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What is Normal?

Rumplestiltskin's picture

I recently posted about my SO starting to take Adderall. Now he is determined to start taking testosterone. He had his measured at the doctor and it was in the normal range, but he wants it higher and he plans to find a way to get it. All this got me thinking "why now?"

So I did a bad thing. I looked at his texts while he was in the shower. I know, it's bad, which is why i haven't done it in the past, though I have gotten upset about things i've seen that just flashed on the screen when he was with me (texts from his hs gf, things like that.) The ones I saw looked very innocent. Family, friends, a few female coworkers but all about work.

Then, however, I pushed the "recently deleted" button. There were thousands. I only got a chance to look at a small sample, but i looked at about a dozen senders. The thing is, though, none of the ones I saw were outright cheating. Some mildly flirty banter with female coworkers. Honestly, a lot of the flirting was clearly them trying to butter him up to take a shift. Some mildly flirty gossipy banter with female friends. A back and forth with Britney about finding her some pills that her pharmacy was out of. Also, for some reason he deletes the texts between himself and one of his brothers, though I ran out of time to look to see why. He leaves all his other siblings' texts visible. 

OK, I realize that neither my checking nor his deleting is ok. But, if he's not outright cheating, and he deletes because we have different ideas about what is normal for a person in a relationship as far as communication with opposite sex friends, how "normal" is he? How many women do your husbands/SO's text with daily? How many of those are single female friends? Do they say things like "What's up my favorite pharmacist?" with a winky face?

I pretended to be asleep when he came out of the shower. I didn't want to fight and I haven't said anything yet. I realize this relationship is going a bad direction. I just wonder, does he delete because my ideas about "appropriate" are outdated or prudish?  For future reference I don't want to fk up other relationships.

Also, after I looked, it shows that one text is unread, though when I scrolled back for months I couldn't find one. Not sure how to fix that, but if he asks I will just play dumb for now. After all, honesty is apparently dead in this relationship. 

Comments

justmakingthebest's picture

He is deleting because he feels guilty. 

I'm sorry to say, I don't think that behavior is normal. 

Rumplestiltskin's picture

Yeah, i know it's bad. I only read maybe 10 out of 1000 messages, so idk how bad it gets. I guess my question is, what IS normal when it comes to a married or engaged guy and his female friends or coworkers? I think my SO requires more attention and stimulation than others. Do other guys really have time to do all this talking and texting? Do they feel the need to? I don't talk to a fraction of that many people per day. Am i just an introvert and expecting too much (or little?) 

justmakingthebest's picture

It really isn't normal at all. I work with almost all guys- I'm only ever in contact with them for strictly work purposes. There is no flirty banter. 

The excuse of he "needs more attention" is wrong. That's not what this is about. He is disrespecting you and your marriage. He doesn't "need" to talk to women. He needs to be a better more connected partner with you. 

I would talk to him about this. His behavior isn't something that I could personally cope with. 

Winterglow's picture

I think he may have misinformed ideas about what higher T could do for him. 

I cannot imagine that a doctor would prescribe TRT for a man whose T levels are normal. It isn't without considerable risks (stroke, heart attack, etc ).

I'd definitely want to know why he wants to take more hormones...

Rumplestiltskin's picture

His doctor said no, but SO knows people. He can get it if he wants. He said "I am not an average man and I deserve to feel my best. Average testosterone is not acceptable to me." I, too, wonder why he's suddenly needing testosterone and pep pills. That's why i did what i did. I've seen texts on his phone before and gotten upset, but it was just that they happened to text him right when he had the phone up in front of me. An example is his high school girlfriend. He told me he occasionally bumped into her at the store and was cordial, but that was it. One day a text from her popped up and it was her asking some medical question. I thought "hmm, they text, but back when they dated cellphones hadn't even been invented." And the text immediately above it was a "sext" from around the time he and I started dating but hadn't had the "exclusive" talk. So, he lied. But i only saw it because it happened to flash when I was looking. If he had told me he still had this "pseudo" relationship with her going, i probably would have gotten upset. So he hid it. I think that's just the kind of person he is. Likes a lot of attention and stimulation, though he justifies it because he isn't actually cheating. 

dragonfly878's picture

I'd straight up confront him. "Why are you texting other women- then deleting those texts? Yes, I went through your phone because I thought something might be up. Clearly I was right so my going through your phone is NOT the issue- your going outside of our marriage for attention, is. So, care to explain?" 

Guys try to flip it. The problem isn't you going through his phone- the problem is you not trusting him and him prooving you right. 

Rumplestiltskin's picture

The good news is that we are engaged but do not yet live together. I stay at his place about half the time and he stays at mine the other half, but there will be no papers to file or even stuff to move. But yeah, you're right, I will not let him flip it. 

ndc's picture

My DH's text exchanges with females are mostly with his mother. Occasionally he texts with my mother or BM (related to skids). He does have one long-term female friend who lives OOS and with whom he has a brother-sister type relationship who he communicates with fairly often, but more on SM than text. He doesn't have many female co-workers, certainly none he sees for more than a passing minute in the office (he's in the trades and mostly out at jobsites). So to me your SO's texting with women doesn't seem normal.

Have you asked him why he wants to take testosterone? That seems odd if his is normal.

Rumplestiltskin's picture

Thanks. That's what I was wondering. What is the typical texting/female friend pattern of men, especially those over 50. And SO said "I haven't been working out my whole life for my testosterone to be average. I deserve to feel my best!" 

Rumplestiltskin's picture

And i guess my SO just can't do anything in moderation. With his BMs, it's either hating each other or hanging out at his house and eating dinner together every day. Also, both his marriages ended with him cheating. He told me he did a lot of soul-searching and had changed. But the way he acts, he has not changed. As soon as he feels he "deserves" it, he will have many women to choose from, since he keeps them all around, even if it's at arm's length while he's being "good." And with elevated testosterone and amphetamines, he can keep the pace up. 

NieMojCyrk's picture

"With his BMs, it's either hating each other or hanging out at his house and eating dinner together every day."

That would be enough for me to walk away. 

Winterglow's picture

From what you're saying, it's only a question of time before he cheats again. Why would you stay with someone who you can't trust, who lies to you and who certainly gives the impression of a man out trawling for new 'friends'?

Mominit's picture

Putting aside the phone for a minute, let's look at the cause, not the symptoms.  He says he deserves to feel his best, so what part of his best is missing? Is it something physical that he hasn't shared with you (or that the doctor doesn't deem significant?).  Is it mental? Is he fighting ageing (women aren't the only ones who look in the mirror and hate the weight, the wrinkles and the sag).  Perhaps he's feeling like he's losing his edge and that testosterone will help him bulk up, lose the age related weight and make him the teenager (or 20 year old) he sees in his mind rather than the attractive man you see when you look at him.

Perhaps a discussion of WHAT he's trying to accomplish with his sudden interest in amphetamines and testosterone.  I know if my DH came to me with the thought that he'd be starting on a pill regiment for any reason I'd want to know why, what he hoped to get out of it, and what the risks were (getting them illegally would be a risk too far!).  And if I could empathsize with his struggle, I'd support it (legally).  If not, I'd make sure he know how attractive I think he still is, ask if my ageing bothers him as much as his, and if he's being realistic.  If it's an emotional problem I'd lay it on the line that this is the type of thinking that leads men to look for more and more attention until they find the person willing to stroke their ego and kill their marriage.  That eventually everyone gets old, and he's not some Hugh Hefner with millions of dollars to pay some 20 something year old girl to so she'll pretend he's hot.  He's a great guy with a great woman, who still finds him attractive and he's having regular, quality sex.  So he needs to get his emotions sorted out before he screws that up for the third time!

Rumplestiltskin's picture

I know he recently switched to the day shift, and he's no longer the "top dog" at work. He also used to work out every day, but now only does a few times per week. But - he replaced the workouts with approx 40 hours per week at the pool hall! He rarely sees his kids, too. He is still in an open court case against BM2, so that's been hard. I know he has a lot of stressors, but he isn't overweight at all. We are engaged, together 5 years, and stay together every night but each have our own houses. Thank Goodness. Idk if i should end it now or talk to him honestly and see of i get any honesty in return. I know no person is perfect, and i do wonder when is close enough good enough. But i know that *this* isn't remotely close enough. I don't want a big fight or a lot of drama. I'm tired, too. But, i'm off today and i'm going to the gym. I'm trying to act out of logic and not just blow up out of emotion. 

ESMOD's picture

1.  It's not normal for most men to have daily texting conversations with women who are not related to them .  

     I would consider my DH is on the high end of being a communicator for a man.  He has multiple texts or calls with any number of people daily.. including ME.. his daughters.. his father.. MY father.. and other male friends.  My husband does not have many "non-related" females in his phone.. the few he has are not in his heavy rotation of communication.. just acquaintances on the outer rim of our universe..   He does have some women that work at his place of business.. but no business need for them to communicate.

That is the only small slice of possibility is that if he does have to communicate directly to cover shifts.. perhaps.. and being "nice" is not  the end of the world.. but I don't use winky emojis when I am asking my coworkers a favor.. lol.

2.  Re the Low T thing.. does he listen to a lot of talk radio where they harp on those commercials.. "low t"?  Is he particularly gullible to claims of things "changing your life?"

   Otherwise.. big changes or wanting to make big changes in appearance.. ability.. etc.. seems to point towards someone that is seeking out something or someone new.  wanting to look or be their best for that unknown.. because certainly.. you have told him you find him more than adequate I'm sure.

3.  Deleting emails.. especially in a focused way is not normal.  I could see freeing up space on a device by deleting en mass with perhaps some things retained.. but just women? uh.. that seems suspect.  

4.  2x prior cheater?  It's almost the nail in the coffin to the likelihood that this is all an innocent misunderstanding.

Rumplestiltskin's picture

Yeah, as far as the winky emojis from the one trying to get her shift covered...it looked like she knew that flattery would get it covered. I think SO has a long history of attention seeking and needing his ego stroked. I don't know why i thought he would change as he got older. And I shudder to think how he will act on the testosterone and amphetamines together. It's like he has tried to mature but just can't stand it. 

Sadielady's picture

Not saying this is the case for you, but I knew my first marriage was over the day I checked my ex's phone. I realized that even if I didn't finf anything, he had behaved in ways that made me question him. We were together for 18 years previously and I had never felt the need to check up on him. 
 

ETA: the next time you get your hands on his phone, check hist snapchat. If he doesn't have an icon on his screen, check his settings to see if he has it. Apparently, using snapchat instead of rextbis cheating 101. 

Survivingstephell's picture

Don't try to logic yourself into wasted years with him. Trust your gut. Use the facts about past behaviors.  Use the new info you have about him.   What would you tell your best friend or sister?   Acknowledge the red flags.  

CLove's picture

Husband is a mechanic that does side jobs. Women text him about their cars, but he has no ex gf or "women friends" that he back and forths with.

Emotional cheating is still cheating. Texting is dancing the lines.

Listen to your instincts.

Rumplestiltskin's picture

Yeah, to me, that's the line. It's one thing to text women coworkers about work, or even friends (there are a few female friends that he doesn't delete, that i have been fine with.) But with Britney it's about drugs, and he has some other women that he sort of gossips with or talks about his issues with his ex with. Friendly but also pretty personal, with lots of winky and kissy emojis, but under the guise of being just really friendly in a platonic way. Very "borderline." 

halo1998's picture

BUT HELL TO THE NO IS THIS OK...I work with all men and have for the last 30 years....I do not text them other for work issues, etc. I might talk a bit to my co-workers but they are that CO-WORKERS.  No need for me to text them after hours, at home.  The fact he is deleting them shows HE KNOWS IT ISN'T OK.  

He doesn't need more attention than "normal" ..HE NEEDS THERAPY.  

Ah..so ya my DH (in this instance dick head husband) thought that texting other women wasn't cheating and it was "seperate" from our marriage.  KNow what..it was cheating and it certainly wasn't seperate. It about destroyed his marriage, his relationship with his daughter.  Dh too thought..he "needed" the attention since I was so busy. Yea..I was busy running our lives and taking care of his kids.  He didn't "need" more attention he needed to get his head out of his ass..step up and help me out and support me.  Once he realized and started that..magically our relationship got better..that and I wasn't sharing a marriage with hundreds (yes hundreds) of other women.  Oh and let me add this...during the years DH was texting every whore known to man...he also was working out and wanted testostorone, etc.   I thought it was weird..but now I know why.

I'm going to be blunt..until your SO gets some serious therapy..he will continue to do this.  He will seek out superficial "relationships" with other women..cause it makes him feel good.  Your SO needs to find out why he is driven to this..and until he does..he will be a shitty partner for anyone.

Stepdrama2020's picture

Is this bothers you. So yes its an issue.

Frankly this would bother anyone who wants a monogamous relationship.

This doesnt pass the smell test.

Stay living apart until tommy texter puts proper boundaries on all his lady friends. Add to being the texting deleter, not kewl.

Im a pessimist so I see this as an ongoing problem. He cheated in the past, chances are texting may be the least of your problemos hun.

MissK03's picture

I didn't read everyone's responses but this is my opinion. I talk to a male ex co worker (still same company but not together) of mine almost everyday. He's 20 years older then me... has also  know me since I was 19/20... im 37 now. SO knows him, we all go out etc. Another couple we are close with is someone (husband) Ive met at work who are in their early 50s too. I communicate with both but mainly the husband for plans. It's just how it is.. We vacation with them we are that close. 

I've also been in multiple group texts with all males that I've worked with.. this chat goes everyday. SO knows everyone in it. Variety of ages... and I show him half the stuff anyways. It's all fun.

SO is more "quite" when it comes to his female co workers but he doesn't interact with people like I do for work. 

Every situation is different. SO has never shown any jealous because there is legit no reason for him too.

In your case... I think your SO is just headed down a path of wanting to be young again and this Britney chick is bad news.

My SO has talked about going on TRT. He is 46 he doesn't need it now but he will at one point. He is a work out type etc. SO deletes random stuff out of his phone too. Mine I have texted from years ago still in here haha.

I think your SO is down a dark path IMO. I'm sorry this is happening.

EDIT: none of my convos are flirty to and receiving. It's a lot of work drama, ball breaking or all of us talking crap.

Harry's picture

So what ever drugs she is on is ok I guest I don't have a MD can't comment on drugs.   But more importantly is your life with a sick SD.  You didn't signed up for this. You don't have to stay 

Cover1W's picture

I had a gut instinct with my exH, and boy was it correct. Yes, I did check his phone after he got verrrrrry protective of it. One night he basically passed out (oh, alcohol and drugs too - fun times) I checked it an yep, there it was. He denied it to high h*ll over and over, but even IF they weren't sleeping together the sexual innuendo and meeting up when I was at work (sometimes right after I'd leave for work and she'd "leave the door open for him"), yeah, no. Then he locked his phone down and forgot about his laptop which he had moved to his dresser instead of the shared office. Idiot.

Testosterone!  My DH is on that as well, just a small dose. When he was diagnosed with ADD years ago, he was also diagnosed with low testosterone. If he doesn't take it, it dips super low and boy, he's annoying. BUT if he takes too much - watch out. He was on too high of a dose for a while and he was mean, argumentative, dismissive and just plain horrible. I was considering possibly leaving if it continued. He finally figured out something was wrong, got a lower dose and has not had an issue since. So no, it's not a little thing to do, esp. on top of ADD meds.

Cover1W's picture

My exH? It was only a matter of 3 months and I was lining things up to go. He apparently did break it off with the chick, and tried to repair things with me but it didn't last. The next time I felt that 'not right' feeling I found the proof (including reference to his wanting to try with me still), kept it, left a note that I was filing for divorce the next morning ( I already had it lined up), and had a place to stay. Boom, done.

ndc's picture

Did your SO do therapy or otherwise work on himself after his first two marriage ended with him cheating? Did he try to figure out what in him was broken that he'd dishonor his vows and cheat? If not, I doubt he's changed. It may just be a matter of time before the desire or opportunity presents itself.  The more women he's texting, the more opportunity to go over the line.  Regardless of what other men do (and I answered your question above with what my H does), I'd be very concerned in your situation. 

AlmostGone834's picture

Ugh I'm so sorry. I hate this for you. Regardless if he is crossing a line or not by society's standards, what he's doing is bothering you and that's not ok. I hate it when my DH's crazy ex bothers him (and he doesn't text her back that I know of but it still upset me). I would be upset by what your SO is doing. 

Livingoutloud's picture

He is a jerk. Time to move on. I am sorry but there is no way you should stay wuth this man another day

DPW's picture

This situation simply continues to spiral. Get out before it gets even worse. He is not a quality man in many ways and you deserve to be matched with someone much better than this. 

Merrigan's picture

Although I don't know the dynamics of your relationship, this puts up a lot of red flags to me. My DH and I are roughly the same ages as you and your's, and the behaviours your SO is exhibiting are similar to my ex boyfriend from almost 20 years ago. Juvenile, emotionally stunted and attention seeking actions. It's not something I would put up with at my age now.

Edit: My ex was schtupping any woman who paid enough attention to him at the end of our relationship, and he also deleted texts and spent time "networking" at parties and bars.