If you are mad you have to pay the court ordered amount for your DH, I think your anger is being directed in the wrong direction (this time any way). You should be upset with DH that he isn't able to pay his share, not BM. SHE is not making YOU pay, YOU are deciding to help your DH with HIS obligation. 

tankh21's picture

I just says that incurring party has to provide a receipts, bills or statements. I guess maybe a photo copy is sufficient enough. She provided one receipt so she should get reimbursed for that I guess but the other one I think not she just said that she was taking SS to the doctor and that was it. She provided no documentation for that one. I am pissed off that BM thinks that DH has to follow the CO but it doesn't pertain to her. Everything is a fight with her and is very difficult. She is also supposed to notify of doctor's appointments before they happen as well and fails to do so. Of course if it's unexpected then that is different. It is BM's manner and the way she deals with things. My anger could be in the wrong place sometimes but I hate one-sided people.

ESMOD's picture

Your DH has the necessary documentation to know the costs are incurred.  He cannot avoid because you think her sending a picture of a reciept is not good enough.  I deal with multimillion dollar invoices and they are delivered electronically to the payor.  and they get paid. 

I get that you are frustrated because your DH has pushed pretty much all the financial responsibility on you.  I get that you are frustrated that he isn't earning any money and you could rightfully resent him for this.  However, your husband should have had an emergency fund that he could dip into for situations like this.  The medical bills are valid expenses.  It's too bad that the kids can't hold off on their medical costs until he gets back to work.. but that doesn't make him any less liable to pay for them.

Bottom line is that his ex isn't out of compliance with the CO if your husband has documentation of the billings either via the EOB or a picture of a reciept.  She may not do other things in compliance with the CO.. but this isn't really one of them.

Now, to the question of whether YOU should pony up since your DH doesn't have the money to do so?  That's a choice you all have to make together.  Which item has the worse consequence of non-payment?  If you decide BM is not a worry and that she or the DR can be put off.. then you deal with the fallout from that choice.

TexasPickles's picture

Our BM used to send us the hinkiest receipts on earth. Half the time they were fake, including medical. Or she would bundle several months worth of bills, worth hundreds of dollars, and send them with a note demanding immediate reimbursement. 

She dragged us to court and our judge said she had to provide us with actual receipts and not her fake copies, and that she had to send us the bills 30 days.

If you are ponying up the medical insurance you should be able to verify medical through eobs. If she provides insurance, she should have to provide eobs for reimbursement. No eob. No reimbursement. 

SteppedOut's picture

Your BM submitted obvious fakes, this BM is providing a photo AND they have access to EOBs. 

TexasPickles's picture

Just a heads up...no they weren't obvious, especially at first. And despite admonitions from the judge she continued that nonsense until the kids aged out.

tankh21's picture

Both of the skid's are on my medical insurance as well as DH. DH gets unemployment right now and still pays CS and is current. I told him that he needs to pay the medical expenses that BM incurs but that I am not helping him pay for them.

tankh21's picture

So I just checked the insurance claim and it says patient responsibility is 0% however, BM is claiming that DH owes her money!

CompletelyPuzzled's picture

Did she pay a co-pay or co-insurance up front?   If you are the one providing medical insurance, you should be able to find out if she had to pay either of those, as she would be responsible for them before the appointment.  As far as sending pics, both my CO and my DH's CO with BM state that sending photocopies or pictures is sufficient.  I think you are splitting hairs.  I find it hard to believe that she took him to the dentist or doctor without paying some type of upfront fee.  If you are so suspicious, have your DH call the doctor/dentist and ask what was paid.  It really isn't hard to find out.

tankh21's picture

But why does this have to be so difficult? BM could just provide us with a receipt and then boom it's done. She just sends a message taking kids to the doctor you owe me money for that and you need to pay it. I get that it's easier to call but she is creating unnecessary drama that doesn't need to be created.

ESMOD's picture

she did provide you with a reciept.  Now you can contact the Dentist to see if it is a valid reciept and if she falsified it, you can explore your options at that point and possibly make a change in that the medical office must bill your DH directly and those are the only bills he will pay.

tankh21's picture

For the dentist yes, she took a picture and sent it to DH in a text message. When she took them to the doctor she just said taking the kids to the doctor and said that DH owes her money and needs to pay for it no receipt or anything.

ESMOD's picture

he does have an EOB for the doctor visit?  if there is an amount due.. he can pay his half directly to the DR.  Or.. he can ask to see a copy of the bill from her (she can send a picture).  If there is no amount of patient responsibility on the EOB then he tells her that according to the EOB there is no patient responsibility so he doesn't have to pay (unless the EOB has no bottom line due because it should note if the BM paid a deductible or some amount towards bill.)... there is a difference between not having any responsibility at all and not having a balance owed since she paid a deductible in the office.  In fact, I seem to recall that I don't get bills at all if I don't have a balance owed... even though I may have paid something in the office.  Now I will agree if she paid in office, she should have kept a copy of the reciept they gave her but if the EOB notes an in office payment that should be sufficient proof she came out of pocket for something.

Yes... it says she is supposed to provide.. but if your DH has proof she paid something, that falls into petty territory on his part to demand she paper chase when he has all the information he needs to pay.

ESMOD's picture

The onesided issue has really nothing to do with BM.  You do all the worry and carry the financial load and get kid responsibilities that aren't yours forced on you by your husband.  You are getting a raw deal... from him.

nengooseus's picture

Is part of disengagement.  

If he doesn't have the money to pay for his kids' medical appointments, it's his responsibility to figure it out, not yours.

ESMOD's picture

Yep^^^ this right here.

It really isn't up to you to figure out how he will pay for the kids.  What you do is expect that he contributes X to the household budget while he is unemployed.  If he has other expenses that come up then he has to figure out whether he can afford them.. and if he can't what he will do about it... (hint... I bet there is a game system that could be sold etc..)  Now, part of his solution might be to come to you and ask if you could accept less money because if he doesn't pay the EX.. she could cause a court case and other costs that your DH will have to bear. (and that means less he has for the household).  So, you make your decisions on the basis of what you think is best for you.

If your DH doesn't have a job, he needs to be pouring over the budget at home to see where you can tighten a belt.  Cancel internet.. cable (or suspend until he gets a job).. maybe sell some things of value he owns.... it's up to him to figure this out.  IF he doesn't want to do that then he needs to try to get a job and maybe not just the exact thing he was doing before.. but it shouldn't be hard to beat what unemployement pays.

nengooseus's picture

CP is in control of whether a skid will go to the doctor/dentist and there's no requirement that they coordinate with the NCP.  I agree that's not fair.  Unfortunately, it's the way things are, and as NCP, your DH needs to figure out how to deal with it, because it's only going to get worse.  Braces will be needed, as will myriad other things that your DH won't be in charge of.

Meanwhile, you are overfunctioning here and worrying about things that aren't yours to worry about--probably because your DH isn't worrying about them enough.

tankh21's picture

It states in the CO that both parties must confer with the other on doctor's appointments etc. So I am undestanding the language in the CO wrong? Does that mean DH has to let her know that he is taking the kids to the doctor or dentist but she does not?

nengooseus's picture

For seeking medical care even if they don't confer with the NCP, but the NCP may not get the same leeway if it's challenged in court.  As long as the doctor/dentist provides a letter of medical necessity, which they will almost always do, it's like a get out of contempt free card for the CP.

notsofast's picture

She sent you the receipt.  Stop saying she didn't.  A picture of a receipt is valid for the IRS, it's valid for FSA accounts, expense accounts and all sorts of reimbursements in business, education and government.  Any judge would find that you (or your DH) was being the difficult one if you say a picture of the receipt isn't the same.

Now, if you think they are being altered... If she knows how to alter a picture of a receipt then she also knows how to photoshop it and reprint it, such that asking for the hard copy won't help.  That's when you verify with the doctor's office AND the EOB together what the amount owed was.  Sometimes you go to the doctor and they estimate that your portion will be $123, but by the time the claim was filed the deductible or oop was met and the amount goes down or disappears.  Or the service turns out to be covered completely because of the way it was billed.  So just because she may have paid at the beginning doesn't mean it was the right amount to pay.  The correct amount may be higher, too, if the service was billed differently.

Then you make a payment arrangement with the doctor's office only.  Two reasons: a) you know your part of the bill gets paid exactly what is due and b) it discourages any future shenanigans on her part because BM learns the money isn't coming to her anyway.  If she's already paid the doctor the full amount, she can get a refund for half her amount from the doctor.  Set the precedent that you will always pay the doctor directly and then you can know that the doctor is being paid your half and there isn't incentive for BM to fib.

tankh21's picture

The receipt was for the dentist she did not provide a receipt for the doctor

lieutenant_dad's picture

When was the doctor's appointment? Is she asking for a certain amount of money, or is she just giving a head's up that money will be due? Do you know who the doctor is (the answer is yes because you have access to the EOB)? Has DH called the doctor to ask how much is owed, how much has been paid, and for a copy of the receipt?

Should BM do what she is COed to do? Yes. If she won't, then your DH needs to take the bull by the horns and do his parental duty, even if unemployed. The only way he might get out of paying it is if you all take it to court, she is indeed found to be in contempt, and then you would have wasted hundreds on an attorney for what will probably be a <$100 bill.

BM won't ever not be high conflict. This is your DH's punishment for breeding with crazy. It's on HIM to handle.

tankh21's picture

4/20 was the date of service so I guess she took SS to the doctor on 4/20. It said it was paid on 4/24. Her text message was very vague. She said that she needed the money now for when she took SS to the doctor. He asked where the receipt was and nothing back.

lieutenant_dad's picture

So your DH calls the doctor, asks for a copy of the receipt, and sends BM a check with a note/email and a copy of the receiot saying:

"BM, I contacted the doctor's office, obtained a copy of the receipt (attached), and have sent you $X as my portion of reimbursement per the CO."

This shows BM that your DH won't playher games but will do what he is COed to do for his kids.

twoviewpoints's picture

Is your DH still on a year to year work visa? How long can he remain unemployed before it causes trouble with his visa status and opens up a whole other set of problems for him? 

tankh21's picture

Yes he just renewed it in March. I don't really know anything about work visas I just know they cannot deport him however he cannot come back into the US if the leaves.

StepMamaBear6's picture

My opinion is probably going to be unpopular. 

For the dentist, she sent you a receipt.  Call the insurance company and ask if she paid any portion of that amount or if that was the amount BEFORE insurance paid.  For example, my dental insurance charges me NOTHING (in copays or coinsurance) for my children to have a cleaning every six months.  It is included in my premiums.  However, if I were to ask for a copy of the receipt for the services, the dental office would print me a receipt for the total cost of the service because the insurance company HAS NOT PAID yet.  There is NO WAY on earth I would pay a bill if the patient's responsibility says "$0".  Even if the patient made a payment at the time of service, it would still show up on the bills as "patient's responsibility."  At the bottom of the EOB it would say, "Amount due."  If the patient's portion was paid, the amount due would be zero.  If the patient hadn't made any payment, it would state the amount due.  If the patient's responsibility was zero, then the amount due would also be zero -- meaning no copays or coinsurance was incurred.  

As to the doctor's bill, it is not the father's responsibility to chase down a receipt.  If the mother wants to be reimubrsed for purchases she made that the father owes on, she needs to get a receipt and provide it to the father. If she made no payments, but payments are due, she needs to provide a bill and say, "You owe half."  This whole, "You are the father and it is your responsibliity to track down any liability that may or may not have been incurred on behalf of your child" is absolutely ridiculous.  The court order says mother to provide a receipt and father is to pay half.  Period.  If not receipt is provided, mother does not want to get reimbursed.

My husband has always had custody of his children.  We never provided his ex with receipts for medical care.  She wouldn't have paid and it was not worth the drama.  We didn't need the money and neither did the children.  It was not her responsibliity to check to see if there were bills out there she owed half of.

Make her produce a receipt or don't pay.  Just my $.02.

Pear's picture

both my and my DH’s employer require us to submit receipts electronically.  This means they are either scanned or we use a phone app to take a nicely trimmed and framed image.  

 

If it is is good enough for large corporations and the IRS, it is good enough for child support accounting.