Put on your Objectiveness Thinking Caps...
Think as OBJECTIVELY as you can, there's no right or wrong, no sides to choose, but I'd just like to get some thoughts from folks who don't have a stake (since none of you know me or DW)...
Just a little background, my family was pretty typical (if there is one?). Mom, dad, two boys, we had one dog, no really bad drama at all
But let's face it: Boy sometimes fight, they just DO. We moved a lot because dad had a job with government contracts, and he was successful and getting promoted. As the new kid, we were ALWAYS greeted with *suspicion of the outsiders* - to which I'd be nice and have friends after a while, though I got bullied some, my brother learned early on that bullies always came to us in a group. He'd put up with them for a bit, but if it persisted, he'd kick someone's axx (usually he'd wait to see who was the leader of the pack and "do him up, real good") and establish himself within a week or two - and the rest of the school year, he was good to go. Different approaches for different folks. Neither of us sought to bully or to be bullied. This was around 1975.
DW is about 3 years younger than me, has an older sister and middle brother (he's my age). DW was the wild one of the 3, though not a bad kid. I'm sure we ALL (her siblings, her, me, and my brother) were brought up to know when to stand up for what's right, and that if we were doing the right thing, WE WERE RIGHT to STAND UP FOR OURSELVES. For certain, I know my brother and I were taught that there are bad folks out there who would get their rocks off on doing the wrong thing, and when they crossed paths with us, we'd be EXPECTED to deal with the situation in a way we felt comfortable doing; that allowing bad kids to run roughshod over us wasn't a good idea for the long-term. I believe this was the prevailing mindset of parents and kids in the '70s - TO NOT SEEK strife, but also to not allow anyone to bully us or our friends or family; how we prevented that was up to us to figure out.
________________________
Fast forward to 2017... A little while back, DW and SS13 and I were talking about ruffians at his school to give him a pep talk. All was going well.
I started telling a story of my childhood, where I was right there, 6-8 feet away, when my brother got in a fight, and his 7th grade soon-to-become-ex-friend pulled a knife on him and sliced my brother's arm (about a 9 inch slice the length of his forearm - not deep, though it drew blood) before running away to his house (they had been squabbling over something, we came home, and this kid showed up seeking the fight aggressively, and when my brother turned toward him, he pulled out the knife and started slashing, missing a few times, but getting one slice in). DW looked at me incredulously and said, "See... I just don't GET it. How can anyone get in a fight? That's just so... WRONG." She turned to SS and hugged him and said, "I'm so glad you don't fight. Your uncle NEVER got in a fight, he was always SO popular that he never had to."
I'll pause here. What's your take on her response to my brother's story, and do you think I should not tell stories about my childhood?
Thanks, you saw what I was
Thanks, you saw what I was thinking exactly.
This was the direction I was
This was the direction I was expecting.
She just set him up to fail
She just set him up to fail if he ever gets in that situation. He will see defending himself as "wrong" now, no matter the situation. He will think its his fault, because he isn't "popular" enough, when in reality, that has nothing to do with it. Bullies will target anyone, for any reason. Evil exists in this world, even among children, and blindly pretending it doesn't exist is not the answer. He needs to be given the knowledge and tools to deal with these situations, and that is his parents responsibility to provide those for him, which is exactly what you were doing.
Thanks for the response. I
Thanks for the response. I *think* he knows that, but think it helps to reinforce it.
Thank you. True, though this
Thank you. True, though this didn't happened in school (where there's always supposed to be an unbiased parent close by), but in our front yard, and it happened so quickly and unexpectedly that by the time we told Mom, this guy was already at home.
As an aside, all the parents got together at our house and sat down with this kid in our formal living room, and his dad said, "What the HELL were you thinking?" The kid was crying and couldn't look up, just shrugged and said he didn't know. We all figured there was a touch of mental illness starting off, though dad had been promoted and we'd be moving soon, and maybe this kid didn't want to lose the friendship and was subconsciously sabotaging the friendship. We'll never know.
These days, there would be cops, attorneys, a news helicopter, grief counselors at the school, and a guaranteed spot on some daytime talk show... probably even a Lifetime network movie. Indeed, we are living in different times.
Parents model the way; your
Parents model the way; your story about a knife fight is not teaching positive character building or healthy problem solving skills, even when bullies are involved. DW realized that and though she could have certainly phrased her response a different way, you may wish to keep stories of past childhood violent acts to yourself, unless you would like to raise a kid and deal with the same tendencies.
Thank you. Just to be clear,
Thank you. Just to be clear, the crux of the discussion was about how a couple of his friends had turned to hanging out with some bad kids who have been stealing (one ran in front of a car to kill himself and was hospitalized a couple of weeks) and also coaxing weaker kids into an ambush where the kid would be beaten up. I was making the point how that type of friendship might lead to something really bad, and VERY unexpectedly, so we won't do the "He's been acting a lot nicer this week, I want to have a sleepover" junk. I hope that makes sense.
A kid who is otherwise not
A kid who is otherwise not around people who pull knives is going to find that really scary. Adults too. You could tell the story but leave out the degree of violence.
I think your DW was putting a lot of pressure on her kid when she (IMHO) told him that everything will come up roses as long as he's popular - read, as long as he just molds himself into what others want and doesn't stand up for anything except being liked.
I think you're right to encourage kids to stand up for themselves and to not allow themselves to be bullied. I think there's a lot more at play here - the first step to arm any person against being bullied is to make sure they know who they are, and are happy and satisfied with themselves. Then the bully doesn't have an 'in.' Knowing what to do in a knife fight might be necessary, but isn't it better to avoid?
Thanks, point taken. I was
Thanks, point taken. I was concerned about some things a few months ago with some of his friends coming over, so I put some parental controls on his TV and video games, and DW's ex applied some parental controls onto SS's iPad. When said controls hindered SS's watching of The Walking Dead (lots of guns and knives stabbing into zombies, etc), DW insisted that I remove the controls. Shares the mom, so there we have it. Promise, it's not that I'm being an axxhole, it's that I know that if he's in our house, I bear some responsibility for how he comes out... and when I see a potential problem, I work to keep us all safe. She's pretty permissive.
Yes you should tell stories
Yes you should tell stories from your childhood and your DW's naiveté is setting her son up to get his ass kicked.
Too bad your brother didn't take that knife away from his assailant and plant it up to the hilt in that asshole's skull.
I too reached a point in my life when I would no longer tolerate a bully. My epiphany was when I realized that getting hit hurts whether you fight back or not so if bullies wanted to hit me they were going to learn to feel pain as a consequence. From that point on when we moved and I started at a new school it only took one bully to get stupid for me to establish myself and increase my social stature at that school.
We were taught that if
We were taught that if someone was giving us some crap to stand up for ourselves BUT we had to be hit first. However once we were hit we had also been taught several moves that would jack the shi* out of someone so that is what we did. Never hit first but once hit we'd beat the shi* out of someone. I went to so many new schools that it usually only took one bully to start with me and by the time it was over every one had been taught the example of what not to do. My parents knew very well that if we hit back we'd be in the same trouble as the kid that hit first but did they care, nope, we'd do in school suspension with no issue from our parents.
My brother and I were raised
My brother and I were raised the same way. Don't start it but for damned sure finish it. If we were targeted by a bully that we destroyed our parents would not tolerate the school applying consequences against us. The schools learned that if my brother or I were put in a position to have to fight that the person who started it would be the only one with consequences.
Never did either of us receive disciplinary action from a school for fighting.
The only consequences we suffered were for not defending ourselves. Neither mom not dad would tolerate us not standing up against someone bullying us.
Heaven forbid if either of us had ever decided to be a bully. We knew better than that. The consequences would have been notably unpleasant.
Thanks, and to say naïveté on
Thanks, and to say naïveté on her part is particularly poignant because I also learned that she's naïve to the fact that her son has been in fights. Sure, they weren't bloody-eye/blackened-nose fights, probably just shoving and slugging, but he will stand up, and that's good. If he brought a weapon or was bullying, that'd be horrible, and I'd want to make sure he ALWAYS kept that in mind.
Some of Theodore Roosevelt's quotes are a big part of my thoughts on this.
For what it's worth, I got a
For what it's worth, I got a little frustrated that she interrupted me to imply that anyone who gets in fights is inferior (and as I, possibly unfairly, inferred by extension that since I had been in a FEW fights, well if the shoe fits...) and she left the room. So I said something about how I didn't like being labeled as inferior or defective or wrong just because I got into a few fights as a kid 40 years ago. She came back and said something about how I was jumping to a conclusion on what she said, that she never said I was inferior or anything. So I shrugged and blew it off, figured she just doesn't see how her comment might be taken that way.
Right after, when I went into the living room again, SS said, "I've been in fights, too." I won't reveal that to DW because she seems to be in denial that sometimes, good people MUST stand up, and of those times, sometimes they will have to fight someone who won't stop until someone speaks HIS language, with fists. As we mature, we do less of that... Why? Because someone stood up to the troublemaker at some point, and he either outgrew that OR got it thrashed out of him and he (finally) remained humble. I'm not at all surprised that he stands up when needed, but am still a bit surprised that she doesn't understand that even the best people get in situations that will require making a stand, and might have to fight to defend themselves.
I can't be sure about DW's brother, but I've never known anyone who stood up for what's right, to NEVER have to fight to back it up. He's a VERY good man, and I'll bet he has had to fight, even if she never knew about it.
So... if SS gets in a fight, I'll surely talk to him about it from a counseling standpoint to make sure he's good with who he is. Win or lose, I know he'd be doing it the right way. I only hope DW doesn't freak out on him, because I know he's good enough to know the right thing most of the time, and that might mean he knows it's an option well-worth exercising to stand up when the bully said to sit down.
Ok, this outcome made me
Ok, this outcome made me laugh. As soon as dw leaves the room turns out precious perfect has been in fights that he hasn't told his mother about...but will tell stepdad! hahahaha!
I'm sick, yes, but I think it's funny.
I also have to agree with you that your wife's comment sounded demeaning to you. That's how I took it and I could not care less who wins the argument at your house which is a complete abstract to me so a pretty neutral opinion.
Even if she really didn't know it sounded like that in her shoes I would have immediately apologized because I hate it when my dh feels bad and I'm the last person who would ever want to make him feel I disapproved of him.
Thank you, and I'm not really
Thank you, and I'm not really sure how she couldn't see what she said was a passive put-down. Several folks here agreed, seems a couple think she was reacting to the imagery my story might have given SS. She is very kind and compassionate, though I sometimes think she sees things a bit idealistically and ignores the facts that a. her son is a boy and b. boys behave like boys... which means that most likely, c. he will also one day behave like a boy, and she might be disappointed. I think it's good to see him acting less like a pre-teen and saying "mommy" - he's actually doing great. He's a lot more mature than his mom seems to see, though he seems to like her to see him a certain way, like a sweet little boy. She does lavish a lot of attention on him, and I think he may suspect that if he starts to grow up, she'll see him as less needy and she won't dote on him as much.
When we got married DH said
When we got married DH said his parents had always shown a united front to the kids and he hoped that we would too. I agreed. We have kept to it.
So in your wife's shoes I would have said something like, "Oh, dear! I'm so glad uncle xyz made it through that! How terrifying for all of you!"
The comment about the popularity is way out of line in my opinion. So if you work hard to change your personality to Mr. Extrovert and stand everyone for ice cream cones at every break you will never get jumped. And if you do get jumped it's your own fault for being not popular enough, by golly! Weird message to send.
Also, she has no idea what her brothers did. My own brother just told me a year or 2 ago some things he did when we were kids I had no idea at the time. And we were close! Only 16 months apart, we traveled in the same crowd and were close.
If she has an issue with what she thinks you're teaching the boy she should bring it up behind closed doors and together you can revise the message. If she wants you to stop talking she can signal that without the boy ever knowing. My dh and I have done this over the years. It works fine. And the skids have the stability of knowing this home is solid, no cracks.
Yyyyyup!
Yyyyyup!