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Curious about something..... paternity and expenses

secret's picture

So... this has been on my mind for a little while...

Say Mom has the child solo for 10 years.... and Dad is non-existant in child's life. Both are content as is, no child support ever sought, blah blah blah.

Say child now wants to meet Dad.

Say Mom decides to now go after CS and half of expenses... and decides to now enroll the child in all these extra things that cost more money etc... because she's in the process of filing for CS/expenses from Dad...

(**no debate about whether dad should pay or not - this is not in this discussion**)

Here's my question:

If Dad can prove that Mom increased the expenses by mucho mucho dinero with a view to get half paid for by him, even if she never gave a crap before then... does Dad stand a chance at getting out of paying extras and half the cost of things that Mom didn't have the kid in to begin with since she couldn't afford etc?

I mean, the point of CS is to maintain the child's lifestyle, yeah? If Mom increased the child's lifestyle on her own, without Dad's money, just by thinking about Dad's money, can Dad possibly come out of it not having to pay as much as mom thinks?

Comments

advice.only2's picture

It's going to depend on how CS is computed in each state. In CA it's done by percentage of time so normally an EOW dad is calculated at having 20%. They would input the father's income and the mothers income and based on the percentage the amount would be set.

Now if the parties have extra costs involved those would need to be discussed during mediation and the judge could then decide on what else would be considered "fair" to split between the two parties.

secret's picture

and for those extra costs, if Dad can prove that Mom only has them because she thought Dad might have to pay for it/some, it would not likely be "fair" to split, considering it wasn't a cost before money became involved...right?

advice.only2's picture

I get where you are going with this, enrolling your child into a caviar lifestyle, just because you think the other parent is going to be able to afford it, is not going to change the reality of what's actually on paper. Assuming the father is a millionare is not going to change the reality when he shows he's only worth a few thousand.

ETA what I mean by extras are things such as daycare, medical and dental...which should be split equally as well.

secret's picture

That's what I'm trying to get "confirmation" of.... whether he's going to have to pay what the guidelines are, as opposed to what Mom thinks he should pay for.

advice.only2's picture

Mom can go in and demand whatevers she wants, but whatever the financial reality is will be what determines the CS. Who's to say this BM is going about this thinking she hit the motherload only to find out that her ex makes WAY less money than she and her spouse do...and won't she look silly when the CO and CS is put in place and now she now has to pay CS to the ex, and must pay for travel expenses of the child to visit ex.

NoWireCoatHangarsEVER's picture

This is happened in my family twice. My Uncle (mom's brother) was in love with a girl in some weird cult. One day he came home from work and all his crap was in the front yard in the rain and she was GONE. He was heartbroken. Well his love was pregnant and her parents married her off to some stranger in the cult. When the girl (my cousin) was 10 her mom and cult fake dad broke up. The mom remarried someone normal. New husband and mom told her cult dad wasn't her real dad. She pestered them endlessly and said she wanted to meet her real dad. Now my uncle never had children and was delighted to be a father. My aunt, his wife, was stressed and upset and threatened for sure by the existence of my 10 year old cousin. They did not go after child support. Not past or future. New stepdad I think made some good money and my cousin calls him her father. My Uncle is pretty poor. But they have a relationship but her stepfather is who she considers her real father. My cousin is probably 40 now and a mother of 3 kids and is very much loved and adored by my family. She is a purely delightful person and I'm so thankful she is in my life. They all live in Alabama.

Now my Aunt (mom's sister) married a man named Randy that she met in AA. He had been clean and sober for a long, long time when DCF shows up one day with his feral child who had been severely abused and says the mother says you are the father. DNA testing was done and he got this child who was 5 and had been locked in a closet with duct tape over his mouth and would only eat powdered sugar donuts. The court made him pay back child support for 5 years worth to the mother for a child he didn't know existed and even stranger, DCF took him away from her and this child was raised by my Aunt and Uncle (his bio dad). You better believe it cost a lot of money to fix this child emotionally and physically and yet they had to pay a crap load of back child support to a woman who had the child removed from her for abuse. This is in Florida. That kid is a grown up now. He's had some issues you can bet, but he is loved by his family and loves them. I would say they have a good relationship. He never saw his mother again and that woman was paid for the five years she had the child hidden and abused.

Myss.Tique D'Off's picture

Our laws approach this slightly different.

If mommy has been playing house with some other "daddy" then it can be assumed that "faux daddy" is the "in loco" parent.

Now Mommy wants to hit up some other man that she had 10 years to contact, she first has to establish paternity and then convince the courts as to why first daddy sperm donor needs to take over from faux daddy. Is it even in the best interest of the child to have the relationship with sperm donor daddy or have him financially support a child when faux daddy is still in picture and the child is not deprived of support of faux daddy?
The courts dont like a "my two daddies after the fact" scenario.
A court appointed family advocate would also be appointed to act in the interest of the child and social services would look at this situation.

As to mommy spending like crazy and attempting social status mountaineering via private schools, ponies and yachts now that daddy sperm donor is the picture? The court would look at the needs of the child and the costs associated. If Daddy sperm donor can prove that this is a recent thing - ie kid moved from corner school to private school and from playing with dollies to yachting lessons after mommy thought she hit the sperm donor mega jackpot, the court would look at income and tax filings plus prior expenses when determining who pays what. I can be ruled that those are Mom's expenses.

(I have a friend who sends her kid to private school, has a maid service three times a week, kid has swimming lessons, she lives in an expensive part of town, you name it. Court said that was her business and not necessary expenses. None of those expenses are paid by her ex husband. She wants it for her kid? She pays it.)

ESMOD's picture

I think that the CS is more of a factor of what the relative incomes of the parents are and their relative share of custody time.vs what specifically is being spent on the child.

If she is signing up in anticipation of having more money to pay for things that's one thing, but I don't think that she will just automatically be awarded "half" of the cost of every program she signs the kid up for.

If the man makes pretty good money and she is a relatively low earner... and has full custody.. you might expect a pretty good award for her. You might even see an award for back support for the first 10 years of the kid's life. It doesn't matter if she didn't pursue it... she may still be awarded something.

advice.only2's picture

I'm curious what states allow that, in CA CS can only be retroactive from the time the parent files for CS, they cannot go back past that date.

secret's picture

Now I'm curious... .when it's retroactive, is it retroactive based on the earnings AT THE TIME?

Let's say earnings were minimum wage for many of those years, adding on top of that buttloads of school debt.. is the back support calculated at what it would have been at the time, or is it calculated at what dad's earnings are TODAY?

bananaseedo's picture

Yes, all depends on the different state. Here in GA which is pro-mom they canNOT go back from when kid was born, but when was filed.

Can you imagine? Some of these guys don't even know they have kids-that would be absurd.

Another thing- a good lawyer can get 'deviations' of ALL Kinds- they MAY ask for her full household income-they can argue the stepdad has been already financially supporting the kid their entire lives and you can have both salaries calculated or ALL household income imputed -dad/moms/stepparents. It DOES happen.

lieutenant_dad's picture

My understanding is that CS and the CO are two separate things. Minimum CS is calculated by the state. That is what you owe regardless of extracurriculars. You could have the kid in 400 different activities or none; CS won't change based on that.

Now, a CO could stipulate that, in addition to CS, a parent could pay $X to help pay for extras above and beyond what CS would cover. That amount is calculated a million different ways, and some places probably have certain guidelines they want parents to follow such as 50% of medical expenses, extras, etc.

In this situation, I think BM is gambling. While she MIGHT be awarded extra money for extras, she won't be guaranteed it. If BD gives BM sole physical and legal custody, his attorney could argue that he wants nothing more to do with the child than pay CS. There would be no need to draft a CO for anything other than saying BM has sole everything.

And even if BD were ordered to pay half on extras, many COs require BOTH parents to agree before the child is enrolled in order for the CP to receive half. Additionally, COs are much harder to enforce, so if BD really doesn't want to pay half, she'll spend more in legal fees trying to GET the money that what she is ordered in the first place.

All of this would be solved if everyone could just act like same, rational adults.

advice.only2's picture

Pretty much what you said, just because you see an MD attached to a person's name does not guarantee you dollar dollar bills!

bananaseedo's picture

YES, this! CS and CO-two different things- if the dad isn't interested in visitation then it will just be a simple CS standard set by the state and it certainly MOST of the time doesn't include ANY of that stuff, OR medical even. You can't insist someone sign a CO that waives their right to visitation either.

Aunt Agatha's picture

The crazy BM in our case way inflated her expenses during the discovery process - including things like $1,500 spent on dining out for kids at the time were all under 10 - young enough to eat off of any kids menu, plus she claimed another $600 per month for groceries for little girls...

From what I understand, she was laughed at by everyone including her own lawyer (although she constantly has new lawyers because she is so crazy, rude, demanding...)

So sometimes these antics are seen through.

notsobad's picture

In Canada Stepparents can be made to pay CS.

If they have been in the child’s life and acted as a parent for a substantial amount of time, 5 years or more, and the bio parent has never been in the child’s life, they are deemed to be financially responsible for the child.

A parent would have a hard time explaining why they suddenly want CS from a bio if they haven’t filed for anything in the child’s life up to this point.

WTF...REALLY's picture

This makes sense. And I would think it be pretty critical to know if the biological father was even on the birth certificate to begin with.

secret's picture

I believe they can, if they can demonstrate that they have been an integral part of the child's life, much like a grandparent can get legal rights to visitation

onwednesdayswewearpink's picture

I know in OK CS follows the dhs income guidelines and income/visitation days are put into a calculator that will spit out a number. I have heard that it is really hard to get a judge to deviate from those guidelines. We just have a standard order and the only cost ever mentioned above cs is a shared percentage of medical. So no, anything "lifestyle" related is paid for out of child support. I don't know about anywhere else but here it wouldn't matter what she has signed the kid up for because its up to her to pay for it over and above cs.

BUT... in this scenario if there is a step-dad that has presented the child as their own for two years then the state now considers him the legal father regardless of paternity and now he is on the hook for paying for the kid. Bio dad only has to prove that step-dad held the child out as his own. So any cs would be shot down.

Doorsy's picture

How can that be proven? Just because a step parent lives in the same house and allows his wifes kid to call him daddy or mommy doesn't mean he wants the financial responsibility of the kid. Nor should he be responsible.

notsobad's picture

It’s the status quo.
If the child is calling a step, mom or dad and the step is paying the majority of the bills, it doesn’t matter if the step Wants financial responsibility.
If they accept them while living with the bioparent the courts can reasonably think that the step is ok with the financial responsibility.

The proof is that they have already accepted financial responsibility. This is a great argument for keeping finances separated.

onwednesdayswewearpink's picture

That’s exactly right. It’s in the best interest of the child that the person who has claimed them for the first few years of life and acted as a parent remain their parent. School or daycare paperwork listing stepdad as Dad would be proof. Any kind of captioned pictures that say my son/daughter or mom and Dad.

Acratopotes's picture

in this case.... yes might happen... SF was in process of adopting but when they heard the bio Dad will be a doctor he stopped everything

Doorsy's picture

There was no progress. He never did the paperwork from my understanding. You can't just pin a kid on a man because he loves a woman and her child.

notsobad's picture

He can be, yes.

If BM has been a SAHM and he’s been supporting the family, the courts will treat him the same as a bio father.

Doorsy's picture

Child support and a co are to different things. A good attorney can get bm the extras she wants by dragging dad back to court. Now she may get child support then wait a year and then pursue extras but either way courts want kids involved in activities and they, most of the time, will make dad share the expenses.

Acratopotes's picture

Oh mum would hit a brick wall on Mars lol.

First the courts will tell her, sorry DNA might show he's the father but you did not bother for 10 years, his name is not on the BC, he has no legal liability, it was your choice live with it.

Mum would not be able to do anything is Dad refused to take DNA tests and no court would force him....

Courts would tell Mum.... sorry your little snowflake does not need to be in a private school when we have public schools, sorry your little snowflake does not need xxxxxx just because you want increased CS.

CS is calculated as per inflation, currently living cost of a child is only basic, roof,utilities,food,education and medical free is public,
then they divide the amount by 2, cause there's 2 parents and the father only pays his share, court gives a crap if you want to live the high life and have private education, they say... if public school is good enough for 10 000 children then it's good enough for your child as well..

FrenchPeas's picture

In Texas we have an amount cap. Over $250,000 salary you cap out at about $1800 a kid. That’s it. Multiple kids are figured differently.

RE the story we are being told, she and her husband make plenty. And the plan was to put all the daddy warbucks money in the bank. If so, why the private school and braces and all this other mess? See the huge contradiction? So are they saving it or spending it?

Livingoutloud's picture

My OSD has a child with no paternity established. She lied to her boyfriend that it was his (or she didn’t know) but when the baby came out it was obvious he is not the father (different race). Well for few days he wasn’t sure, then it was clear. So he dumped her.

She then was on her own and then tried to get some one night stand to be a daddy because baby looks like him. Formal paternity wasn’t established though. I don’t know if he agreed to be the “father”. She then left the state with a baby. No CS, no paternity, nothing.

We don’t know who the father is. YSD says she might not know herself. So 10 years from Now she might go after some unsuspecting dude. Despicable