I think about the dad's on the flip side of that coin. Even though it's their court mandated time, because the kid has said they don't want to see the BF the BM allows them to stay home. Usually BM is facillitating this through passive aggressive manipulation of the children.

I'm not suggesting that is what you're doing here but if you're going to go down this road, you need to have evidence of the poor environment at BMs house and the SD needs to be ready to say as much in court because if BM is crazy/angry enough she should could show up at your house with custody agreement in hand and demand her time.

Are you going to go thru the court system to get this court ordered? The reason I ask, is that if you don't, you could be facing contempt.

__________________________________________________________________________
“Sometimes it's the smallest decisions that can change your life forever.”

If there is a court order for scheduled visitation, you will be in contempt of court. I would think the judge would side with the mom, even though she is crazy you nor your DH have a degree to diagnosis her.

That's just my thoughts - but I am waiting to hear how this comes out cause we deal with a psychotic BM ourselves, and would love to cut her out.

Just befriend a typical BM out their and learn how to PAS - just kidding of course

I had to withdraw visitation of perfectson from his BD for a long time. The short(er) version: EH had an affair with a married satan and he left me for her. I took the high road for a while and tried to do the right thing UNTIL she went bonko, even having her little BFF physically assault me. My deciding factor was when she slapped perfectson across the face and then locked EH and perfectson out of the house... they took off walking and she came after them and tried to run over them with the car. Yep... told EH he was NEVER getting perfectson again as long as he was with her. I told him if he tried to fight me I would take perfectson and leave the country and he would for sure never see him again. Drastic measures, yes, but I would have followed through too and he knew it. The few years perfectson was subjected to this woman were detrimental to him. He witnessed physical violence, was treated as an outcast by satan while with them in private, but in public she tried to claim his as her own.... I could go on and on and on.

Sometimes we have to do what we know in our HEART is best for the child and to hell with court orders, judges, visitation etc... Perfectson saw his dad only under my supervision for 2 years because of that mess. He didn't have the financial means to fight me legally either and he knew I could get a restraining order at the drop of a hat if need be. So I had the benefit of being able to make it my way or the highway and I did. When satan left EH to break up yet a 4th marriage and she moved away, all became well in the world again but there was damage done between EH and perfectson. They spend very little time together now, talk and text often which is great, but perfectson doesn't want to go out of his way to see his dad and I haven't forced it for the past 8 years or so. Only when perfectson requested to go visit would he go... if EH asked and perfectson said he didn't want to then tough shit. EH should have put perfectson FIRST before he shot his own foot. Mind you, I REALLY like my EH. We talk often and are still friends, HOWEVER he knows what he did and we just don't ever discuss it.

Again, you have to do what you feel in your heart is right and damn everyone to hell if they tell you you're wrong for following through.

I just don't know old friend.

Bottom line is that you have to do what is right for SD. That's you job. If the BM is all of these things it's in SD's best interest to not be around her, at all.

I'm a BM, but I don't have one of those illnesses! So it's not like asking me if I thought it would be fair if my son wasn't allowed to see me (though he lives with me, I'm just comparing). I can't really compare........

I know you will do the right thing for SD either way and no matter how much it may hurt your heart to do so.

and I swear I don't have any personality disorders, but if I did have one of these disorders, undiagnosed, then I'm pretty sure I would be pitching a fit. I'm not saying that you're wrong to keep the skid from her BM, but I'm sure BM is in denial about her problems. My ex-husband called me crazy throughout our entire marriage and that got worse after the divorce. And I used to tell him - HELLO, I may be crazy, but you made me that way and I would LOVE to go sit in a little white room with rubber walls - I would call that a VACATION!! So, just a warning that I'm sure your psycho will go INSANE when you withhold her daughter from her, but I do agree that it is in the best interests of the child.

******My daddy always said: "It's better to be a SMARTASS, than a DUMBASS!******

Ever since BM went "off to live her life", she will call...oh maybe every 8 mos or so and want to see "her children". They are teens now and flat out tell DH that they do not wish to see her. Of course, in our case, there were abuse issues between she and the kids, so she doesn't push it, nor do I think she has the intestinal fortitude to show her face in Court to have court ordered visitation, as she would have many crimes to answer for. When and if the kids are ready to see her, I would encourage it, as I think there is much that they need closure for, as does their therapist. I for one, would never force visitation, but again...mine is an extreme case, as was Wicked's...and in my opinion, as is yours, Stick. Listen to your heart, be truly fair, and I think what is supposed to happen will....

A mother is not defined by the "b" or the "s" in front of her name, she is defined by how her children react when they see her cry.....

I think considering the age of the skid that if BM wants to see her and she doesn't want to go, let BM force her to go and stay out of it. This way, your husband is not violating the court order and not being the bad guy. Chances are that the BM will be overwhelmed with the attitude of the kid and not force the issue. Either way, its a win win for you and your husband.

I don't know you guys personally, so it's tough to say -- as you have worried at times that your SD is being dramatic... I don't know. My gut is that you shouldn't force her to go. She's almost 16; maybe if she was free to make her own decisions on this, she would stop having such extreme emotional reactions to the difficult moments with her mom. I know that when I feel trapped in a situation, I get much more anxious than if I always know in the back of my mind that I don't have to stay there no matter what. And maybe, just maybe, her mom would get a little attitude adjustment if she realized that SD wasn't going to be forced to be around her anymore.

Keep us posted on your decisions. Good luck puzzling this one out!

BB

- You are not second best, you are not second class. Do not ever let anyone make you feel that way. (2Bloved)

I don't know you guys personally, so it's tough to say -- as you have worried at times that your SD is being dramatic... I don't know. My gut is that you shouldn't force her to go. She's almost 16; maybe if she was free to make her own decisions on this, she would stop having such extreme emotional reactions to the difficult moments with her mom. I know that when I feel trapped in a situation, I get much more anxious than if I always know in the back of my mind that I don't have to stay there no matter what. And maybe, just maybe, her mom would get a little attitude adjustment if she realized that SD wasn't going to be forced to be around her anymore.

Keep us posted on your decisions. Good luck puzzling this one out!

BB

- You are not second best, you are not second class. Do not ever let anyone make you feel that way. (2Bloved)

At 16 I would love to say that the kids can make their own choices. But when I look back at my life, I wish my mom would have made me spend time with my dad. I lost a lot of time with him because "I didn't want to see him". Then again, he didn't have personalitsity disorders, just a problem keeping his wiener in his pants, which led to the divorce of my parents....

Tough call.... I think that is a case by case judgement call. I would really sit down and have an open and hoenst conversation with the kid... at 16 you should be able to have an adult conversation and come to a conclusion that is the RIGHT THING FOR THE CHILD. Who is not really a child anymore....

DISbelief~

~You have to BE crazy to UNDERSTAND crazy!~ ; )

I am not going to blast you, in fact if she is diognosed with these things or even one of them IMO, taking steps to protect sd16 is definately needed.
I grew up with a narsisist (my mother), and I can tell you as a child you have no idea they are the party that is ill.
You grow up believing you are bad, wrong, worthless, and always wrong.
The sickness is so deep and unseen alot by others you actually think you are the crazy one.
As an adult through my own counseling I learned my mom was a npd and it all finally made sense. EVen as an adult with children of my own, I have to keep my distance from her and make sure I don't feed into the negitivity and sickness. This is a type of person who will not stop.
I have also had to with my older bs10 be more flexible with him as he has finally come to a point where he doesn't want to see his bf, somtimes because of the way his father allienated him, didn't show up (never called). His father doesnot ever call him (and he has his own cell phone) and this is his dads choice. The consequence to this is his son has started to grow apart from him.
I think there is a huge difference in a making a child see a bp who is a good involved parent who does there best for the child, and a parent who abuses verbally, who is going to hurt the child, or has no desire to involve themselves in the childs life at all.
I wish someone would have advocated for me as a child. I would suggest that if bm is diagnosed with this, your sd in therapy talk about what this disorder is and how it affected her and it ISNOT her fault.

My SD is BPD, and her mom likely as well as Paranoid tendencies.

BM conceded custody to us rather than have a psych eval. She wanted the usual every other weekend, one overnight a week. Plus asked for 3 weeks in summer- one week each month.

As the custody case was coming to a head BM kept canceling, and SD kept asking not to go. Then a month or so after BM conceded, but before the final paperwork, BM called and stated we were beginning the new terms of "companionship" as it was in the docs.

We said fine. SD kept wanting to cancel. We let her a few times then BM called screaming at DH about pressuring SD not to see her. Very funny as we were actually a bit excited to have our first ever SD free weekends!

BM never took the 3 weeks in the summer, never asked and was evasive when we asked so we stopped asking. SD didn't care. Really, she didn't about that part- she didn't ever want to go there for a week straight anyway.

Then...

BM started dropping SD off at friend's houses IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD, or telling SD to walk there on a Fri night rather than pick her up for visitation. This wasn't new, BM had done it on summers when she had 50/50 MTW visits.

BUT...now SD was 12 and running around unsupervised and at people's houses we never even met who parents were never home (or worse one SF in a friend's house was a registered sex offender.) So every other weekend SD was arranging her social schedule to do all things we don't let her do, and then informing BM where she'd be.

We pushed for BM to keep her with HER on visitations, but by the time SD got back into town from a 5 week trip last summer, BM had "gotten a weekend job" and signed off on EO weekends.

Then in time she has faded to the point of maybe 2 overnight weeknights a month.

We used to ask SD every Wed if her mom was coming on TH, SD would call, and BM would give a thumbs up or down. Then sometimes BM would still cancel. BM started taking jobs "out of town" during the weeks too, and by this summer, I think BM saw SD 4 times.

I say, detach from expectations that BM will want to take her daughter. If you force things with PD people, the toxic increases, but in our experience, if you let them feel totally in control of things, they will do as little as possible and far less toxic damage.

My question is how is your SD handling/feel about her mom's illness? And does SD demonstrate any traits herself?

Hugs,
Sita

It's all about perception. Toxic environments can be inflamed by those living in it. You should also educate yourself on not only the disorders but on the laws in your state as far as contempt charges... but also grounds for withholding visitation based on (emotional) abuse.

For me, I realized that I can't save them from her. I can only empower them to endure.

I would just be careful when you go down this road. You better be committed and willing to deal with an individual who will in their fight will take the gloves off and hit below the belt. My husband, myself, even her own mother have all been the recipients of false accusations in order to further her own cause.

The last round in court had me ready to leave my marriage and landed me in therapy.

Best of luck, my sweet friend.

"For every ailment under the sun....There is a remedy, or there is none;
If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it." ~ W.W. Bartley

mom react to you and Dad taking a step back from the relationship between her and daughter? Cause that's basically what it is right? You guys saying- "you guys figure it out" Maybe mom wouldn't blow up as she would think that she no longer has to deal with you and dad???

"The beauty of life is, while we cannot undo what is done, we can see it, understand it, learn from it and change, So that every new moment is spent not in regret, guilt, fear or anger, but in wisdom, understanding, and love." -Jennifer Edwards

Will that not only teach her to be in toxic relationships throughout her life??? forcing her to visit with her mother may be teaching her tolerance and maturity but it's also teaching a very a dangerous lesson in being TOO tolerant.
I think she has put in more than enough effort with her mother...enough is enough.

Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others. ~Buddha