Controlling BM strikes again
SD is on swim team and when she has away meets, she is supposed to ride the bus with the team. Well, we asked the coach if on our weekends, we could take her directly to the pool, because we don't live in the area and it is hard on our family to drive from point A-B 45 minutes, then point B-C 30-60 minutes, when we could just go point A-C 30-45 minutes, not to mention we have a few conflicts. Coach said, "sure, no problem, just let us know when that will be happening."
The eve of SD's first away meet, my fiance emailed the coach (CCing BM) to say that we would be taking her directly to the pool the next day and that he would call both coach and BM to confirm, just so everyone's on the same page. He waited to do this until SD was with us, because if we had done it ahead of time, BM would not have let her come with us. Well, BM doesn't answer, he leaves a voicemail. Coach answers and lets him know the meet's been cancelled. Cancelled? Why didn't BM call to let us know? She's the girls rep, responsible for letting parents know, and she didn't even let her own child's father know about this?! Strange. No, actually, typical of her. Turns out, she had called both our cell phones from the pool and neither of us answered because we didn't recognize the number (we screen our calls), so why didn't she leave either of us a message?! That's what voicemail is for!
So, BM gives my fiance a whole lot of grief over going behind her back with the coach and breaking the rules by not taking SD to the bus. She said "if you are unable to get SD to the bus, then she can stay with me Friday night and I will get her to the bus. You do not have my permission to take SD directly to the away pools." We just ignored her because we don't need her permission.
Fast forward a few weeks, SD finally has her first away meet in 2 days and the coach emails my fiance to say that SD has requested that he email him to say that she wants to ride the bus. He went on to say that it is good for the team to bond, etc. and I totally agree, but why couldn't SD tell her dad this herself? Well, because we know how BM operates. She (and I'm speculating here) probably made SD feel incredibly guilty over agreeing to not take the bus on our weekends and just raised holy hell over it and put her up to asking the coach to ask Daddy. (All part of her ruse to "prove" how abusive and controlling Daddy is, that SD can't even discuss things like this with him because she's afraid of him. None of it true!)
Now, our dilemma is that we (fiance and I) are in a play, which happens to be 5 minutes away from Saturday's meet and the timing is perfect to get her there. We can't, however, get her to the bus because the departure time is exactly when we're on stage and it's a half hour away from the theater. I feel like telling BM that she can come get SD at the theater and take her back to the bus since she's the one making this a problem, but I know she will just repeat her earlier demands of giving up our Friday night with SD if we are unable to get her to the bus. So do we wait until after we pick up SD and then tell BM that she's got to come pick her up at the theater? Or do we give up Friday night? Or do we call the police Friday night when she won't let SD come with us because we can't get her to the bus? What do you do with an unreasonable person who has all the control?! She will not compromise, she HATES us!
Advice please?
- Caitlin's blog
- Log in or register to post comments
Comments
My suggestion
Is that maybe you need to sit down and talk to your SD and let HER know and fully understand the situation- in her terms. Assure her that driving all the way to and from is just not possible and let her understand the play plans/schedule. Granted that she's feeling alot of pressure from her BM, but honestly, it's YOUR vistitation day... not hers. You have a life that obviously BM doesn't have. She just wants to control it.
I think you need to reassure your SD that you will get her to her swim meets and unfortunately, she won't be able to ride on the bus EVERYTIME. Kids do need to learn some disappoints otherwise, they can't learn how to cope with it in the future. Let her know that it's not because you don't want her too, it's just because you live here, and it's over there, and there isn't enough time in the day to get from here to there. Physically show her if you have to. Explain it in her terms and she will have a better understanding.
Unfortunately, BM is a different story because she's using it to her advantage, but if you keep good communication with the coach, really participate with the coach, he will see the different side of things. Some coaches really do prefer to have their 'team' together, but if you explain the situation to him, he may be able to ignore BM. My DH coaches, and we've actually had this problem happen to us, so as the coach and me as team parent, we offered to pick up kids ahead of time and car pooled them. That way, we took the kid out of the equations for the controlling parents. The kids really appreciated that and it worked great for everyone. Maybe there is a solution similar to this that you can try.
thanks for your suggestion
I think that is exactly what we should do - talk it out with SD. She has asked us to keep her out of the middle which is why I hadn't really even considered that option, but I think in this case if we just explain the circumstances of this weekend's plans and work it out together as a family in a positive way, she will see what is best for everyone and hopefully realize that it's not her mom's decision.
The coach knows and understands the situation and was totally fine with SD not taking the bus until BM worked her magic.
This should be a NON-ISSUE!
Ok, never mind that idea!
BM just sent a 3-page fax to my fiance saying that SD will stay Friday nights with her when there are swim meets from now on and that everything fiance has done has HURT SD DEEPLY.
I was reading up on parental alienation
I was reading up on parental alienation and that's exactly what is at work here. As if I didn't already know, but this excerpt really spells it out:
"The motivation for the alienating parent has both a conscious as well as "a subconscious or unconscious" component. The children themselves may have motivations that will make the alienation worse. Their hedonistic outlook for immediate gratification or their desire to avoid discomfort makes them vulnerable allies for siding with the alienating parent. The children become an advocate for the alienating parent by becoming the spokesperson for their parent's hatred. They become the soldiers while the alienating parent is the general directing the action in the background against the targeted parent. The children are frequently unaware of how they are being used."
Sorry... edited... posted
Sorry... edited... posted twice for some reason..
Yes, this is somthing
that I sorta figured was happening. Do you have a court order schedule? If so, the fax that BM sent is wasteless and un-applicable. You don't agree to it, so it's not a 'valid agreement' between you. You can actual get authorities to go in and force her to release SD. Unfortunately, that also can make SD more scared when the police comes. But if the situation is so bad, I suggest doing it. Just make sure you reassure SD that it's not HER FAULT. That you love ber, explain it's in her best interest, etc- in terms she'll understand. Make sure she feels safe and secure.
I still think that you should sit down with your SD and fully explain things, in her terms, what's going on, and reassure her that it's NOT HER FAULT. Make sure you point that out to her... she is not in control of the situation, that it's between you (daddy) and BM.
BM now, is going over board with this. What's going to happen is that SD isn't going to want to swim anymore. This happened with my SS when his BM started to put up a scene about the whole soccer schedule and tried to even get in my DH's face that "he wasn't involved in his soccer!" etc etc... yet, she went ahead and signed him up fully knowing that soccer fell on his visitation time. We gave her a solution when she thought that she was going to upset him for 'taking time away'. We in turn decided that we could get him there and she could pick him up from soccer. At that time, we had SS Thursday morning through Saturday at noon. Soccer practice was on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and games on Saturdays at 11am-1230am or something like that. She thought she was going to just sweep in and pick SS up on Friday evenings for soccer, which would cut our visitation down to one day. Um, no... we will take SS to the game, and you can pick him up after the game. Then she got fired up because "we stayed to watch the game, and we are suppose to leave at noon!" Um, what?!?! No... we can stay if we want to... stupid. So, in her head, we are suppose to leave the field/game by noon, but the game ends at 1230?!?
I think you just need to get firm with her. If she denies you visitation, then connect the police. If you don't have a court order schedule, then I suggest that perhaps you think about getting a third party involved, such as grandma/pa or aunt or uncle or friend that you know you can talk to- that is associated with both of you. If they notice the dynamics that are going on, perhaps they can help mediate the situation and talk to her about her actions. Sounds like she really needs some therapy.
And if I were you, if you haven't gone to court and got things finalized, you need to look into going it before it gets worse. Document, document, document... save all those letters she is sending you. If she puts up scenes in public with you, start taking a camcorder... that was the only trick we could use and it worked for us, because BM knew that we had physical proof for the court. At least it played on her mind that we had 'evidence' against her... lol.
What is the solution for parental alienation?
I can see that this would be an explanation for the problem...what do the propose as a solution or response?
Here's what www.parentalalienation.com has to say
Not that this is a solution per se, but a list of guidelines on how to deal. I just found this site - www.parentalalienation.com - last week and the advice in it has already proven extremely helpful in guiding us in what to say and do in our most recent battle with alienating BM.
-Don’t give up on your children.
-Keep your anger and hurt under control. Losing control only fuels the alienating parent.
-Don’t retaliate.
-With your attorney, be sure the court continues to support your parenting time. The only excuse for terminating parenting time is if there are allegations of abuse or threats to the children's safety. If you are being falsely accused of abuse, cooperate with the investigation and insist on supervised visits rather than no visits.
-Don’t stop trying to pick up your children for your parenting time. If the other parent refuses, keep showing up unless the court order says otherwise. I realize this can be painful. Also, to get hostile towards your ex in your children's presence will only make matters worse for everyone.
-Keep a log of your activities.
-Focus on keeping your relationship with the children positive. Don’t pump your children for information or cause your own alienation.
-Don’t wait to intervene when you start having problems. Many times problems with alienation will occur when you or your ex starts getting serious in a new relationship. If there is a problem, contact your attorney.
-Get a court order requiring you and the other parent to get into family therapy. The therapists will need to determine if the child or children need deprogramming. The therapist doing the deprogramming needs to be a different therapist than the one working with the parents. The reason is to prevent problems with trust between the parent and therapist.
-The Alienator and his or her supports (spouse and extended family) may need to be part of the therapy and be educated about alienation and their role in the problem. At this point, the therapist has to be a salesperson in order to engage them in trying to resolve the alienation. I have learned that a new spouse and grandparent can destroy any progress that the parents make in therapy.
-Monitor your own behavior so you don’t begin alienating. Know the symptoms.
-If the problem continues, try understanding what the other parent is reacting to without getting defensive. Then, if necessary, try to talk openly about what you are seeing and feeling (feedback model). If the problem continues, the alienating parent may need to consider therapy.
-Don’t violate court orders.
-There needs to be a court order supporting the family therapy and deprogramming.
-The court should have a mechanism, like a Guardian Ad Litem, Parent Coordinator, Special Master or court staff member to monitor the parent’s compliance to the court order. Courts must find sanctions for parents refusing to cooperate. One sanction that can be considered is to increase the targeted parents parenting time with the children.
-Dealing with an obsessed alienator can be one of the most difficult and painful experiences you will have because you will feel powerless and it can last for years. What is most important is that you don't add to the problem by getting caught up in the alienating cycle. Remember prevention is a must because reversing parental alienation syndrome is near impossible. Most courts don't have an effective mechanism to handle these cases.
Awesome guidelines...
These are fabulous points....thanks for the info.
I hope they will be as helpful to others
I hope they will be as helpful to others as they were to us this past weekend. Using the advice on how to handle an alienating parent and the children who are stuck in the middle allowed us to overcome BM's ridiculous tantrum and get SD at the time the court order stated. If BM had had her way, our time together would have been cut in half.
This is THE FIRST TIME EVER that we were able to stop her from keeping SD away from us. EVERY time she has pulled her crap like this in the past, we were helpless to do anything about it and we lost out on precious time with SD. We just gave in to her demands for the sake of protecting SD from a bad scene or simply because the police couldn't intervene and force SD to come with us, they could only verify that she was safe inside and get it down on the record that BM denied visitation.
No more! This is just like giving in to a toddler's temper tantrums. It teaches them to KEEP IT UP to get what they want!
It's a long hard uphill battle, but with the right tools, it doesn't have to be impossible.
Irrational and alientation (this is SteppedOn)
DH should not allow this to continue. Why is it that there can't ever be cooperation with the DH? What you are asking for is common sense. She is simply being difficult and using this situation to alienate SD from you all.
If you and DH really want to handle the situation, I suggest contacting an attorney and addressing the alienation issue. It is too late for us (SD-18 & SS 16), but I'd like to see others stand up for themselves now that these sort of claims are being taken more seriously.
This is just one thing of many that BM is doing to alienate SD from you both. There will be many things you never know about. When you have something that is actionable, act on it.
Update (this is long, but it's GOOD!)
Well, BM's childish little temper tantrum backfired on her and boy is she mad.
My fiance spent half of Friday calling her and emailing her, telling her that she is breaking the court order by keeping SD away, that he will call the police if she is not ready at 6pm and she insisted that it was SD's wish to stay with her Friday night and take the bus Saturday morning. BM got her father involved, trying to bully my fiance into compliance, she called SD's therapist and tried to align her against my fiance too, but instead the therapist told her she needed to follow the court order and send SD at 6pm unless she wanted the police to get involved. When she saw she wasn't getting her way, she screamed and cried like a 2-year-old and I'm not exaggerating. Screamed and cried.
She tried to say that the court order specifies that my fiance can have "supervised visitation" and that up till now she's been allowing him to see SD without her present, but that she doesn't have to allow overnight unsupervised visits and she won't allow it anymore. My fiance read the court order aloud to her where it was clear as day that she was making all that up in desperation to get her way.
She then proceeded to put SD on the phone to express her wishes and my fiance gently explained to her that giving SD a choice in this matter is wrong, because the court order doesn't allow for the children to make the decisions. He said how sorry he was that she was in the middle of all of this, that it should be between mom and dad, and that she didn't have to choose between the 2 of them, because coming with him at 6pm does not mean that she is choosing dad over mom, it's just doing the right thing - doing what she is supposed to by law. My fiance could hear BM screaming at SD on their end, and SD asked if she could call him back when she could have some privacy. (They were in the car at the time.)
When they got back to their apartment, SD still didn't have any privacy, but she called back and at this point, BM had her father there too so all 4 of them were on speaker phone with my fiance. He asked her over and over again if she would have SD ready for him at 6pm and she avoided the question, shot back with horrible accusations, tried everything in her power to get him fired up and he just calmly repeated the same question like a mantra: will you have her ready at 6pm? Finally, SD chimed in with "Just answer the question, Mom! It's a simple question." So, BM says "I will do what MY DAUGHTER wants." So fiance says "Do you want to come with me at 6pm?" and BM threw a huge fit: "How DARE you put SD in the middle!?" Um, too late for that, lady! You're the one who put her there! SD asked how long it had been since she saw him because BM took her away for last week's weekly dinner and my fiance told her that it had been a week and half.
So, music to our ears, SD said, "I want to go with Daddy."
Well, you would've thought that SD beat her mother with a stick, the reaction that got. She wailed, sobbed, threw the biggest hissy fit a 52-year-old woman could possibly muster. And it didn't end there. When we went to the swim meet the next day, BM was holding a huge grudge over SD. She would barely speak to her, she was in a huff the entire time, whereas usually she's hovering over her like a mother hen not giving her space to even breathe.
At one point, SD came out into the hall in tears and just said she didn't feel well, but her friend told me she had a fight with her mom. We really tried to get it out of her, but she "swore" she was ok and nothing was wrong - this is all to protect her mom of course. I just hope she'll discuss it with her therapist at least.
Oh and about the bus to the pool, which is why this whole fiasco came about: we sat down Friday night to discuss the transportation arrangements for the next day and said that we had a couple of options: 1) go directly to the pool from the theater 10 minutes away or 2) drop off SD with BM early before the play, so that she could get her to the bus. SD, after not even a moment's hesitation said "Oh, it sounds much less stressful and rushed to just go directly to the pool. Let's do that."
Doesn't sound like the devastated kid that BM described at the thought of not being able to take the bus. It was SO not a big deal to her. But now the poor kid is paying for it with major guilt trips from BM that'll probably last for weeks. How unfair!
SD is so strong. I'm so proud of her. I cannot imagine life with a mother like that. She's going to be in therapy for life.
That poor child!
How amazing that she is strong to stand up not only to her mother, but to do it in front of her grandfather. She is seeing the bs that her bm's side is putting her through, and she is choosing to do what is right, which is see her dad.
Our bm pulled this for a few years, and my ss always sided with his mother, refused to get out of cars, cried and said he never wanted to see us, and to this day, refuses to recognize that we do anything fun for him (and I mean anything...he only tells people that we are abusive for making him do dishes 2 nights per week...) His entire life he has been used to hurt his father, and he is angry for it. I'm sad for him, because I really truly believe that all of this nastiness his bm put him through really contaminated his childhood, and ruined any trust he has for women.
I really can't believe how strong your sd is, you should really be proud of her. And just so you know, bm will throw her temper tantrums, but in private, she is probably going to bribe her with gifts, not mistreat her (unless she is absolutely vindictive to her child). When the children don't do what the manipulative parent wants, then the gifts start rolling in...my ss's grandmother says some really nasty things about us..and then buys big ticket items...nice:)
You may be right...
Candice, you may be right about BM trying to butter up SD with gifts in order to get her way, but unfortunately, what I see is not the case.
She's so sick that she will "punish" SD after not getting her way (silent treatment, guilt trips, screaming fits) to try to make SD want to NEVER go against her ever again in order to avoid the drama. All the while, she is blaming Dad for bringing all this on - "if only he would listen, everything would be FINE!"
Prime example, at the swim meet (BM is an assistant coach) they were apparently fighting on deck over the bus thing. SD wouldn't talk about it so I don't know much about it, but I could just see from the stands the cold shoulder BM was giving SD.
Then, after the meet, BM scurries off angrily before SD is out of the locker room to go steam in the parking lot (VERY unusual - she usually stays back with her in the locker room to delay her coming with us) and as we were all leaving together, SD saw BM in her car and ran over to say "I love you" and what was BM's response? Not "I love you too". She said "well, we all missed you on the bus today, but..."
Nasty and vindictive, even to her own daughter. My 15-month-old is better-behaved than her when she doesn't get her way!
Oh, and yes - we are
Oh, and yes - we are immensely proud of SD. I cannot believe how well she takes all the BS her mother flings at her.
that is truly awful...
she will go as far as sabotaging her own daughters' childhood, sporting events, social environment, and worse..her own relationship with her own daughter...to punish the father...so sad...and it is really going to backfire immensely (sp?) when she is an adult. I am truly amazed that she is standing up to her mother now...wait until she is an older teen..or adult.
You guys are doing the right thing too..we use to have to really fight hard to enforce the parenting plan...bm would go to great lengths to sabotage dh's relationship with ss, and it was really hurtful.
I wonder if one day, your sd's bm is going to be embarrassed by her childish behavior? I know our's isn't really remorseful, but now that ss is too much for her to handle, she sends him our way (I mean 180 degrees different than what she use to be). She now supports us, but mostly b/c it benefits her. I wonder if yours is ever going to see the light..
Has the therapist ever called dad or mom in to say what needs to be done differently to improve on sd's life? Ours did..but the only person that was there at the appointments was my dh, mom only showed up once...she was extremely hesitant to go, and never wants to be confronted by him.
It's starting to backfire now!
SD is only 11 and she's already figuring it out.
SD's therapist warns BM time and time again that her behavior will create terrible backlash against her as SD becomes an adolescent, yet BM insists that she's the victim and that she's got SD's best interests at heart and my fiance does not.
The therapist was of BM's choosing and she tried to shut my fiance and me out of it entirely. The new therapist was extremely alarmed and concerned after just the first visit so she actually got our number from SD because BM wouldn't give it to her, saying "it would be no use to involve him" as if he's a deadbeat dad or something.
BM thought she could weasle her way onto the therapist's good side and align her against us, but when she started calling her out on her bad behaviors, BM threw a tantrum and yanked SD out of therapy for a couple of months. I don't know what happened, but I know that SD's therapist works with BM's therapist on how to deal with this madwoman, so I imagine that's how they convinced her to bring SD back into therapy. We only knew that SD stopped going because the therapist called us to see where she was and why BM wasn't answering her calls.
We rarely ever go to the sessions because the therapist doesn't see a need to meet with the parent who isn't wreaking havoc on the kid's life. She just keeps in touch via phone and email, but now that there's a new baby coming and SD is expressing concerns over jealousy and such, she would like us to come in. We had scheduled an appointment for Tuesday during the weekly dinner, and BM found out about it and insisted on coming! This is after the therapist had said that she would never again have both parents in for a session as it is completely useless because BM has her own agenda. I guess BM wouldn't take no for an answer because she's going!
Anyway, I wonder if SD will start acting up as a teen and then BM will give up and send her to us. It's always been my dream that SD come to live with us, but not necessarily under those circumstances! Can't we have her now while she's lovely and wonderful?
I use to feel the same way...
I can't believe she is only 11 and standing up to her mother! That is really amazing. When my ss was 11, his mom (who is a habitual partier) lived by herself, and one night left her two kids, 11 and 3, home alone all night. She left after they went to sleep, and the next morning, my ss woke up and couldn't find his mother. He called his grandmother (of course not us b/c he was protecting his mother from going to jail) and told his gma that he couldn't find bm, and there was no food in the fridge for him to eat or feed his brother. Shortly thereafter, bm walked through the door like nothing was wrong. Later, her mother confronted her on leaving the two kids like that. She yelled at my ss at the top of her lungs for lying about no food being in the fridge...(uhh excuse me? what about leaving an 11 and 3 year old home alone all night?? Is an 11 year old really capable of caring for himself and 3 year old for more than 2 hours?)
Anyhow, gma called us and asked if she could drop ss off at our house to stay. At that point, ss said he wanted to come live with us. I was like you, elated! I have nothing but the best interests for my ss through and through...and trust me, he has always been work, but I wanted us to at least have the opportunity to have him full time, and try to teach him a better lifestyle (you know...not moving every 3 months, not knowing who dad might bring home this weekend, always having food in the fridge, always have a schedule..at least knowing what school you are going to be at in the next coming MONTH...ya know..normal stuff).
My ss was in such terrible emotional condition, that he was really hurt and angry inside, and decided I was going to be the target. The problem for us wasn't so much the things ss was saying about us, or doing to us, but the undermining that bm, gma, and of course my dh's sister were doing to us. All 3 of these Einsteins' have made a personal committment to thoroughly kiss the ass of my ss, so when he speaks they jump. When he accuses us of abusing him, they all run to his aid. If we discipline him for lying, cheating, stealing, whatever, they all were defending him, trying to tell us how to raise him..it was so frustrating. Then one day, he either lied to them, stole from them, or manipulated them...and suddenly we weren't so bad after all...funny how things like that work.
What makes me so mad is that these kids are so loveable, and bm's just do everything to ruin them as people, and then when they aren't so fun anymore, that is when the sharing begins...now that my ss is a bonafide brat, that is when we get him 50/50...not when he was 5 and still loved everyone.
My dh is a different dad to our son, then he is to his son, and I'm sad for his son. I want his dad to just be able to bond with him, his son was really robbed, and my heart bleeds for him. The therapists told me that part of that is b/c the two boys have different mothers.
I'm sure your sd is going to come live with you guys, and you will have some rocky roads with her, but doesn't every parent? The worst is going to be when bm has no rules, you have all the rules, and sd thinks she can come and go as she pleases.
My ss lived with us for one year, hated our rules, and demanded to move back in with him mom. That lasted one whopping month...switched schools and everything, and one month later, he is back with us, in our school...amazing.
Your bm is definitely crazy...I would even say more crazy than ours. Sorry she is like this, I wish she didn't have her personal agenda and was using her daughter like this. Just keep trying, it's so frustrating.
Wow, Candice...
You've got quite a story. It sounds like your BM is just extremely irresponsible and selfish, whereas ours is insane and selfish. She is mentally ill, after all.
Thanks for sharing and I hope that once your SS gets through his rocky adolescence that he will stop using you as his target for all his hurt and anger. How sad what a victim he is in all this. You and your DH are his only hope for growing up to be a decent human being with values and morals. Good thing he has you!
Keep up the good work!
You are totally right
our bm isn't mentally ill, and I am truly thankful for that. She is a superflake, and I would rather deal with that, then what you got on your plate.
I see improvements already in ss's behavior, this year is a lot better than last year. I just hope your sd decides she has had enough and expresses her desire to live with you guys. You are right about us being the only avenue for him to grow up to be a decent person. Last summer, when bm decided to take him back, I went to the therapist and said "I'M DONE!" I'm throwing in the towel...and he said that dh and I are literally the only responsible adults in this poor kids life, so it was really important for us to hang in there.
You never know what kids are going to do, and I see a lot of strenth in your sd...and for that I have hope for her. I can't imagine the challenge you have ahead of you with dealing with mentally unfit parents...that is so hard to prove, and sounds impossible to work with.
My heart goes out to your family...I hope by sharing my story you find encouragement to continue fighting for this little girl. It's so hard, and sometimes you just want to throw in the towel b/c nothing works.
I will continue the good work, and I hope you can too:)
Sharing really does provide encouragement
I've been saying over and over when things get really bad - "OMG I need therapy because this woman is going to drive me insane and I don't know how to deal!"
I realize that I haven't said that even once since joining this site because I get all the therapy I need right here!
So yes, reading your story helps keep me from wanting to throw in the towel, it helps me feel validated in my feelings of frustration, it helps me realize that what I am doing for SD is so important in her upbringing, considering what she goes through with her mother. I'm glad I can be a positive female role model for her.
When I think of how bad I have it when it comes to BM, I am humbled by how much worse it is for SD. I certainly will carry on advocating for her and hope that she will come out of it ok.
Good luck with superflake!