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Why would anyone with assets get married these days?

paul_in_utah's picture

I see this a lot on mano-sphere type sites, where I read stories of men who get taken to the cleaners in a divorce.  There is usually a high initial cost in the divorce, followed by stories similar to what we see here - endless arguing over alimony, CS, and "extras" for the kids.  Many men have sworn off marriage because it opens them up financially to tremendous loss.

In my case, I was engaged to my SO at one point, until she decided that she was "entitled" to an "upgrade," and tried to find herself one of those bad-boy alpha males that she has always thirsted for.  After getting her back blown out my multiple Chads over year-long whoring spree, she eventually realized that none of those guys would take care of her or her kids - they were only after sex.  Realizing she couldn't make it on her own, she reluctantly came back, and I reluctantly accepted her.

Come to find out, during the time we were engaged, she never actually wanted to get married.  She routinely talked shit to her female friends about how "she wasn't looking to get married any time soon," and clearly thought she was doing **me** a favor by agreeing to get married.  Even though she was (and still is) broke, and I was the one taking all of the financial (and, as it turned out, emotional) risk in asking her to marry me.  Any time we had a fight, she would take off her engagement ring, since she clearly held it in contempt, just to highlight her disdain of the idea of marrying me.

Given all the above, I can't see what I would ever marry this person.  She brings nothing to the financial side of the relationship, she doesn't think highly of marriage, and is mostly with me for my resources.  So it's a fairly easy call to never get married to her.  But, it also got me thinking - is there **any** woman I would trust enough to marry?  Even if I trusted someone, what is the real upside to getting married?  I can't see one.  I see a lot of financial (and emotional) risk in making it offical by marrying someone, but what would I get out of the deal that I can't get by living with someone?

I would note that there are some women in my area who are better off than me financially (doctors, lawyers, a few executives), but women like that are either taken, or would date guys higher up the food chain than me.  Therefore, I don't really see a scenario where I'm with somebody who has more money than me, and they are the one taking the risk.

So, throwing it out to the group - does anyone with assets see any reason to get married any more?  I sure don't. 

Comments

caninelover's picture

SO and I are getting married in 3 days, so I guess I can opine on this.

We lived together as 'partners' for a few years (4-5).  We were fine continuing that way, but let me back up.  When SO and I first got together, and started to get serious (but before moving in), we had conversations (as most couples do, should).   Inially SO said he was fine comitting to a one on one relationship, but was hesitant to re-marry.  Me, having never married nor had children (by choice) - I was fine with this.

Fast forward 5+ years, and all the Bratty McBratFace drama in between, we still love each other and are our fave peeps to be around.  When the pandemic hit, and we were stuck at home together, for us is just amplified how much we love each other and how compatipible we are with each other.  So, last year SO proposed and we are set to marry very soon.

Note - we have pre-nup in place (house is mine, will remain mine, all other assets - we bring in what we have, we leave with what we have (if we leave)).  I wouldn't marry being stupid about it.

But - SO is the love of my life.  I do want to be his wife, call him my husband, and grow old together (hopefully with minimal interference from Bratty McBratFace.

I like these thoughtful, pensive posts, paul in utah.  Keep them coming Smile

Birchclimber's picture

Congratulations on your upcoming nuptials, Caninelover!  Wishing you many years of PEACEFUL wedded bliss!!  **Sending you a Virtual Bouquet of Flowers**

Rags's picture

As my dad told me when I met my incredible bride after my divorce from my adulterous cavern crotched skank whore of an XW...

"You can either take another shot at making a life with someone, or, go through life with a series of partners.  What do you want to do?"

Dad is the one that moved me to marry my incredible DW (wife #2) of nearly 28 years. We have made a life together, raised a good man together, and have lived an incredible life together.  Nothing is guaranteed but it is looking pretty good for us so far.

Since the balance sheet is important to you, in the the 28yrs we have been married (our anniversary is in 5wks) I have worked 25 of those years, she has worked 18 of those years.  She was a SAHM for 3yrs until our son (my former SS who asked me to adopt him, which we made happen) started school at 5yo and had a 7 year mid career sabadical while we lived overseas for my career. I was hit in the semiconductor bubble implosion and did not work for year while she supported our family as her career was growing.   Upon our return from overseas primarily so she could re-launch her career I took a 2yr hit on my career and did some intermittent consulting as opportunities became available. 

Over the course of our marriage I have earned ~3x more than she has though together we have accumulated a notable net worth.  Our nearly 8yrs overseas was a joint decision that gave us significantly more in our "pockets" due to the tax advantages and the fact that we had zero demand on our income as all of my overseas assignements were 100% supported by the companies I worked for. They provided housing, transportation, food allowances, regular travel from assignment location to point of origin, etc, etc, etc...  During that time my DW worked as CFO for a number of charitable organizations as an unpaid volunteer.  She is a graduate degreed CPA.  We both completed our MBA after we married and she finished her dual major BS prior to finishing her MBA.

An equity life partnership and a happy life with an amazing partner is not about $$$$. It is about making a life together.

So, do you want to take a real shot at making a life with a true equity life partners (not this nasty POS you are tolerating to take advantage of you currently)? Or do you want to keep doing what you are doing and move through a series of partners of the moment?

I would not have missed a second of the life DW and I have built together. Though.... when we married all we had was my newly printed BS in engineering, two 8yo cars, and two apartments full of college furniture.

Good luck.

SeeYouNever's picture

I know in the manosphere somebody is going to say that "all women are like this" but I'm going to disagree. It annoys me when disgruntled men go around preaching that all women are materialistic scum because they had a bad experience with one of the worst.

If you were in a bad relationship you need to reflect on why. 

I'm going to point out that you picked her and you took her back after she cheated. To borrow a term from step life "you signed up for this!" And you signed up for a 2nd helping after you know how much it sucked. You could have bailed on the relationship when it first turned.

Sure your ex was horrible but you picked her. If you pick women based solely on looks don't be surprised if they use you solely for money. Perhaps if these disgruntled men chose women that have careers, have assets of their own, self respect and healthy relationships with their friends and family they wouldn't have to worry about being treated like garbage. 

Did they pick a bad partner beccause they were shallow and put up with bad behavior because they were insecure? 

The men that fill the manosphere need to go to therapy. 

 

 

la_dulce_vida's picture

The men in the manosphere might be saying all women are like that, but many men do not say that, thankfully.

I don't need my partner financially and he doesn't need me financially. We've discussed marriage now that we're in the 4th year of our relationship. I'm not ready and I don't see what purpose it serves. If anything, for two poeple with sufficient assets, it introduces some degree of risk.

I'm sad for you Paul_in_Utah. I'm sad that you've chosen to settle for this woman mooching off of you. I'm sad you think you can't attract and keep a high quality woman who wants to be a true partner in life.

I wish your self esteem were high enough to drop this leech and look for a nice woman who doesn't want to use you.

I was married to a leech and it's soul crushing. I'm so glad I dumped his ass and moved on to someone who doesn't want to use me.

SeeYouNever's picture

My husband and I are similar, both have assets and good income. I wanted to get married because I wanted to have kids with him in the context of marriage. If I didn't want kids I would have saw no need to get married. 

la_dulce_vida's picture

Exactly! We are well past the years of having babies. Our kids are all adults. I really don't see much purpose in it at this point, but it's a nice thought to have someone WANT to marry you.

notarelative's picture

I have to ask, after reading your blogs, why are you with this person? You are clearly unhappy. You have no respect for her (or she for you). Why do you stay in this situation? 

 

 

paul_in_utah's picture

A fair question, and one that gets asked sometimes.  Short answer, she is the least bad option.   Maybe we are using each other.  

FWIW, I didn't go into it solely for her looks.  We do have some common interests and have fun together quite a bit of the time.  When she is not in a narcissistic rage she is usually pretty fun.  And, at the risk of being materialistic, the only other girls who will go out with me are all pushing 300 pounds   Set aside the aesthetics, these are unhealthy women who will have major issues related to their weight.

But yes, the lack of respect (due to "settling" for me) is always in the background.  She expects way more attention, compassion, and affection that she gives me   Not saying she offers none of this, just not nearly as much as I do for her.

There is also the specter of her daughter always hanging over us, since there are usually only short breaks between her "catastrophes."

The decision I may ultimately have to make is whether this life is preferable to being on my own and completely alone.  

StrawberryPie's picture

FWIW, being alone is so much better than being in a bad relationship. And being alone is not the same as being lonely. 

Not sure if your question was rhetorical or not - but, I have assets (had to pay my ex-husband alimony) and being married to me is important.  I want to travel through life with someone who is committed to me in a way I want to be committed to them. But I also believe in pre-nups Smile

paul_in_utah's picture

A pre-nup is essential.  But at the same time it is admitting you think then relationship has a real chance of failure.  The pre-nup I would need would probably suck the joy out of a marriage.  

caninelover's picture

Mental health is a commitment to reality.  Same with the pre nup.  Not fun to do, but once done it provides much peace.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Not all pre-nups are "...admitting you think then relationship has a real chance of failure."

My Dad remarried at 86yo (84yo SM). They needed a pre-nup to ensure their assets go where they should. The house they live in is SM's and to be inherited by her children. If she predeceases my Dad, he has the option to live there the rest if his life. But he does not inherit that home nor can he will it to anyone. The same goes for the two homes Dad owns. They did not get a pre-nup because they thought their marriage would fail. They're in it for life. Period.

As are my DH and I. We each have "assets" that should not be inherited by the living spouse for a variety of reasons. 

You sound terribly cynical. What happened that makes you so negative? Sad.

Winterglow's picture

I agree. A friend of mine signed a pre-nup that her ILs had insisted on. She felt offended at the time that she had even been asked to. However, both of her husband's parents were among the highest income and richest people in the country. They were divorced and both had married partners who were also divorced so they were painfully aware that divorce happens and neither was prepared to see their family fortunes vanish in a divorce settlement. There are times when it is just common sense to cover your back. 

paul_in_utah's picture

What you describe would be more in the real of "estate planning" - sending assets where you want them to go.  Kids, charities, etc. 

I view a pre-nup more in the realm of "protection" - from a cheating spouse, gold-digger, etc., who is only looking to get paid.  I've seen too many examples of guys getting taken to the cleaners by their ex-wife, who then is set up quite nicely with the divorce settlement.  And often is bankrolling a new boyfriend with that money.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

In return, I've seen too many examples of women getting taken to the cleaners by their ex-husbands. Myself included. Men are also cheating spouses and gold diggers.

A friend of mine has 3 more months of alimony payments to make before she is free from bankrolling her cheating exh and his girlfriend. Living in the house she bought. 

Women go through the same thing. This is not unique to men.

la_dulce_vida's picture

I think if your assets are unbalanced the person with fewer assets is ALWAYS going to feel like you're planning for the demise of the marriage and trying to screw them over.

However, for two people with substantial assets, it MAKES SENSE. I don't want my partner's money and he doesn't want mine. So we see eye to eye on this matter. I support his assets going to his daughter when he dies. The same for me and my kids.

If we marry and build a life together, any assets acquired jointly would go to the survivor if someone dies. But all we've accumulated before we married (if we do) will remain separate. It's good sense.

paul_in_utah's picture

Yeah, I agree with all of that.  My situation is not like yours.  My SO couldn't rub 2 pennies together if her life depended on it.  I'm not rich, net worth is around 1.5 mil, but that is not bad for where I live.  I only have myself, no family to fall back on, so I need to protect myself

ESMOD's picture

To be fair.. do you not have very much to offer if your options are so limited to your current SO and a few morbidly obese women?  I mean.. yes.. for most women being around 300 pounds will seriously put you at risk of medical issues.  But, you don't think there is a "pudgy" smart, nice girl out there that might see something redeeming in you?

Why would a professional woman not be interested in you?  I have a masters degree, a professional certification and a white collar good job and have dated a mailman, concrete man, commercial fisherman, pipe fitter, truck driver.  (all different guys when I was in my 20's and thirties).  I married the fisherman.. who is actually a USCG licensed captain.. but did not finish college (though he is smart.. lol).  I'm not a perfect size 8.. but I am also not 300 pounds... met my husband in my late 30's.. when he was technically semi unemployed.  

But, he is interesting, likes to do fun things.. travel.. try new foods.  He is smart and likes to learn new things.. is well spoken and has a good sense of humor and treated/treats me like gold.

You don't have to just settle.. but you may have to change your idea of what the perfect woman is for you.. and go outside your comfort zone to meet her.  

I don't think your choices should be as limitting as you think they are.. but maybe you know yourself better.. I don't know.. your current settling situation doesn't seem ideal for you or your SO.

lieutenant_dad's picture

I'll be blunt and short because the "mano-sphere" can kiss my arse.

First, you're SO would never need to marry you, or apparently be faithful, because she gets all the financial benefit from you without a marriage certificate. Sure, she *might* get more out of you with it, but now she could still be cheating (you're gone enough it would be easy) and she still gets paid. It's a "why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?" situation with you being the cow.

Second, I'm the one who got hosed financially in my divorce. I took the initial L so that my XH didn't get half of my (minimal because we were young) retirement and because I wasn't interested in fighting over what we had. I ended up with most of the debt, which I lived with my parents for a few years to pay off. Perhaps if his broke arse had actually worked versus taking random days off because he hated his job we could have afforded the lifestyle he wanted to become accustomed to (and maybe he shouldn't have married someone who was going the public sector route in school/career).

My DH and I now keep our finances separate because we both got effed in our divorces. If we were to divorce, the only things we'd have to split are the house and cars. Once the baby is here, it'll be slightly more complicated. Even then, I'm not interested in taking him to the cleaners. We both benefit from having good jobs, we both save for our retirement, and we both have our own investments (well, he does; mine are getting set up this year). We're not insanely wealthy, just try to be smart with the money we have because we both know what it's like to get hosed.

You're going to find the evidence that women make out like bandits in divorce if you're only looking at sites from a man's perspective. There are plenty of stories from the other side, too. Women just tend to get hosed in different ways in divorce - like having deadbeat exes who don't pay child support.

If you don't want to play the game, that's fine. But don't sit here and point the finger at women because your SO is a cheater and user that you won't quit and act like marriage is just there to eff over men while women walk away carrying bags of money. I'll be damned if I get compared to your SO because we share the same type of genitalia. I won't have you devalue my worth and the worth of every other woman because you picked body and booty over a stable, independent woman. Yes, there are women out there who aren't rolling in dough who make great partners and aren't interested in playing games in marriage and divorce. All because you can't bag one of us doesn't mean that we're mythical unicorns that the mano-sphere has never met. We just don't want men who only value us because we're pretty and a decent lay. Your money means sh*t to me when I have my own, and if that's all you bring to the table, you're going to find yourself with a real shallow dating pool.

paul_in_utah's picture

Well, that was blunt but not short.  That was an inappropriate level of vitriol and projection.   I've never attacked you for any of your posts, and that respsonse was not appropriate. 
 

Sorry to hear that, like me, you chose a bad partner in the past and got left holding the bag.  But don't attack me for your bad decision - I didn't attack you for yours. 

And you are right, despite many efforts over the years, I have been unable to "bag" a high-value, decent woman.  I'd love to meet such a person, but none of them want to go out with me.  So I'm either left with dregs like my SO, or I embrace "loneliness with dignity."  Thst option is becoming more realistic all the time.  

wolflady's picture

What do you mean you're left with dregs?? What reason do 'high-value, decent woman' give that they won't go out with you?? You come across to me as really bitter and unhappy and not high opinion of women so maybe this is the vibe you give off and why they're not interested.

paul_in_utah's picture

Regarding your question about high-value women, they don't tell me anything, beacuse they never acknowledge me.  They don't swipe right on me, and ignore messages I send on apps like POF where anyone can talk to anyone else.  As far as in-person meetings go, I have always struggled due to my looks.  Not that I haven't tried, but I simply don't have the physical bearing necessary to be successful with in-person approaches.  Work is not a good option, as my industry is 85% men, and I wouldn't want to risk an office romance anyway, due to potential HR issues.  So I can't meet women that way either.  Throw in the fact that I am on the road 300 nights a year, and you can see that meeting women is difficult for me.

And since I get a lot of flak on here for stating that **one** of the things that I find favorable about my SO is her looks, I'll spell out what I would look for in a "high-value" woman, since it is a lot more than looks:

Intelligence

Successful career

Financial Independence, or at least some approximation thereof

Educated

Teaches her kids to be self-sufficient and doesn't Disney-parent them

Not a Narcisissist (especially not a Covert Narcissist)

Common Interests, such as favorite shows, travelling, going to concerts, doing things to make holidays special, etc.

Being at least moderately attractive would be nice.  I am sorry, but I am not attracted to super-morbibly obsese women.  If the ladies on this site are honest, they don't like overweight guys either.

Being interested in the physical aspects of a relationship

Being satisfied with me and not always on the lookout for an "upgrade"

I don't really think this list is all that unreasonable, although I know some will criticize my preference to date women in "under the 300 pound" category.

Yes, I am bitter because I have not had good experiences with women.  The "dregs" that I refer to are women with major problems such as substance abuse, crippling debt, lousy kids who won't launch, the afore-mentioned super-morbid obesity, etc.  Even then, these low-level women still perform a very careful calculus to see if I am the best they can do.  If they do decide to settle on me, they don't treat me well because they resent needing me.

In hindsight, I probably shoudl have just stayed married to my ex-wife.  We had problems, such as her hoarding, spending, Disney-parenting, and unreasonable need to restrict my movements and interactions with other people, but it was still better than what I dealt with after getting divorced.  I am seriously considering going back to my ex-Wife and just being companions, with no (or minimal) sex life.  Alternatively, I may just embrace "loneliness with dignity" and do nothing but work. 

Of course, my real preference would be to get together with a "high-value" women.  They just don't want me.

Stepdrama2020's picture

Did I read this right you are on dating sites while you are married? 

If not my apologies , but if you are then your SO isnt the only loosey goosy in the relationship. Also if that is the case, no wonder decent women dont swipe in your direction. Some women can detect easily with the internal sleezo detector.

 

paul_in_utah's picture

You didn't read that right.  

1.  I'm not married.

2.  I'm not on dating sites.

I was referring to the time I was single, and ended up meeting SO on an app.  The better girls were not interested.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Are you looking for high IQ intelligence? Someone can be extremely intelligent, but have limited interests which is a turn-off. 

Are you looking for a degree? I have no college degree and make more money than my veterinarian sibling.

I can honestly say I like a man who has meat on him. My DH has a Dad Bod and I find him incredibly sexy and appealing. Frankly, just thinking about my Dad Bod hubby is making me salivate.

If you or someone you date is "constantly looking for an upgrade", neither of you is a satisfactory partner. 

Maybe you should embrace "loneliness with dignity". Consider making ALONE, BUT CONTENT something to strive for. Do some self-reflection. Take up a new hobby or two. Try different things outside of your comfort zone (although I do not advocate jumping out of a perfectly good airplane...). 

The loneliest I've ever felt was when I was lying in bed next to my psycho exh, realizing we were leagues apart mentally. I would rather be alone than ever feel that way again.

paul_in_utah's picture

I would love ot meet someone intelligent.  My ex-W was very intelligent.  That is something that I miss about her.

And to be clear, I don't have some crazy standard about only dating skinny women.  Ex-W was around 235 during our marriage, and gained weight to get up to around 300.

My SO was about 205 when we met, lost 50 pounds when she was chasing bad boys, and then gained some back.  She is about 175 now.  Hardly a skinny minnie, but definitely more attractive than the other girls who give me the time of day.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

I never said you're looking for skinny women. I was responding to your comment "If the ladies on this site are honest, they don't like overweight guys either."

My DH is overweight. I honestly find him incredibly sexy and attractive. Midwestmrs is married to a 275lb "burly" man. She likes them big. *unknw*

stepmomnorth's picture

FWIW I think attraction is certainly important. Whether we admit it or not it plays a huge part. You have to feel that attraction to a potential mate there is no way around it, and everyone has their own type that they are drawn to (looks etc) and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just how it is. 

Aniki-Moderator's picture

This is so true, stepmomnorth! Both physical and mental attractions are key to making a relationship work (IMO). SS22's wife weighs over 300 lbs. A medical condition and corresponding prescriptions make it impossible for her to lose weight. But that doesn't stop her from being active. They went on a 15-mile mountain hike and SS had to ask her to take breaks because he couldn't keep up! And SS22 is 6'3", 175lbs, and a long distance runner.

ESMOD's picture

That's a pretty tall order you have for a woman there.  Because I am assuming you are looking for "LOOKS+" so looks.. plus those other attributes.  Would you date a plain, pudgy (not 300 pounds.. but what about 180?) woman who posessed all the other traits you admire?  I mean.. yes.. there probably needs to be some level of attrraction.. but I guess women may be better at not putting as much on physical as we might other traits.. like a good sense of humor, intelligence... etc.. believe it or not.. money is not the end all be all for many of these high quality women you would like to meet.  Mostly my basic hope was that my partner would be self sufficient.. ie not need "my" money to live.  other than that?  money was so far down on the list.  IN fact.. my husband of 20 years was actually not the physical embodiement of what I pictured for a guy I would want... he looked very different.. but his other qualities made him attractive as a package.. you know?  

And.. you work with mostly men.. but many of these men have wives right?  do you ever socialize with them? do you ever give any indication that.. hey.. know any nice girls?  

But.. as long as you remain in the relationship you are in? you are not available to even look for anyone else.. and you can't expect someone to just nicely fit in to the slot she vacates... immediately and seamlessly.  

And.. you want better.. BE better!  Make yourself more attractive.. update your wardrobe.. get your hair styled differenly.. lost hair? maybe consider a hair piece if it will give you confidence.. if you are short.. lifts in your shoes.. if it's really physical that you lack.. maybe even go to the gym.. joint in some fitness classes.. try out yoga (lots of women there too).... Make yourself more interesting.. take a cooking course.. look into "meet up" events in your area.. join a "solo travel" club (though yeah.. you travel a lot.

And.. maybe that's part of your problem too.. you travel 300 days a year?  how do your think any woman is going to want to be with someone that is gone that long?  Are you nearing a point where you might want to take a job that is more location stable?  I mean.. my husband has worked offshore and away from home for a decent amount of our time together.. it's not ideal.. and takes a special kind of independance and loyalty to make it work.  if I were to think my dH was out there shopping for an improvement while he was on the road?  I would not be with him.

and if you are.. look for locations where the demographics are in your favor too.. (don't go to alaska for example.. very male heavy environment)

I will be a little blunt too.  You seem to have a very high expectation listing while you don't appear to have much to offer in return.. a guy who doesn't have "looks".. is gone 300 days a year.. and a predisposed notion that most women are either gold diggers if they aren't already well off.. and that well off women are all snobs.

IN your case.. I doubt that online dating is really going to be that effective.. if you don't have that "hook" of looks it's harder.. if you truly are a 'great guy" and were SINGLE (which you are not at the moment) perhaps your friends and family would be inclined to introduce you to nice ladies that ticked at least a few of those boxes off?

THere is also the old fashioned match maker type service.. maybe look into that as well.. but be honest.. what can YOU provide a partner (not just talking materially).. because you can't expect a champagne lady.. when you look like you drink pabst.

 

advice.only2's picture

So is a 300lb man acceptable?  I mean if there is a weight limit the guy should comply with that as well.  You can't say you don't want a "fat chick" and be a "fat dude".

la_dulce_vida's picture

I have to say that all the attributes you're looking for are very superficial. You don't really mention character traits which gives the impression you're looking for an object (something that serves a purpose to YOU in your life) and not a whole person (someone you want to love and have a true partnership with).

I have similar items on my list when it comes to a man, but the most important things are character. Is a man trustworthy, kind, honest, affectionate? Is he funny? Is he resilient? Does he know how to work hard? Does he know how to relax? Is he open-minded or unbudging. Does he use people or is he self sufficient?

Yes, looks matter, but they are not the most important thing.  My partner is tall and attractive (to me) at 60+ with a dad bod and is balding a bit. He has a nice face and smile. He's financially stable, intelligent, funny, shares many of the same interests. He's kind and slow to anger. He went to college but didn't earn a degree. He had what some might consider a blue collar job. We did not meet on a dating site, but I have used them and if you ever get out there again, you should have someone help you with your dating profile to improve the quality of women you can attract.

Personally, I think your attitude is probably your greatest impediment. You don't see yourself as worthy of someone high quality. Instead, you settle for the "least bad" person you can find. And I think you exaggerate greatly that the only women who are interested in you weigh 300 pounds. I think that your category of "300 pounds" likely includes women who weigh much less and might just be a bit overweight. You exaggerate to hide the fact that you prefer thinner women, so you classify all women in plus size clothing as being "300 pounds."

Everyone has faults and issues once you get to a certain age. You're going to have to make concessions. There are things about my partner that I'm not wild about, but my love for him is so great, they are tolerable and sometimes endearing.

If you're on the road as much as you say you are, you're already pretty much alone, but somehow, belonging to the leech who lives in your house makes you feel better about yourself instead of having nobody "waiting at home" for you.

I really wish you'd work on your self esteem and find a nice woman to spend some time with.

lieutenant_dad's picture

It was totally appropriate when you insinuate in your post that 1) women aren't worth marrying because men get screwed in divorce, and 2) the only women who are of higher value than you are those with higher incomes. Let's also add in the phrase you just used of not being able to bag a high-value woman that you think you deserve but none of them want to date you.

Your posts comes across as vitriolic and very "nice guy" toward any woman not sporting a six-figure income, and you're not the first who has insinuated that because he has money and assets that somehow equals that he should be rewarded with someone else who has money and assets.

I'm not bitter that I chose poorly the first time around. I learned it was a big mistake and righted that wrong. My DH was unemployed when we were first together, and now he makes nearly 80% more than I do. What I valued in him wasn't money or success. It was him understanding my flaws and helping me work through them, being family-oriented in the same way I am family-oriented, being a giver with his excess resources when he has them (sometimes to a fault, but that's a different story), and doing what he needed to do to get the job done even while unemployed (his first job while dating me was as a bartender, and he HATED every minute of that job but did it until and took extra shifts until he got his schooling squares away). Add in that he respected my opinion, thought I was the most beautiful person in the room, and has been maybe too chivalrous when we go out (the man figuratively loses his mind if I'm walking next to traffic on the sidewalk). He also shares similar political, personal, and parental beliefs, and he sees me as a fully independent person who can do my own thing without needing him. Conversely, I offer back what I'm given because he also doesn't need my assets. Even when he was broke, he'd tell me he couldn't do something versus expecting me to pay and left it up to me if I wanted to stick around for his broke behind.

His assets are last on my list of things I care about because I don't need them. I have my own. Many women are in the same position as me, not just doctors and lawyers and other six-figure earners. I don't think you grasp just how condescending your post came across, and how you equated women who aren't in those high income categories as unworthy of your consideration as an equal partner. If you're saying that you can't find a "high-value woman" so you'd rather have the "dregs" versus be alone, then perhaps it's your personality needs a serious adjustment. You've been in a transactional relationship with your SO for as long as I've read your posts, and so long as you keep reading into "mano-sphere" BS that os an echo chamber of other men in similar situations, you're only ever going to assume that the ONLY women who exist are users or the elite who are already taken. THAT mentality - which is on full display here - will turn the "good ones" away because it's toxic.

But I agree - wasn't exactly brief in my initial or this post.

paul_in_utah's picture

I could see how you could make some of those assumptions.  I do tend to boil things down on here to what I feel are the most relevant items.  There is a lot of context missing, things I don't talk about as much, such as the things **I** did to be chivalrous when I was first with my SO.  Going to get her coffee in the morning since she's not a morning person.  Helping with her kids homework.  Giving her shows a try even though I normally don't watch that kind of stuff.  Texting "I love yous" and other messages during the day.  I'm all for the "true and romatic love" type of relationship.

What has happened, both with my SO and a few others I only dated briefly, is I came to realize that it was all a lie.  It was a fantasy of a loving relationship, being fed to me so that I would drop my guard and open my heart.  Once that happened, I was expected to open my wallet.  That's all they ever wanted.  In the case of my SO, it was really more love-bombing I suppose, because she is also looking for supply, in addition to money.

So yes, my posts tend to focus on money and resources, since that is what these women have reduced me to.  I don't think that I'm entitled to a good woman just because I have money, but I talk about that because that has been my experience - being taken advantage of by women who need financial support.  I don't hate women, and I don't think all woment are heartless gold-diggers.  BUTTTT....the ones I have encountered have been that way.

I have a very loving and caring nature, but that has been shriveled to a crisp in the blast furnace of my last relationships.  I would love to be with a nice woman who has similar values, political views, interests, hobbies, etc., who actually enjoys spending time with me, and isn't just using me for money.  Not pretending to enjoy spending time with me, so that she tricks me into caring about her.  I am also open to being involved with a woman with kids, if they are raising them the right way (i.e. not Disney-parenting them).

lieutenant_dad's picture

A couple of things to remember:

1) The purpose of dating is to get to know someone and if you are compatible. You found folks who only cared about you for money. Those become women you dump and then look to see what red flags existed so you don't fall for them again AND know how to dig them out before you open your heart (and wallet).

2) Are the shows you watch and hobbies you have woman-friendly? I don't just mean do women participate. My DH and I are both nerds. We both like board games and tabletop RPGs. Game shops have open game nights, but they aren't always super friendly toward women. There are certain games that I'll only play with my friends or at certain shops because I don't want to put up with a-hole men who think I shouldn't be there because I encroached on men's space. If your hobbies and activities are in a similar vein, or even if they are just made up of primarily men, you should expand what you're interested in or find clubs/groups that are more diverse.

3) Apply #2 to your television and movie habits. Be diverse in the shows you like, particularly those that have higher women's viewership. You may find something new you enjoy while also having something new to talk about.

4.) Your list of what you want in a person isn't unique. That's what most people want. That's what most people look for. You need to reakize few people are going to hit every mark, so you need to set some deal breakers and some flexibility. Would you really turn down a bigger woman who meets all your criteria except being slender? If not, then talk to anyone and everyone you can. You may be finding you're throwing out good fish on the surface before you even give them a chance.

5.) Go to therapy to work through your bitterness. I mean this wholeheartedly: women see that, and it's a red flag. Our first assumption is that you're abusive or toxic. We're sorry others hurt you, but we don't want to be the one left carrying the emotional damage from those other women.

Seriously, get out of the mano-sphere of the internet. Like STalk, it can depict the worst of the worst and leave you feeling worse than before. 

paul_in_utah's picture

I will fully admit that I have a lot of nerdy interests.  When I meet a woman, I keep that on lock-down and make sure that I talk about normal (i.e. non-nerdy) topics.  Depending on the woman's own tastes, I may gradually ease into revealing the types of shows I watch, books I read, etc., but I do that slowly so as not to scare them off.

I am definitely open to watching other types of shows, and have done that with both my ex-wife and my SO.  Haven't always liked them, but I have found some shows that I really like, that I wouldn't have tried otherwise.

I have had other people recommend things like cooking classes, cycling clubs, etc., but those aren't practical now.  I may try them when I get off the road in a few years.

Regarding deal-breakers, I think you make a good point.  My deal-breakers are cheating, financial infidelity, and Disney-parenting (I know, I know, I am living with a woman who violates 2 out of those 3).  But going forward, if I do start over, the woman would have to hit those 3 marks.  Yes, I may have to accept large women, if they are good in other areas.  I mentioned in another comment that I might get back into a "companion"-type relationship with my ex-wife.  She is very large now, but some of the other problem areas have improved over the years.  For example, Disney-parenting no longer applies, as her kids actually launched.  Financial issues would not matter, since we wouldn't be married. I could work around the hoarding if we keep separate residences.

lieutenant_dad's picture

Does your XW even want you back? Do you think you can adequately provide her with what she wants while also getting what you want?

This is what I mean by transactional. You're making it seem like you're setting all the rules in the relationship and how it will develop versus actually having a conversation with the person you're thinking of entering a relationship with. It's not fair to your XW to take her back as a companion/roommate if she wants an equal partner and husband.

Basically, women aren't there to cure your loneliness.

paul_in_utah's picture

We've had discussions.  If we were to be in the real of "companions," we would mostly focus on the things we used to do that we enjoyed.  Travelling, going out to eat, watching movies and shows.  I'm sure she would want spending money to fuel her shopping habbit, and I supposed I'd have to be willing to help some in that area.  She has indicated an interest in something like this.

ESMOD's picture

What you really should be doing if you don't want what you have.. is to become single.. and then you are free to look around.  any looking around while you still have your foot on "home base" doesn't count... it's not valid.  And.. just about any good quality woman would have zero interest in a guy that is out there looking to upgrade from his girl back home.  "but i'm just with her for convienience.. let's date anyway" uh.. nope.

Have you asked any of your friends.. relatives.. male and female.. what you could be doing to improve your chances? have you asked any of them to help expand your social circle?  sure with your schedule it's more difficult.. but I met my DH once acouple of days before he went on a 2 month voyage.. we talked every day.. and started dating when he came back.. it IS possible.. but not while you are currently entangled.  and perhaps getting comfortable with yourself might help you anyway.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

But Paul, haven't you allowed "what these women have reduced me to"? I have been used for financial support (certainly easier to see in hindsight!), but refused to believe that's all that was out there. I'm certainly no supermodel, but personality has always been my most attractive quality. 

Have you given any thought to trying to work on changing your mindset? Try to see the positive over the negative, be more optimistic than pessimistic? Now, don't get up and say "I'm positive this will be a crappy day"! Wink

I spent a lot of years with bad men (after psycho exh, I picked 2 bad men). What changed was ME. I realized that what I was putting out there AND accepting was why these bad partners were in my life. I worked on fixing myself and was happily single when DH and I bumped into each other. *unknw*

StepUltimate's picture

Unsure how much my divorce will ultimately cost, but STBXH is jonesing for CA$H and astonishingly shameless. 

Would not personally marry again.

TheAccidentalSM's picture

I was fine for years with not being married but eventually I realised that if something went wrong I wasn't going to be next of kin.  So if DH was in hospital, I'd have no rights.  If he died, I wouldn't necessarily be told about the funeral arrangements let alone be the one organising the event.  That's when I decided to get married.  

Winterglow's picture

We lived together for 12-13 years and I wasn't interested in getting married until we bought our current house. When I realized that, if he died, as I was considered to be a total stranger to him in the eyes of the law, his siblings and his parents (and probably aunts and uncles) would have to waive his inheritance for me to get his part of the house (and I wasn't sure all of them would ...) AND I would have to pay 60% inheritance tax on it (scary!), well, if that isn't motivation to get married for you, I don't know what is! So we got married!

paul_in_utah's picture

That's a good point.  In my case, not sure it would be an issue.  I have no heirs and no living family members.  I own the house and pay for everything related to it.  She contributes nothing.  So if I feel like leaving it to her, I'll quit-claim it to her.  I would have to investigate tax implications of leaving the house to someone I'm not married to, not sure how that works in my state.  

TheAccidentalSM's picture

The inheritance laws where you live are a bear!  I could have sorted that via a will but would have found it much harder to manage a crisis or end of life care.

stepmomnorth's picture

I think that what you focus on in life is what you create in life for yourself. What you reap is what you sow. While there are bad apples, (men and women) I think you're focusing on some bad experiences and letting it shape how you view people overall and letting that taint your perspective.

Why get married at all? If you have to ask then it's not for you, which is fair really. 

paul_in_utah's picture

A fair point.  I was just seeing if there was something I was missing, regarding why people would risk their assets by getting married.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

I honestly never thought about "risking my assets" when DH and I got married. Assets had no bearing on our desire to make a legal commitment. Apparently, we don't have enough stuff! Lol

stepmomnorth's picture

The easy, one sentence answer is that it's because they feel they will be marrying their soulmate for life. However I guess we all know it's more complicated than that and many end in divorces. When I married my partner, I was marrying for life. He had differing ideas when he left me. Protecting assets if there is a huge income disparity does make sense. As much as we love to believe marriage is for life, sometimes it's not the case. 

lieutenant_dad's picture

DH and I don't believe in marriage lasting forever given our divorces. We didn't marry for love. We married because, for $125, we have a chosen Power of Attorney and next of kin versus those decisions being left up to family members we don't fully trust to have what we want at heart. For $125, we get some tax benefits that outweigh cost of the marriage certificate. For $125, we have two pools of credit to pull from. For $125, socially our relationship gets more respect and we have to jump through fewer hoops to prove that we have the right/privilege to certain information.

Sure, we COULD lose our asse(t)s in a divorce, but since we're both fairly equally asseted, it wouldn't be a huge gain or loss either way. If there were a lot of assets, we would have signed a prenup. But for the $125 marriage certificate, we get more long-term benefits.

shamds's picture

Get married. Bear in mind lets say you never marry but live in a committed relationship for a decade or more and one partner dies, some countries would deem that partner ineligible to inherit.
 

Some countries do no recognise defacto relationships which are illegal and so people are required to get married to live together and can get arrested for having a baby outside of marriage like Saudi Arabia and uae etc which has alot of expats

also, not all women and men are cheating hoes, its just st has alot of stories on cheating partners and spouses

for some couples, the female partner may want to take a few yrs off work to have kids etc. also we need to stop putting women as being solely responsible for household duties (thats a sexist ideology). 
 

when a couple has kids, raising young kids is a fulltime job especially with a newborn/infant so couples need to work together 

that being said, there are some with a narrow minded view on marriage and relationships with typical sexist views 

when i married my husband, I resigned from my job and moved overseas and we focused on having 2 kids which we had within 2.5 yrs of marriage. I took some years off to raise them and finish my university studies which i have another 2 semesters to go and i will be back at work fulltime. 
 

both my kids are in school everyday now so I've finally got more time to focus on my studies. This is a decision me and my husband discussed, we were separated over 2 yrs due to border closures and flight caps in australia as my husband is an essential worker overseas on contract and my country has a higher standard of education and opportunities compared to my husband's country. Its not been easy but we have not taken one another for granted though we've had at times strained relationship we've been committed to making a collective decision regarding our future and our kids. 
 

now there are spouses/partners (male and female) who leech off the other spouse/partner like an unlimited atm, provide nothing towards the relationship but milk them for all they're worth but not everybody is like this. 
 

my husband was married to a leech for 16 yrs before divorce was finalised and had separated 15 yrs into the marriage and they had 3 kids the exwife wanted nothing to do with. Hubbys credit card was maxxed every month, she had an affair with her high school sweetheart before my husband separated from her and abandoned her kids after marrying him when he divorced his wife to marry her. Both exwife and new hubbys family pity my stepkids because they know how effed up the exwife and new hubby are that they do their best to maintain a relationship with them. It was too toxic to be around my sd's especially and they guilted their dad for marrying and having 2 kids with me but realise now what a piece of crap mum and stepdad they have and all me and my husband wanted was just to have an inclusive family that accepted and respected one another. I'm not here to steal their dad from them. Sd's abandoned their dad for over 5 yrs and we met, fell in love, got married and had 2 kids during that time. My husband shouldn't be guilted for marrying and having 2 kids with me and its selfish of sd's to do that. 
 

Sd's realise how lonely it is to be abandoned and despite them scapegoating me and my kids for why they have toxic crap relationships with others whom they can't respect properly, our 2 kids just wanted to be friends like they are with their much older cousins. 
 

st is a place that we vent our frustrations but not all families are truly like how you explained. Plenty of people get into blended relationships/marriages and don't realise how complicated it can be. I'm sorry yours is such a toxic abusive one which is all too common. But there is no point staying in any relationship or marriage where one or both partners aren't equally contributing to its success and future

JRI's picture

Paul, we choose partners with our rose-colored love glasses on, or I did, at least.  But once we mature a little, we also look for those other factors.  Women with kids MUST do this.  So, altho I loved being with DH, would I have moved in and married him if he weren't also a good provider and excellent father? No, I wouldnt.  Does this make me a gold digger?  I dont know and dont care.

We all have transactional relationships, imo.  So, I was getting a good provider and excellent father who was also funny and who I like to be with.  (Notice I don't use the word "love" since it is open to many interpretations).  He was getting a stable, good looking, sexually generous person who he liked to be with and who respected him and laughed at his jokes.

On the negative side, I also got a drinker who isn't handsome.  He was getting a woman with no money, 2 kids and an ex who paid no CS.

You have a woman who doesn't spend as much time with you as you wish, uses you financially and who has needy SKs who won't launch.  However, she's still there and you often find her attractive.  She got a man who is gone a lot and who isn't happy with her or her kids.  But she's still there and often has fun with you.  You two are both old enough that I doubt either of you will change much, for better or worse.

Perhaps its time to accept what you have for what it is. Good luck, whatever you do.

paul_in_utah's picture

That's a pretty sober way to look at things.  Obviously I come on here to complain and vent, but there are good times and good things.  I just have to decide if those are enough to stick around, or if I should just be alone.  Or possibly get into a "companion"-type relationship with my ex-wife or someone similar.

JRI's picture

I vent and complain, too.  Lol.  One thing to consider is " the grass is always greener...". How old are you, Paul?

 

paul_in_utah's picture

49

Winterglow's picture

The grass is always greener where you water it

notarelative's picture

Fairy tales often end with and they lived happily ever after. Does that mean they never argued, that everything was blissful every day? No. It means that there were/are more good days than bad .

Marriages/ long term relationships need mutual respect. Marriages/ long term relationships take work -- from both partners. 

JRI's picture

If you are 49, Paul, I would consider that a now or never time.  If you were younger, I'd lean more toward suggesting that you look elsewhere.  If you were 55+, I'd say stay with status quo due to upcoming age-related issues.

One big prob you'd have finding a new partner would be all your travel time.  Most ladies would want someone around more, I'd guess.

 

CLove's picture

I myself married naively for love, but also practically for the reasons mentioned by others.

If this one doesnt work out, I see no other reason other than medical that I get married. I dont even see me getting into a committed relationship for a very very long time.

hregal2011's picture

I divorced my ex husband who I call my practice marriage'.  My husband also left his 'practice marriage' after being cheated on.  We had similar stories-married without making sure we were equals.  Now not everything can equal but your other half has to be able to bring something to the table to contribute and be at your level mentally.  We both did not have that and were busting our asses to pay all bills and care for kids.  I've been married now 9 years, together 10 and we both have good jobs and similar intellect (where one may  be weaker the other makes up for).  
I'm  not saying you need a highly paid genius (I am neither! Lol) but you need an equal.  They are out there I assure you, but definitely difficult to find.

Both of us used to high five over the 'f*ck marriage' club mentality after getting screwed in divorces but eventually-I strongly encouraged him to do it and we did.  A major thing is knowing that we have had Bad Relationships so we appreciate the good (big or small) in each other.

don't give up

Ispofacto's picture

Why would anyone with assets get married these days?

Health insurance

If the tax benefit outweighs the tax disadvantage

Advantage in custody cases

 

Kaylee's picture

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Beauty is only skin deep.

Both old sayings, but with more than a grain of truth to them.

Paul, shift your focus from looks and success, to honesty, kindness and independence. What if you met a lady who was not model like, financially wealthy etc...but was compassionate, genuine and caring? Who liked you for being you...I hope you wouldn't pass her by in the pursuit of what you consider to be the "ideal" partner.

I think you need to spend some time on your own, working on yourself, before you jump back into the dating game, or go back to your ex wife (bad idea).

I am single by choice, and happy. Just give it a try.... split from your current SO and be on your own for a while. 

Figure things out....

thinker's picture

You listed attributes of a 'high value woman' - what do you have to offer?  In dating, people typically end up with a fairly equal match, unless one person has really low self esteem.  So if you're an educated professional in good shape, you should be able to find your equal. 

Regarding ever getting married again, how old are you?  Personally, I see no point in getting married if you don't plan to have kids together, but perhaps, like you, I'm cynical.  500% if you marry anyone ever again and have assets of your own, get a prenup.  If your intended declines, she's not the right one for you.