Enmeshed children
At his last mediation with BM, DH agreed to give up spring break every other year, so Skids could go to stay at BM’s parents winter home in California. DH agreed because he thought it would be good for Skids to spend time with their grandparents. Mind you, these grandparents live 10 minutes away from Skids in the non-winter months, but whatever, according to DH, BM was always concerned that her parents didn’t pay enough attention to Skids.
Since that time, without fail, BM’s mother books the tickets for the trip so they interfere with DH’s visitation weekend. According to BM, the tickets are always the “most convenient” for her mother. Not sure what that means, but I do know that this grandmother (who is in her 60s, so certainly not elderly) couldn’t get herself out of bed in time for a 10am flag football game, so apparently, she is easily inconvenienced.
This year, DH has a lawyer - because BM is again threatening to take him to court over nothing - so in her effort to seem “cooperative”, BM told DH via email - with her lawyer copied that Skids were coming home on the Saturday of his weekend, so he could pick them up at the airport or she would pick them up and bring them to our house, DH said via email, with both lawyers copied, that he would pick them up.
Today, SS13 texts and says “I need to talk to you.” DH calls him and he says, “please, can mom pick us up at the airport.” DH says, “no, I’m going to pick you up, I’ll see you on Saturday.” SS13 starts to cry and DH says, “I have to go now. I’ll see you on Saturday.”
Last year, the same thing happened, except it was BM texting to say “please, please, please can I pick them up at the airport?!” Again, DH said no.
I have two thoughts on this: 1) what 13 year old boy is so desperate to see his mother that he’ll cry over the phone about it (he’s going to be with his dad, it’s not as if a stranger is picking him up). This same 13 year old boy has to check in with his mother at least once a day on the two days he is with us every other week. When he was 9 (the age at which I met him), he did not need to do this. He would stay with DH for a full week and not talk to BM at all. 2) if both BM and SS13 are so desperate to see one another, why doesn’t BM just ask her mother to book the tickets home in time for BM and SS13 to tearfully reunite before SS has to spend the weekend with DH.
So much drama. I also wonder what will happen when this SS is grown, because no woman will want a man who is so enmeshed with his mother.
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Comments
Sounds like typical PAS from
Sounds like typical PAS from a GUBM.
He's not desperate to see his
He's not desperate to see his mother, he's desperate to get her to quit pressuring him to convince DH to allow her to pick him up at the airport. As the poster above said, it's typical alienation tactics.
This
Either mom is nagging the kid to death or has promised a trip to paint ball (whatever) on drive home
Yep, could be both.
Yep, could be both.
I agree that, that’s part of
I agree that, that’s part of it, but I think he’s so enmeshed at this point that he can’t see the difference between BM wanting this and him wanting it.
My SS went through this too.
My SS went through this too. And BM would promise him wonderful things if he went along with her, and pressure him for literally hours if he didn't.
The thing that really baffles
The thing that really baffles me about PAS and enmeshment is how these "parents" never seem to notice that they are ruining these kids. They are so eager to be the "favorite parent" they don't even care if the kid is permanently damaged in the effort.
I wonder that to. BM ties
I wonder that too. BM ties both kids in knots in different ways all to ensure that she is the favorite parent and DH is the “bad guy.” This SS takes everything as a personal affront to BM. He regularly says to DH, “why do you hate mom?” When DH says, “I don’t hate your mom.” He says, “that’s not true dad. She always tells us how much you hate her.”
The other one goes into such a tailspin whenever she contacts him because he feels like he needs to please her, so he demands that DH does what she wants.
On the one hand, I feel bad for them because it’s mental abuse on her part. On the other hand, I know I can’t fix it, so I just have to step away for my own sanity.
They lack empathy and don't
They lack empathy and don't care as long as their own needs are met. You are wise to step back and protect yourself. I did the same once it became clear that my SS would be totally alienated eventually, and he was.
BM here would say the same stuff - SS wanted to bring his dog over to our house and BM refused, saying: "your father hates dogs and he loathes me." Ummm, we have 2 dogs and SS has seen how DH treats our dogs. But he always believed BM and he still does at 19. The Cult of Mom is a powerful one.
I agree with tog redux’s comment
they become little mini narcissists and you can still end up with mid 20 yr olds who lack total empathy for others.
with pas, they are brainwashed and conditioned so much that basic logic and common sense they cannot see. They lack those critical thinking skills. Bm can be doing something horrible but its justified. She could kill someone and its justified by your skids as “she was under stress, dad ruined her life by divorcing her etc..
Well, I was talking about
Well, I was talking about these BMs having no empathy, but alienated kids often act just like her, well into adulthood.
After a flurry of emails from
After a flurry of emails from BM this morning about this issue, I said to DH, “soon enough SS13 won’t want to come to our house at all.” DH basically responded by saying it wasn’t his choice.
About an hour later, DH asked me, “when will the kids be old enough that I can explain to them that what their mother is doing is wrong.” I said to him, “you’ll never be able to explain this to them because she has trained them to think that you hate her, so they won’t believe a word you say.” I also told him that they may need to figure out how terrible she is the hard way when they experience failed relationships. I asked him when he realized his own mother was manipulative. he said he didn’t realize his mother was manipulative until I pointed it out to him. I pointed out to him that there were several instances far before I came along where he knew his mother had crossed a line (about 18 years ago, his brother was planning to marry someone he met abroad and MIL told him she would disown him if he married that “nasty” woman - whom MIL had never met, by the way). DH knew that was inappropriate, but apparently didn’t decide it was part of a pattern with his mother. So, yes, DH ended up with BM because he was trained to put up with abuse...naturally it follows that SSs will end up with someone just like their mother. Hopefully, they will not have children with those women.
My SS19 was alienated for
My SS19 was alienated for over 3 years, and now he is dating a 26-year-old woman who could only want such a young man for one thing - CONTROL. He still has no idea his mother is controlling, so he's falling right in with a controlling girlfriend. Out of the fire and into the frying pan.
I think what you say here is
I think what you say here is spot on. My boyfriend's mom is very controlling and although he saw it from a younger age his sister didn't recognize it until she was in her mid 20s. Their mom has a lot of narcissistic tendencies and the sister was the favorite child so I think that's what kept her from fully seeing the big picture. I see a lot of similarities between boyfriend's mother and SDs BM.
I watched the video on YouTube recently about alienation and they were talking about having light bulb moments. They said most kids who deal with alienation start seeing more patterns when they get out on their own and compare their experience in childhood and families to other people's. They also said it's not very effective if it's somebody who's tied to the situation at all bringing it up because they just see them as being mean or hating the other person and it really takes someone who's totally outside and doesn't know the situation at all to get them to start questioning things.
He regularly says to DH,
He regularly says to DH, “why do you hate mom?” When DH says, “I don’t hate your mom.” He says, “that’s not true dad. She always tells us how much you hate her.”
"OK, son. Give me examples of how I hate her. When did I last do something that proved I hate her? " - hit him with brute logic but make him look for the proof of what he's saying.
I've begun referring to SD15
I've begun referring to SD15 as "Norma Bates". She's internalized and become her BM.
A friend recommended a book to me, I haven't read yet. It makes sense that disordered people model disordered thinking to their children. The framework for cognitive thinking is created by the primary caregiver. These kids will be disordered for life.
The Developing Mind, Second Edition: How Relationships and the Brain Interact to Shape Who We Are, by Siegel
I’ll check that book out.
I’ll check that book out.