Is finance codependent with her adult kids. Opinions please
Thank you in advance. I'm really looking forward to hearing others view points and opinions with my frustration with my fiance and her adult children. Please be forthright and honest. I'm very willing to accept that I'm wrong in my frustrations. If I'm wrong, please educate me as to why you feel this way.
Summary- My finance who I've been with over 5 years wants to spend at least a half a day each weekend with her mid 20's and late 20's YO daughters. She typically has them over to our home for a Sunday dinner. My frustration is in two parts-
1) While I like/love her daughters, I don't want to spend EVERY weekend hanging out with them. They come over here, she cooks them dinner and they sit around watching TV or shooting the breeze. I think they are codependent. All three of them. When me and my friends reached 22 years old, we had no desire to spend a 1/2 a day of our weekends w/our parents. And to be honest, I don't think our parents wanted us hanging out with them each weekend. I was very close with my Mother as well. My thought (right or wrong) is her kids need to get a life. The older daughter is not married nor in a relationship and is high maintenance. She has a weight problem. She requires lots of life guideance from her mother, especailly with finances. My Finance and I have had to bail her out several times by loaning her money.
2) Her kids are takers and not givers. They NEVER receprocate. When we go out to eat at resturants, they never reach for their wallets despite the fact they both have full time jobs. I've brought this up to them several times in a gentle way. I'd ask "help me here, why is it expected that we pay for your meals all the time?" They just shrug it off like I'm being a jerk. Their mother feeds them all the time at our home. They never bring anything with them and take home left overs and our tuberware that's rarely returned. This really angers me. Never do they ask us over to their place where they make a meal. Never do they say "hey, come over to our area (the sisters live close to each other in different apartments) cause we want to take you both out for a pizza and beer. They never bring dinner over with them on a Sunday. It's just expected that we feed them and pay for their meals when we're out.
My contention is due to the fact that my finance's ex husband and father of her kids divorced and the kids were raised in a tough environment, she feels remorse or that she "owes" her kids for what was missing when they were kids. Her kids milk it for all it's worth. They didn't have much money the last years of the marriage and after they divorced. All mothers want to be needed by their kids. I understand this. However, this just seems too much.
Again, if I'm wrong with being frustrated and feeling smothered by having her kids around all the time, I'm willing to accept it. However, I just think this isn't a normal adult children/parent relationship for them to spend this much time with each other. I can't think of any other friend who's kid do this.
Thanks for reading in advance and your thoughts.
Nah. You are not wrong in
Nah. You are not wrong in your expectations for your adult Skids. When we go out to dinner with my parents it is the usual rush to pull the wallet before my dad does. We end up splitting the bill then badgering each other over who got gyped out of the extra penny. It is our thing.
When we are with my ILs, we pay because they pretty much can't. Particularly now that my FIL has passed.
If my brother and his family are present, we all go thirds.
If my estended IL clan is present, we pay for ourselves my MIL and her sister (DW's Aunt) and leave the three other ILfamilies to cover their own. One of the three other families n(SILs clan) is usually attempting to get someone to pay for theirs but... it is never us. They are finally learning to either bring money or not attend.
It is time for you to only pick up the bill for you and your bride. Make sure that you do this first after a very expensive meal. It makes for a more firm lesson.
Good luck.
Welcome to the site!
Have you told your fiancee that you find a chunk of each weekend spent with her freeloading daughters too much, or that you resent the way she infantilizes them by never asking them to buy you both lunch or cook for you for a change? If not, you need to like, now.
My advice to anyone who joins the site saying they are about to marry and make it permanent, yet has serious concerns about their partner's parenting, is setting up a whole load of grief for themselves down the line. You should sort this out now, while you still have a relatively easy escape route and no legal commitment to this woman. Remain single until you are happier with the arrangements.
Make plans to spend the weekend away
Go someplace for the weekend. Normally parents pay for kids dinner regardless of there age.
Having the "kids" over
For Sunday dinner is not too much in my book. Some extended families are like that. If it is cutting into your time together maybe you could compromise with her to get together every other weekend. But the other stuff would worry me. Why are you involved in loaning them money? Are your finances completely joint? Maybe it's time to separate them. Making "suggestions" to them about them picking up the check or other aspects of their behavior never goes well from what I've seen nere. I'd just stay out of it and stop participating if its coming out of yoir wallet. It does sound like there is some enabling going on.
Well, I was going to say that
Well, I was going to say that Sunday dinner wasn’t too much until you got into the part about bailing out the older girl and your fiancée wanting to feel needed and feeling guilty about her divorce. That’s the part that’s worrisome to me.
The bottom line though, is that you can’t decide what kind of relationship she has with her kids. You can only let her know how you feel and see how she responds and whether she can see your viewpoint or not. Don’t get married in the meanwhile. And YOU stop paying for anything for them. If she wants to take them to dinner and pay that’s her business.
Thank you for your thoughts everyone
We've been in a holding pattern for over three years of engagement. I'm not committing to a wedding date until some of these issues get resolved and if not, we'll part ways. I'm seriously considering couple therapy as maybe her hearing another view point will help her understand my feelings better. Bottom line is marraige will never happen unless this types of issues get resolved to where it's fair for both of us.
I like the idea of not paying when her kids join us for dinner. I'll tell her if we're all going out, I'll pay for her and I's dinner but not her kids. If she wants to keep paying for them, that fine. I'll also tell her that I resent like hell the fact that she never holds her kids accountable to receprocate and spend their money on us.
Frankly, if after three years
Frankly, if after three years, none of this has changed in a manner that works for you, it's time to move on. She may not be willing to change the way she interacts with her kids, and that's fine. All you can do is decide whether or not you can put up with it long term.
Things won't change
Even if you went to couples therapy, she might just say what you want to hear to make you happy but the behaviors and the relationships she has with her adult daughters will likely NOT change...it's working for her and for them. They are taking, you are giving. This won't change unless you put the brakes on it.
The dynamics are not likely to change and your resentment will grow even if you get married. Best of luck to you!
The Sunday visits are not
The Sunday visits are not ideal, but I could tolerate that. It’s not that much time.
HOWEVER, paying for stuff all the time, loaning money, excessive mentoring around financial issues....that’s a problem.
2) Her kids are takers and
2) Her kids are takers and not givers. They NEVER receprocate.
Welcome to the club...
I have been married for 30 years, his kids (now in their 40's) always have their hand out and expect to be treated like they are still 12 and daddy has it so he "should." When they were in their 20's it was "almost" justifiable as they all were going through their ups and downs but now its just ridiculous.
So, no, you are not wrong. This is a classic cycle of enabling behavior sparked on by guilt trips and fueled by major entitlement issues. And, if you and your fiance do not nip it in the butt, it will never end (see above paragraph).
The last time my husband went to visit his SD45, I was furious at her because she mentioned taking him to a ball game and guess who paid for it? He did. I said something to the effect that you just said in "When does it end and your kids do something nice for you, like buy a baseball ticket to a game." NEVER.
If the adult children are entitled, then they are owed something, and you are correct, grown adult women in their 20's should be going out, living life, having a life, not parked on the couch watching TV like old grannies. But then, maybe it's a generational thing? I don't know and I don't get it either.
There's some great view points provided here. Thanks
That's one thing nice about forums. You get to hear all sorts of view points to a situation or problem. I understand that kids in there 20's are still finding there way. I also understand that in many familys, the parents ALWAYS pay for dinner when the family gets together for an event and goes out to family.
I think my core frustration is I simply resent that they just never give back. No thought in their brains to say "hey, we're coming over Sunday, what can we bring". Or, as I've mentioned, never a thought to insist on taking us out to pizza or other cheap meal. My Fiance's brother has also noticed this behavior of his sisters kids and thinks it's wrong on the kids part and my gals part. He thinks she's enabling her kids as well.
As to the every weekend hang outs; I think it's weird, plane and simple.The late 20's daughter needs to get a life and not hang out with mommy to entertain and feed her. The other daughter has a long time BF but he works weekends so she hangs out with us as well. My gal and I have had frequent arguments about this situation. She understands I DO NOT want to spend every weekend with her daughters nor am I going to sit in that room with them for hours when they are here. I'm not sure it will stick though which is why I think couple therapy could "tell the tale" or not if this relationship will make it. I'm clearly understanding her kids will always take precedence over me but I didn't enter this relationship with the understanding that this was going to happen either.
Kids are never the priority
Kids are never the priority in quality durable marriages. Whether the marriages are first or subsequent marriages. The partner and the marriage always take precedence for the spouses in the marriage.
Particularly when the kids are adults.
IMHO of course.
This/These Situation(s) Will Not Improve On Their Own
If you're thinking couples therapy pre-marriage, I'm frightened for you, although I get WHY you're thinking has gone in that direction.
I would propose 1 week-end afternoon per month at your home, (and insist that etiquette dictates the girls BRING SOMETHING), and the rest is at the girls' places. For instance, the first Sunday is yours to host, the 2nd is thing ONE's to host, and the third goes to thing TWO, and the last week-end is yours. Or something like this with regard to scheduling. By making them bring something, they learn it's participatory, not 100% funded by you and their mom. By hosting, they may begin to see, "Oh, it's work and costs money to play hostess."
When you eat out, this is very simply solved. You tell the waitstaff, "She (your girlfriend/fiance) and I are on one check" in advance of even getting your drink order submitted. What ever way the girls want to work it out, going dutch or whatever, is on them.
You must know, if you say or do nothing, then nothing will change, except for the worse.
You're a smart man to postpone nuptials until (or if) these issues get ironed out.
Remember: No sex is so great you should have to tolerate misery on any level! And, with these issues, sex will soon become non-existent, as either she or you will become resentful, and sex with someone you're grouchy with is never fun.
Update to this older thread
I want to thank everyone who took the time to post their view points/experiences with me last year in this thread. I also am here to update this. After I posted her last year, her and I had a long, hard conversation where I explained what I was willing to accept and not accept. I got my point across to her that I would not spend every weekend with her kids plopped on the couch for hours and hours. If she HAS to see her kids each weekend, she can drive over and see them. This has been working for the most part. My finance has also been hearing from her brother and others that SHE has to change in how she parents them. She needs to stop enabling them. However, in this area, she's failed.
Her 25 YO daughter got beat up by her loser 7 year BF. We thought "finally" she'll move on after this break up. This daughter lied to her Mom and sister and said she wasn't seeing him the past few months. We'll, a couple weeks ago, it came to light that she was and he was still verbally abusing her. We did an intervention a few days ago with several people to try and explain to her daughter (again) that her relationship was toxic, dysfunctional and now violent. Why on earth is she not moving on? Does she want to get beat up or killed by this guy? They don't live together. This daughter and that loser have broken up at least 15 times in the last 5 years. What happens? Yup, she's all over Mom for comfort, support, etc.. Wash, rinse repeat. So now my Fiance says "we" need to be there for her (again) and she'll propably be over here at least weekly. This lead to a pretty loud argument as I flat told her "no, your kids are not coming over her weekly again, period". She got very angry and told me I'm not compassionate. I told her that is not the truth but I tell you I'm sick of your "taking" kids coming over here, eating our food and NEVER offering to bring anything with them. I told her that her kids have NOT been held accountable for their "TAKING" behavior and never giving back. As you can imagine, it was a lively argument. I told her flatly that she's the reason her kids are where they are as she NEVER holds them accountable and only enables both of them. I think her kids play her like a violin and use her for emotional and financial reasons because they gotten away with it their whole lives.
If anything "good" came out of our argument, I got some of my anger/frustrations off my chest. She has to know what she's doing in enabling her kids is wrong. But, she won't change and I'm NOT going to live the rest of my life with her two ADULT kids BS.
Many commented on "don't marry her". Oh trust me.. There's a reason we have been engaged for four years and counting. There is NO marriage on the horizon due to her kids and her parenting/co-dependency with her kids. I live in a state w/out common law and our finances have never been intertwined. If she didn't have these kids, we'd of been married years ago because we get along fantastic with the only issues being her kids and her spending habits. She's a spender and I'm a saver.
Thank you for reading in advance and for your thoughts. I'm hopeful I'll get back to a baseline blood pressure soon.
I think we've reached a breaking point in this relationship. I'm exhausted by her kids and our arguments over them. Marriage is and has been out of the question for the past few years. If she can't make changes in her parenting/enabling and the time she needs to spend with her kids, it would probably be best that we go different directions. That's not what I want and I'm still considering conseuling as a last resort for someone neutral to tell her she's damaging her kids by her parenting. At the same time, my late mother use to always tell me "people don't change".. Many on this site feel the same.
IDK..
Your mom was very wise.
Your mom was very wise.
Run!
Get counseling for yourself and the transition of moving the heck on with your life and not repeating the pattern in your next dating relationship. I've been in relationships and knew men that enabled their adult daughters. So what if she admits she's a crappy parent? She either doesn't know how to change or that their dysfuntional lives are working for them...drama and all.
My mom, rest her soul, would say about people being takers and selfish...'they wouldn't pi$s on me if I was on fire!' I was on fire and no one bothered to pi$s on me so I left that hot mess of a burning house!
I do think that is one thing
I do think that is one thing that many forget, even counselors, and that is there is some pretty dysfunctional crap that goes down in families where there is little to no motivation to change because, in some odd, weird way or so, it works for them. No matter how bizarre, since it works for the 2, 3 or so involved, there will automatically be the tendency to see the sane outsider (the SP or potential SP) as THE one who is the one with the problem. Not them. Thus, you get this very asinine situation where you have three dysfunctional people, including your SO, all jumping around acting like they are just A-OK, but the only sane person in the room is not. It's been called gaslighting, but it goes deeper when you have an entire group, almost in a cult-like way, participating to make you out to be the bad guy. This is how many a SP winds up with the label Evil SM or Evil step-dad.
As a SP it is nearly impossible to feel that deep connected love with someone with so much dysfunction going on in their own family and also to not have it affect you. Something the OP said above struck me too. It was, "I simply resent that they never give back." If I had to define SP'ing in one sentence, right or wrong, for better or for worse, I'd say pretty much the same. "I simply resent that they never give back." How can you enjoy your life with or truly love someone who allows their children (including adult children) to never give back? And many bios unwittingly do this, with a blink of the eye, all under the guise of, "It's for the kid's sake." It's not.
No offense, but...
"If she can't make changes in her parenting/enabling and the time she needs to spend with her kids, it would probably be best that we go different directions.
I'm still considering conseuling as a last resort..."
You are in the exact same position and mind-set that you were last August. Nothing has changed. Quite frankly, your actions have not been reflective of a person who honestly knows they are in a bad relationship. Yet you insist on sitting on this endless, nightmarish merry-go-round?
Oh, and by the way, the kids are just ONE of the problems you have. You've also identified that you both have differences regarding finances, too. Why aren't you aware (yet) that you meet two of the biggest red flags for relationship failures: Kids and money.
Good luck to you if you insist on sticking it out in this doomsday scenario.
DITTO FREAKIN DITTO HERE!
Literally, with the exception of the dinners I have THE SAME BS going on.
When we got together she swore she had no kids at home. When I agreed to move to her town and in with her, her 21 yo kid was "staying there" for 3 weeks. No biggie. (2.5 weeks in she calls in tears and TELLS her mom she HAS TO STAY ANOTHER 5 MONTHS!" (I freaked and should have left then. Truly)
Before I moved in there was privacy at her home. Once there the kid HAD to enter the master bathroom ALL HOURS OF THE NIGHT to shower, pee, whatever because the other bath was used by boys. ( INTIMACY OVER)
Since she's been out every time she calls it's to act a baby or a smart ass, contribute nothing and take what she can.
I promise-it won't get better. Sadly. The pattern is way too strong and you just aren't as important. She'll play the momma bear card and that will be that. Every time.
I get it..
I understand what everyone is saying. Yes, two big red flags. Her kids/her enabling them and differences in views with money. To the other posters point, yes, some things have changed since August last year. Both her kids know I'm not paying for any meals for them any longer, period. There's also been conversations with both kids about them both being just takers and never receprocrating. I've called them both out for EXPECTING others to pay for their meals at their ages which was well received. My gal and I have had a couple conversations the past few days where she's admitting the problem. She's now asking for help from me instead of me just bitching at her about them. I think that's a big step. The daughters father has been deseased for 10 years so she's had to parent them without a Dad in their lives to put his foot up their behinds. She's admitting now that her kids have a lot of work to do and she's too soft on them.
At this point, I'm willing to invest more time to see if I can help her with those two knuckleheads before I give up on her. I do love her a lot and she brings lots of positives to my life. Again, the two big factors are differences in spending and her selfish kids. The only down side is the stress/aggravation with them and not finances. I'd NEVER co-mingle finaces with the women in my life again. EVER. Totally seperate finances. I'm also not even considering marriage in the next 5 years. If this in fact doesn't work, then the relationship is ended and we go different directions.
With all that said, does anyone have any positive, success stories in how couples navigated successfully through getting step kids on the right path?
My wife and I will celebrate
My wife and I will celebrate our 26th this year. My SS will be 28. We raised him together so our success story is a different situation to yours. It does sound that you have your head squarely in the game and your SO is gaining clarity.
Good luck.