What I Have Learned About Counselors and How Scary It Is!!!
There was poster who asked if counseling helped. In reading the answers it validated my reasons for avoiding going to a counselor. In my reading, and personal experience, here is what I have learned.
- A VERY large proportion of pastors/counselors/therapists/psychiatrists are Co-
dependent. That is one big reason they go into the field because they want to
"help" people and feel "needed". These co-dependent professionals can cause more
harm than good.
- The field of pastoring/counseling/therapy/psychiatry is one of several fields
that has a VERY HIGH percentage of Narcissistic Personality Disorders in it. It is
because Narcissists are attracted to these fields because they can have "CONTROL"
and share their "SUPERIOR" knowledge with their clients. If a person a
Narcissistic counselor is counseling does not appreciate, agree with or follow
their advice,the narcissistic counselor can attack the client and try and make it
the clients fault for being so stupid, unworthy or undeserving of this therapists
time and efforts. One thing that a Narcissist can't stand is when someone does
not agree with them or cow-tow to them. They will turn on that person in a flash,
or consider them "invisible".
- Having a degree in Psychology, and having worked in two couseling clinics in the
offices (one of which was a Christian couneling clinic) I saw my share of bizarre
things! Often times the therapists were worse off then the clients. It was
very eye-opening!
- In regards to "Christian" counselors - if they aren't well grounded in their faith,
and really have an understanding (not a denominational bent) of scripture and theo-
logical issues, they can cause more harm than good, especially in regards to the
issue of women "submitting" to their husbands.
There are many good counselors/pastors/therapists/psychiatrists out there, but it is very important to take the time to seek out and find them. Be VERY CAREFUL whom you choose as a therapist!
I have gotten the most help from sources like books that have been by people that have been shown over the years by their actions, and the validity of their writings, that they are people to trust.
Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend - two Christian Psychologists who are well respected and shown to give good sound advice. They have written great books like "12 Christian Beliefs That Can Drive You Crazy" which is about the misuse of scripture by pastors and others, and how it can cause harm. They also wrote "Boundaries" and "Boundaries in Marriage" two great books.
Melody Beattie - a woman who wrote the book "Co-Dependent No More" which has been in continuous print for 25 years and sold millions of books. She has great advice and insight - because she herself has struggled with being co-dependent.
Many good pastors/counselors/therapists use these resources, and recommend them to their clients.
I say why pay a high price for good advice, when you can get it in books for much less? And you don't take the chance of getting a really weird counselor who can mess you up more? 
You just described my SD
You just described my SD (narcissistic personality disorder) and she is in college studying to be a social worker.
As well as mine... who is
As well as mine... who is soon to enter graduate school to study mental health.
Ironic, ain't it?
I keep wondering if she will recognize herself when they come to NPD.
Yikes! Being a therapist
Yikes! Being a therapist myself I would be interested in where you got your research from of if it just observation. I've been in this field for 17 years and while I've met some kooky fellow therapists I would not say there is any higher percentage of crazies in this profession than others. To be honest, therapists have to at least hold a Master's degree. That's not to say that you cant be crazy with a Master's Degree, but it does require a certain amount of organization, determination, as well as cognitive ability. I do not have any codependency nor control issues. I've literally in 17 years never tried to "control" a ct-in fact just the opposite-I've had many clients get frustrated with me as I wont tell them exactly what they need to do. I was taught that the goal is assist your client in being an independent, functioning individual and that's what I do. I worry that your post may sway folks from seeking assistance when they need it. I'm sorry your experience has not been good, but that does not mean everyone's will be.
I've found both good and bad
I've found both good and bad counselors. Years ago I had a bad experience with a counselor who was not equipped to handle the situation of an adoptive older child with RAD. She was too egotistical to admit it and refer us to someone who had the expertise. This casued further disintegration of the relationship with the child. From then on, I have made sure that we are on the same page or I will not return for a second visit. I have also had some very good therapists and they have definitely helped. After disengaging I had doubts if I was doing the right thing. A therapist helped me to see that I had chosen the right path. She helped to give me the courage and confidence to remain on that path. But the BEST counselling I've had was from the members of this site. There is SO much wisdom and support here! I am very thankful for you all.
My information comes from
My information comes from sources other than my own experience.
One source is from a level 9 self-aware narcissist who has all nine traits of Narcissism. His name is Sam Vaknin who is a world authority on Narcissism. He has written a book called "Malignant Self-Love: Narcissism Revisited."
He is an expert because he IS a full fledged Narcissist. If you wish to hear and see him in action - go to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DMR203y3kk&feature=related
It is a VERY interesting documentary about this man.
Concerning Co-Dependencey - ONE source for my information (although there are others - like Melody Beatties books) is from sites such as the link I am providing below, which is an online site for coaching for co-dependence:
http://www.soulwork.net/sw_articles_eng/codependence.htm
"In relationships, codependent people forget who they are, and may focus only on what other people want. Codependence is a terrible quality for a helping professional such as a coach, counselor or therapist. Yet codependent people seem to recognize and attract each other.
Codependent helping professionals are unlikely to support healthy independence, and may try to sabotage healthier relationships! Codependent counselors or therapists may delay recovery to prolong their obsessions to be helpers ... and clients may be expected to finance these obsessions."
This is the reason why therapists need to - and good therapist will have - their OWN therapist, so they have someone who will give them a "reality check" and make sure they are not transfering their own issues into the relationship they have with their clients. I found out that my son's psychiatrist is doing this, but I can't do anything about it, because my son is an adult, and is paying for his own counseling and is of legal age. I can't interfer with his choice of counselors. I have tried to talk to him about it, but he won't listen. I have even had other counselors give me a heads-up about this psychiatrist. One psychologist said right up front that my son's psychiatrist is a "very controlling person" and another psychiatrist gave me a BIG hint by saying that after a psychiatrist gets licensed, they are pretty much on their own and can do what they want. :O
My advice, be VERY CAREFUL whom you choose as a therapist!
I'm sorry but I find these
I'm sorry but I find these claims a little over the top. It's true that some troubled people go into helping professions so that they can understand themselves and help others. I have always found co-dependency to be a model that is overblown and describes probably 99% of the population so as to be meaningless. And narcissism is popular right now, because we live in a narcissistic culture. People need help and there are a lot of good thoughtful therapists out there. I wish more people would seek help rather than say that there are no good therapists.
I always take the list to my
I always take the list to my family doctor and ask him to recommend someone. Would that work in your area?
I would say that out of 10
I would say that out of 10 therapists I have seen over the past 30 years, only 2 were helpful to me - the rest I had to defend myself to the entire (short) time I went to them, including with step issues, I have yet to see one that grasps the stepparents viewpoint.
So I agree that there are many troubled therapists and that books are almost as good, and definitely cheaper.
Since I was about 35 or so, I just started believing in myself more, for whatever reason. I used to buy whatever anyone would tell me about what I should do, why I was whatever, but I just don't accept others opinions of me now. I have had a lot of people tell me I am just so horrible but I just consider the source!! lol
So to me I would say you don't need a therapist after you have achieved your own love of yourself. You know in your heart what you need to do, and just have to keep trying to do it. IMO! p.s. I do have a Psych degree.
"So to me I would say you
"So to me I would say you don't need a therapist after you have achieved your own love of yourself." I agree. If I were screening a potential therapist today the first thing I would look for would be if this person was helping me to obtain the confidence to help myself. I like the idea of going in with a list of issues. A good therapist will be willing to address these. I've been to both good and bad therapists. As I commented before, the first therapist I spoke to after SD's meltdown became openly hostile when I wanted support from my Husband. It was apparent she was allowing HER issues to interfere with appropriate counseling and guidance for me. It sounded too much like she was a SD herself. On the other hand, the next therapist listened and empathized enough to help me make the decision to disengage and place my needs equally important to DH's.
You mentioned that we have to love ourselves. I can only speak for myself but I really believe the reason I bought into the emotional abuse from both SD and DH initially and for so long was because I did not love myself enough. This was due to acceptance of past abuse rather than taking on the responsibility of making positive changes in the way I viewed myself. I wonder if this is the case with many SMs. What was our frame of mind? At what level was our self-worth when we married DH? I know I had been through some recent, devastating experiences within a two year period prior to marrying DH. I wonder how many of you were in a similar situation? I was desperately looking for something to go right for a change. Instead I should have taken a few years to heal so that the next relationship I entered into had expectations of mutual respect.
So many posters, including myself, have written that we bent over backwards to make Skids like us. We have begged for DH's support. Instead, we became a virtual speed bump in the Skids endeavor for entitlement. We became a scapegoat for their anger and DH's guilt. It took a while but I was fortunate enough to finally find a good therapist to guide me into viewing myself more positively and ending the self-defeating game I was playing with SD and DH. But most importantly it is the work we do for ourselves that has lasting effects. I no longer see a therapist but I must visit this site regularly to stay on track.
What you are saying makes a
What you are saying makes a lot of sense to me, Sandye. I know the place you are coming from. I also know what the "virtual speed bump on the road to entitlement" feels like! Nice image! I want to go back to the therapist my DH and I see sometimes and explore these issues. He needs to see how unhealthy him putting SD's needs above everyone's - including his own, mine and other skids' - is. I feel very good at this time saying, my needs matter. I am a SM, hear me roar kind of thing...
Hi, yes, I hear ya - I say
Hi, yes, I hear ya - I say this as someone too, who did not realize I did not love myself, for far too long . . . ! and my dh didn't love himself either until I helped him. I think it is pretty common unfortunately.
Many people are taught that
Many people are taught that it is bad to "love yourself". I have even heard pastors preach about the J.O.Y factor = Jesus first - then OTHERS - then yourself. This is a very dangerous and misapplied teaching. No where in scripture does it teach this. It does say we are to "Love others AS ourselves" - not "better" than ourselves. If we don't love ourselves first in a mature and healthy manner, how can we appropriately love others?
There is "healthy narcissism" where we look to take care of our NEEDS (emotional, spiritual, physical, psychological) and then we are better able to help others. If we are not in a place where we have had our needs met, how can we give what we don't have?
Self-love does not mean we are to be "self-absorbed" or lack empathy for others. It means we take care of ourselves, and do not allow others to demean us or use/abuse us. We have a strong enough sense of ourselves that we are able to set healthy boundaries when needed.
What was your response to
What was your response to this therapist when she did the 'flip'?
Too bad we can't ask them about themselves first. You made a good point about subjectivity which is so easlity influenced by life experiences. I have also ran into therapists who seem insulted if you want to question them or treat them as equals. When the therapist suddenly 'pulled the trigger' on you and humiliated you, it sounded like she was playing a game which should not be tolerated. We've all met people who will be very nice, then blurt out something so 'off' it takes our breath away. I have a neighbor who will be 'overly' sweet, then when you least expect it she will come out with the most insulting, catty comment. It's a set up.
I agree completely with
I agree completely with Sandy21 I think that we suffered from low self esteem going into this and were easy pickings for hostile step kids. I grow up the daughter of alcoholics, not a great place to feel safe, secure confident and happy therefore develop a good sense of self esteem and confidence.
I have to thank DH and SD for driving me so far into the ground that the only thing left for me was to push back up. I now actually see the good that has come out of the situation I was in with these two. Had this never happened I may have gone through my entire life never realising how much better it could be if only I had more self confidence, thanks to them I found the courage to stand up for me, to respect myself, and to KNOW it was not acceptable for me to allow them to treat me this way. I grew up with abuse, I thought that was my lot in life, and while on a conscious level I thought I was aware of that and had moved away from that type of life, the reality was, I had swapped one kind of abuse for another, unconsciously I was still a litte girl getting a hiding only this time it was on an emotional level.
Like Sandy21 I too stay on this site to keep on track.
Ultimately once we stop trying to get them to like us, once we stop worrying about our DH and how he will get angry with us if we don't keep peace with his deadbeat kids, once we realise trying to get them or the situation to change is futile and once we realise the only way to fix this up is to look after ourselves, to put as much energy into loving ourselves as we do our husbands we are then on the road to recovery and a far better life either with or without them.
I am at a point were in some ways I am grateful it all happeed, because it has made me a better person.
"Ultimately once we stop
"Ultimately once we stop trying to get them to like us, once we stop worrying about our DH and how he will get angry with us if we don't keep peace with his deadbeat kids, once we realise trying to get them or the situation to change is futile and once we realise the only way to fix this up is to look after ourselves, to put as much energy into loving ourselves as we do our husbands we are then on the road to recovery and a far better life either with or without them."
This is SO true. The reason it took me so long to stand up for myself was to not rock the boat with DH and worry about his anger or disappointment. Once you reach your breaking point it just doesn't matter anymore and if the marriage fails we just don't care at that point. It is then up to DH to decide if he wants the marriage to work, but not the same way it used to, ie. SK's being mean and spiteful behind our backs.
Last weekend SD and her kids were in our guest cottage, arranged by DH and SD without my input several months ago. This was their summer holidays. I went up to our cottage which is right beside the guest cottage so not much privacy for either family. I stayed away from her and yet she still managed to have something to complain about to DH on Monday after returning home. She told him I was cold and stand-offish to the Gkids (her kids). What a load of crap and lies. She arrived after I was in bed and she expected me to get up out of bed to welcome her brood. This is why I was stand-offish. Sheesh. Then the next morning I was sitting out front on my deck and the kids wanted to come outside. I could hear them asking to come out and she wouldn't let them. I am sure it was because I was sitting outside. Not sure what she thought I would do but that was MEAN on her part. I didn't bother to tell DH about any of it but since she brought it up to him, i just said well she is the one with the problem since she wouldn't let the kids out to see me. He backed off then and I think he is slowly beginning to see how SD just wants to cause trouble no matter what the circumstances. And this also shows that as soon as I am anywhere near her company - she makes stuff up about me to tell her dad so they can bond over the mutual criticism of me. Well no more! I am continuing to disengage for my own sanity and DH kind of understands - baby steps.
Good to hear your DH is
Good to hear your DH is finally starting to see glimmers of the game SD is playing - and just WHO is being 'stand-offish'. How dare you not rouse yourself out of bed to greet the Princess! Once DH's blinders are off, and you continue to stand your ground, DH will begin to see more of what is really happening. Whether he takes action or not, it doesn't matter because he now knows you are not accepting the BS. I sincerely hope you do not have to be around your SD too much after this. At this point, having my SD in the next cottage would be a bit too close for my comfort!
Tell your SD to find her own
Tell your SD to find her own cottage in another county or state to stay at!
I found this comment from OP
I found this comment from OP interesting: "The field of pastoring/counseling/therapy/psychiatry is one of several fields that has a VERY HIGH percentage of Narcissistic Personality Disorders in it. It is because Narcissists are attracted to these fields because they can have "CONTROL" and share their "SUPERIOR" knowledge with their clients. If a person a Narcissistic counselor is counseling does not appreciate, agree with or follow their advice, the narcissistic counselor can attack the client and try and make it the clients fault for being so stupid, unworthy or undeserving of this therapist."
Reminds me of more than a few people I have seen comment on this site from time to time. Won't say who, tho.
.
It is rather scary when you
It is rather scary when you confide your soul to someone who is not qualified to help. Quite a few years ago, I finally convinced my dh to go to a couple therapist, and at the same time I was seeing an individual therapist regarding ss issues.
My dh had insisted that his ds join us on a holiday out west. His ds would not let us have one minute to ourselves and I was left out on most outings. We get to the airport to return home and his ds gets a major attitude because we did not want to sit in a bar to have our meal. We did not know he was an alcoholic at the time. My dh just ignored his attitude and tried to reach out and make feel better. He finally got him stop with the attitude. By then my nerves are frazzled by all the drama. My dh gets on the plane and then my ss, I am the last one on. As a go down the aisle my ss jumps up from his seat, blocks my way, and insists that I give him my ticket so that he can sit next to his df. By then I am an emotional mess and start crying when I get to my seat. My dh just ignores me and looks out the window, he would not even ask what is wrong.
I brought this up to our therapist and she told me that I needed to apologize to my dh for getting upset and crying. I could not believe it. When I told my therapist she was angry at her colleage and she told me that she was wrong to have me apologize. The only thing I did wrong is that I let all the drama finally wear me down at the end of our trip and I expressed it with tears. It was obvious that our therapist clearly had issues and here she was giving advice on how to behave. Needless to say my dh made her his best friend. Ugh!