ROFR- Similar Experiences?
The the topic was brought up on another blog of Right of First Refusal, and it got me thinking about some of the issues we've faced with this. I'm curious if others have had similar experiences.
First to define ROFR: My understanding is that the essence of this clause is if parent A cannot care of for the child during their custody time, they must offer the child to parent B before finding alternate care. DH's CO does not specify a time limit. Does this apply to overnights, a few hours while he is at work, or just 10 minutes while DH has to run an errand?
We have run into so many issues with this in the past. BM would like to think that ROFR means that if SD is not in DH's care for ANY amount of time, then BM should be notified and offered time. BM freaks out any time SD is left alone with me even for just 15 minutes while DH runs up to the grocery store. But it's not just me. She threw a FIT when DH's sister took SD out for the afternoon for lunch and to get her nails done claiming DH violated ROFR by not offering her custody. BM caused a massive scene when DH wanted to allow SD to spend the night with his mother.
None of these times were due to DH being unavailable or not wanting time with his DD. He just wanted to foster a relationship between his daughter and other family. Shouldn't he be allowed to portion out his time for things like this? BM even went as far as to tell SD she had to call BM anytime SD wasn't with DH. Of course we didn't know this. So one day DH left to run up and get pizza for dinner leaving SD home with me, and SD asked for my phone to call her mom to "tell on us".
We also have issues with the flip side of this coin. BM often calls DH offering him ROFR. Isn't that nice of her? Well not so much when she is calling the night before Valentine's Day asking him to drive an hour to pick SD up for just 2 hours and then drive her an hour back home. She loves to do this before holidays, birthdays; it's strategic. Of course if DH can't do it or claims he has plans, he is an absolutely horrible dad who doesn't want extra time when it's offered. BM claims she has documented all of these times he couldn't do it, and plans to use them against him in court. I really hope any judge can see right through that, but it's usually enough to guilt DH.
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"asking him to drive an hour
"asking him to drive an hour to pick SD up for just 2 hours and then drive her an hour back home"
If I were your DH, I would call and tell BM "Hey, going to pick up a pizza. Be here to get SD by 6pm and have her back by 620pm because I'll be back home" Do it every time he leaves. Going to the corner store, call. Running to grab dinner, call. Taking a walk around the neighborhood, call.
I'd be a pain in the ass about it.
So in DH's CO all exchanges
So in DH's CO all exchanges have to be at BM's house which is about an hour away. She requires him to take SD to her.
Ok. Got it. We have the same
Ok. Got it. We have the same thing. I think it's ridiculous.
Giving me flashbacks here.
Giving me flashbacks here. Chef also used to drive almost an hour one way to see his kids for an hour on weekdays then drive back again. The Girhippo did ZERO transport as after all, it's a favour that the BMs are doing ALLOWING dad to see his children, not his right (eye roll).
Chef was so desperate for any crumb of attention from the already PASed out skids that he would drop everything on a dime and race over to get them.
Then there were the endless "activities" the Gir would plan for them on HIS weekend--of course all an hour away from our house.
Don't miss those days. Once we moved closer to the skids, the Girhippo freaked and turned up the PAS to full volume.
When she was ANGRY at Chef, she would "punish" him by withholding visitation and giving babysitting privileges to any Tom, Dick and Harry she was dating during her internet dating phase.
I agree with this.. sounds
I agree with this.. sounds good but in reality needs to be very specific to not be unworkable.
IMHO.. ROFR should apply to more like 24/overnight situations.. or at the very minimum full days as a requirement to OFFER the other parent more time.
I think that a parent has the right to hire a babysitter for the evening, or allow a family member or SO spend time alone with the child barring some known safety issue. In an intact family.. parents go out without kids and get sitters all the time. Parents let their kids spend time with auntie or grandma alone..all the time.
If parent is going out of town on business and isn't within a decent proximity to the child, I think in those cases, the other parent should be offered the time.
We did talk to a lawyer at
We did talk to a lawyer at one point who advised us that ROFR was only for instances where you had to find a babysitter or alternate childcare. The way she explained it was if DH is available (as in SD could have went with him to get the pizza, or didn't HAVE to spend the night with grandma) then ROFR doesn't apply. If DH is available, he can choose to do whatever he wants with his time and share it with whomever he pleases. ROFR is only for instances when the parent with custody isn't available to watch the child and needs to find childcare. Of course, that doesn't keep BM from seeing it her way and throwing a fit.
Your friendly thoughts make
Your friendly thoughts make me smile.
Do you see it ever work that
Do you see it ever work that way though? You are repeatedly refusing extra time with your child. You are giving away what time you do have for SD to spend it with grandma, aunts, and SM. Why should the court grant you more time? I mean it makes a scary amount of sense when you put it that way. But don't courts also want to see parents who are fostering a relationship with extended family? Who work full time jobs and are responsible?
You're just being ridiculous.
You're just being ridiculous. Of course not all bonding time between GMA and SD has to be without DH.
SD WANTS to spend the night at GMA's and have one-on-one bonding time. Don't you have memories of staying at GMA's as a kid? I sure do, and I treasure those memories now that my GMA is gone. Why shouldn't SD have that too? I'm not talking about once a month but just ONCE IN HER LIFE. OMG.
What about when it isn't GMA? What happens when SD wants to have a slumber party at a friends house. Is she not allowed to go because BM's time is more important? This isn't about grandparents or friends being more important than parents. It's about the damn kid and having a normal childhood.
AMEN
AMEN
That's good to hear. I
That's good to hear. I believe that to be true in my state as well, but a threatening BM can certainly rip holes in any father's confidence. When every little thing is turned around to make DH seem unfit it keeps DH in constant fear of losing what rights and custody he has. It is a a nasty, manipulative trick, but unfortunately often effective.
Yes these things all sound
Yes these things all sound good in theory, but we all experience the reality of how they work in practice. If only our DHs knew this BEFORE they went through their divorces and agreed to the original CO. It just takes more money and more fights later to change them.
We have the opposite problem.
We have the opposite problem. BM refuses to allow dh to have the kids when she will be working or elsewhere. At one point, this last summer, she was out of town for the entire weekend, and left the kids with a "friend." She didn't even let dh know. The only reason he found out was because he happened to get a text from one of the kids asking for something to be dropped off.
When he contacted her, she threatened to call the cops if he stole the children from her.
We are waiting, building evidence to prove she is doing what were know and take her to court.
Oh yes. Our bipolar BM does
Oh yes. Our bipolar BM does this too. It's like figure out what end of the crazy spectrum you want to be on and stay there. Our BM will drop SD off somewhere, not tell DH, then when he finds out and asks he about it she says, "well last time I offered you custody you were busy so I'm just going to stop asking." sigh...
I've learned to stop obsessing and letting every little time bug me. I have a whole binder now where I log EVERYTHING. Times BM offered and if DH said yes or no. Times BM didn't offer. Times DH did or didn't offer and why. I'm not sure we will ever be able to afford to go back to court, but if we do (or are dragged back) I have my little binder of ammo. I feel like it's all I can offer DH in terms of support, because getting mad doesn't help.
My SO has this ROFR in his
My SO has this ROFR in his agreement and the ex definitely uses it as a weapon. It is pretty specific in their agreement b/c BM has a major control issue and he didn't fight it. She has in the agreement that his mother can't watch SD, his sister can't watch SD, she has ROFR and they have to agree on the sitter if there is a time when a sitter is needed. I can understand the agreeing to the sitter and wanting to protect your child. Of course I am not allowed to babysit SD ever. Again, usually not a problem because SO doesn't want to give up his time with his daughter or leave her with me to go golfing or party. The problem occurs when he has to work on the weekend that SD is with us (again not often b/c he tries to schedule according to his time with SD) but it has happened a few times and BM refuses to let him have SD because she doesn't want her left alone with me. She would even freak out if he ran to the mini mart around the corner for snacks (less than 10 minutes alone with me). I used to get offended by this seeing as I have no criminal record and no desire to harm her child and have managed to raise and care for my own children just fine. The last time his boss scheduled him on his weekend with SD she again wasn't going to let him have SD but he managed to get his boss to let him work 3am-noon rather than 7am-3pm so she allowed her to stay with me and of course called to check on her. It is so ridiculous b/c the approved sitter is of course BM's parents so SD gets lots of time with them but never allowed any time with SO's family unless he is with her. Also, SD is even aware of what her mom is doing, she told me (when she was allowed to stay with me), "Mom says that she just wants the extra time with me but I know she is lying, she just doesn't want you to watch me and I don't understand that because it isn't like you would ever hurt me!" I just told her she was right I would never hurt her and it is her mom's decision not mine. I also know that when BM had a live in bf that she would leave SD with him without giving ROFR to my SO because at the time we lived a block away and I would drive by sometimes and see him out in the yard with SD and his kids playing and her vehicle gone. For this BM it is all about control and double standards. She can let SD go to Bible School out of town with her bf's family and her not being present and SD can stay with her family but definitely never SO's!
I do know that is a lot of
I do know that is a lot of the issue so that is why I quit letting it bother me. This is her problem not mine. The only thing that she has effectively done with her control issues and insecurities is make me want to disengage from her daughter. Funny how my money is good enough to buy her gifts and make sure she has a room at our place and food but I am not good enough to "babysit" her. In the beginning BM would even state all the time, "Your GF is not SD's mother. I am", lol, no shit lady! I never once tried to step in as SD's mom or act like her mom or make any decisions about SD b/c she has 2 very involved parents. Now, I am actually glad that she doesn't want her to be left alone with me because SD creates a lot more chaos with my boys when she is there and I don't want to watch her. Also, it is fun to tell BM that if she doesn't want her to stay with me she can drive round trip to get her and bring her back
Go ahead and waste your time and gas by all means! 
I'm with Ninji. Have DH
I'm with Ninji. Have DH text... running to the pharmacy, you can have SD from 12-12:15. Going to get pizza you can have SD from 6-6:20.
If your RFOR does not indicate a time limit I doubt it indicates transportation. My argument would be DH is responsible for transportation during custody exchange times only. If BM chooses to use RFOR she needs to do the transportation.
Yes she is asked to tell on
Yes she is asked to tell on us. There was also a time we asked her if she wanted to go shopping with her aunt (to pick out her Bday present) and SD replied, "I can't, mommy said I'm not allowed to go without daddy."
That was a very hard time. I had to leave the room. I can't keep a straight face while DH calmly tried to explain that when SD is with him, daddy is in charge not mommy. If daddy says you can go, you can go. Can you imagine explaining that to a kid?! I mean you are essentially trying to explain to them that it's okay to disobey their mom. How confusing to a child! As essentially wrong as that sounds, BM brought this on herself with her stupid antics. I just hope it doesn't backfire on us.
Mind you this was a few years ago. SD is older now and understands. Thankfully, we haven't had too many similar issues in recent years. I'm not sure if BM gave up or if SD just stopped listening. Either way... it's so sad.
UGH I can't imagine getting
UGH I can't imagine getting that attitude from SD "my mom's gonna be so mad at you guys, you guys are gonna be in so much trouble." I would nip that in the butt before SD starts getting manipulative!
For us, it was just more sad for SD. She's a good kid, and doesn't want to disappoint her mom. She doesn't want to disobey, break BM's rules, and get in trouble with BM. It was more that SD thought it was HER fault that BM was mad. DH had to explain that spending time with family was NOT doing anything wrong, and if BM got mad about it she should be mad at HIM.
This topic strikes a nerve
This topic strikes a nerve for me too.
"BM often calls DH offering him ROFR. Isn't that nice of her? Well not so much when she is calling the night before Valentine's Day asking him to drive an hour to pick SD up for just 2 hours and then drive her an hour back home. She loves to do this before holidays, birthdays; it's strategic. Of course if DH can't do it or claims he has plans, he is an absolutely horrible dad who doesn't want extra time when it's offered."
This. This right here was our life for a good year or two when we lived in the same city as BM.
BM would often text DH on holidays, while we were enjoying a nice Valentine's Day dinner out at a restaurant, on DH's bike race weekends and we were hours away, and just last minute in general.
It was always "Do you want to see your daughter?"
Well, of course he did, but not at the tune of dropping our forks and paying the bill in order to get home. Or, up and leave a race before he has even had the chance to, to get on the road home. And trust me, in the beginning, DH did just that until I demanded he stop jumping when BM said jump. Of course, then he was a bad dad, and she was going to let skid know daddy didn't want to see her. It was utter BS. It wasn't long after DH putting his foot down that BM began PAS. She'd bypass asking DH altogether, even for legitimate circumstances, because BM was going to show him you don't tell her "no".
I admit, moving across the country far, far away has had its perks in regards to ROFR games.
It got to the point where is
It got to the point where is was SOOO predictable. Valentines Day, anniversaries, my birthday (how she knows that date is beyond me). Our solution was about a solid year where we didn't make plans on those dates. Like clockwork BM called, "can you take SD for an hour tonight?" DH: "Yes of course. Thank you!" BM and hour later: "Oh never mind, my meeting was canceled" ...yeah sure okay... DH and I proceeded to go out for a nice birthday dinner. After a year of this, BM stopped offering. I hate playing her games, but sometimes it is possible to beat them at their own game.