When Close is to Close? - From an outside point of view

Forums:

I found this page by accident and Im hoping to receive some insight on this subject that has bothered me the entire time I've been with my husband.

My husband has a 9 year old almost 10 year old daughter. She is his world. I knew this going into the relationship and thought what an amazing father, he puts his daughter first, does everything he can to spend time with her and this is really great. Then, I moved in and realized that she and her father were still sleeping in the same bed. At this time she was 7.I wasn't really comfortable with sleeping with a child in general, but it made him happy and he felt like he had a family again, so I didn't say anything at the time. As time has gone on, I notice the closeness he and his daughter share. Which I do love! Don't get me wrong, but when is close TOO close? When is more damaging then doing her good?

I'm a parent of 2 boys (men now) I raised them on my own and at one time yes, they slept with me in the bed, but when they turned a certain age, they moved into their own rooms and that was that. I was always affectionate with my kids but I also had boundaries. My husband on the other hand has ZERO boundaries, especially with his daughter.

My family has referred to her as my sister wife. Let me explain why. When my husband and i got married, he bought us the same ring. One for me, and one for her. He told me he was marrying both of us. Ok, I can see what he meant, but this made me a little uneasy because what is that telling her. She was still sleeping in our bed up until 6 months ago (so she was sleepign in our bed for almost the entire time we've been togther), she changes her clothes in my closet, she talks with her dad about adult issues, he tells her all of our adult issues, including our relationship problems. He says its because he doesn't keep anything from her. He calls her when she is with her mom, every day, before work, at lunch, after work and before bed. He always asks her if she wants to come back to our house and see us, or if she needs him hell drop everything and get her. EVERYTIME. When she makes food she makes it for him and her only, when they cuddle in bed they are spooning eachother with legs wrapped around eachother and they hold hands everywhere. etc. So from my perspective I feel the odd man out but also, I feel like there is no definition of what I am to what she is in his life. We broke up for a month and he told me he realized that him and his daughter are one person. he drives by school every day to honk his horn so she knows he's there. he goes to see her even for 30 seconds, he attends field trips that he's not chaperoning on just to spend time with her. I try to tell him that she does need some space and he just gets upset at me. Basically making me feel like I'm just a jealous woman because of the attention he gives his daughter. I dont feel like that is it. I feel like he is establishing major co-depend issues on her and she for him. Now that she sleeps in her own bed, he still puts her to bed and goes to sleep with her until he wakes up in the middle of the night and comes back to our room. I came home last night from an out of town trip only to find him in her bed all night long and I got upset.

We dont go out of town just us, because he feels bad if she is not with us she we always stay in town. But this week he's on vacation and shes' with us so now he wants to go someplace. I dont know, am I just reading into something here?? I feel like I have no idea if I'm the one with the issue and just seeing things that aren't there or what? Any help or advice. I know this was all over the place, it's a lot to try and type LOL

This is damaging to all

This is damaging to all parties involved. My advise? Leave. You will only be the bad guy in this situation even if he puts boundaries on his daughter now (which that doesn't sound likely). You will get blamed for everything. And as someone who is in that situation a bit, its a long bumpy road and I wish I could turn around myself but there's no room to back up.

youre right. he wont ever put

youre right. he wont ever put boundaries on his daughter. he doens't even understand what that means to be honest. just yesterday he told me that I'm a very jealous woman of his daughter and the attention he gives her. But it's ok he understands it just means i love him.

Yes leave. "Just means you

Yes leave. "Just means you love him". That conversation had a whole lotta nope. IMHO he has a loose screw.

The relationship between your

The relationship between your husband and his daughter is VERY unhealthy. He is doing that poor child a huge disservice. It is NOT normal, it is not good for your relationship and it is especially harmful for the child. Children are not emotional crutches for their parents; children should not be used as confidantes and his daughter should not know details of your relationship. How does your husband expect this girl to ever have a normal, healthy relationship when she grows up if she's this enmeshed with him? I doubt you will ever be able to convince your husband that his behavior with his child is wrong - he will turn on you in a minute if you even suggest it. I personally would leave this situation. You will never be first with your husband. He doesn't need a wife - he already has his mini-wife. I just hope he gets help before he destroys his daughter.

this is my concern too. I

this is my concern too. I asked him one time, "what are you going to do when she wants to leave and go away to college?" he replied with "she wont, she will always need her daddy". I honestly was floored when he said this. Wouldn't you want your child to spread their wings and fly???

I know I will never convince him. He does not see it at all. he actually thinks there is NOTHING wrong with how he behaves with her. He thinks the closeness is OK. and thinks I'm nuts when I say anything. But I can see it clearly. He does not have a lot of self awareness. He told me that him and his daughter are "peers"..........*mind boggled*

I believe i know where this stems from. he has an older son who he doesn't know. BM took him away at a very young age and he has no relationship with him. His son doesn't even know him. So I think he tries to over compensate but doesn't understand or realize what he's really doing. he refuses to hear me on this subject.

She will always need daddy?

She will always need daddy? GGGAAAAAAGGGGG - I'm dead.

Peers?

Peers? Ewwwww. So is he looking forward to getting his period and wondering what it is like to kiss a boy? How is that training bra feeling on him? (Gagging over here)

Wait. What?

He told me he was marrying both of us.

His biological daughter?? That's very disturbing. It almost sounds like he married YOU so he could symbolically make his daughter his wife without anyone thinking it was creepy. But it IS creepy and their relationship is sick and twisted.

I would not have been able to marry the man, much less stay married to him. Hon, this is definintely TOO close.

If my FDH gave FSD a ring too

If my FDH gave FSD a ring too I would have said no and left. That line literally made me gag. I don't understand this sentiment at all and never will. I don't even understand the sentiment of asking children's permission. They are children - they don't need any power.

i also do not understand

i also do not understand asking for a Childs permission. when we argue or fight or he kicks me out of the house, he will tell me....I need to ask D what she thinks of this and get her opinion too. I have literally lost it because I yell back ti's non of her business. I keep fooling myself that she will get older and want her independence and he will realize she is too old for how he acts. but non is happening right now.

He kicks you out of the house

He kicks you out of the house? What kind of BS is that? You need to save yourself from this crazy man!!!

He kicks you out to discuss

He kicks you out to discuss marital discord with his child??? This is beyond disgusting. If my DH ever attempted to "kick me out" of my home, he would no longer be a husband. Neither of us would ever discuss our issues with our kids either. You really are in a sister wife relationship.

Where is BM in all of this? I think I would reach out and find out her thoughts on this entanglement he has with his daughter. I would be livid if my ex brought up issues in his marriage with my kids SM to my kids.

I know that some steps "marry

I know that some steps "marry" their spouse AND the skids. But to marry your own kid?? Highly disturbing.

yes this is his bio-daughter.

yes this is his bio-daughter. When he first told me this statement he worded it in a way like it was us becoming one family. So at the time, and stupid me, thought ok i get that.......but then he bought us the same ring.....and well, the issue was blown up but we were already married. ugh!!

My thoughts exactly too, and

My thoughts exactly too, and even your own family notices. "My family has referred to her as my sister wife. Let me explain why. When my husband and i got married, he bought us the same ring. One for me, and one for her." Sister wife, mini-wife, the same. Crickey! He even bought you the SAME ring! Pretty darn obvious. When everyone at your wedding saw this, is was probably all they could do to NOT toss their cookies.

Look. You are not alone in the sense that your DH tries to get away with total asinine BS and make you tow the line for his or his family issues under the guise that it is just you, and you are just jealous, etc. Heck, many try to use this perverted "rationale" with SMs--you're just jealous, etc., to try to justify keeping SM in the subservant role vs. as a true wife.

However, there really should be no confusion from you or any other SM over what your true role is. Your true role is as DH's wife. We all know what that role is, but unfortunately many like to mess with our minds because we carry the term SM vs. wife or dad's wife. You are to THE wife and your DH is to be THE husband. In any family circle or blended family, a wife is a wife, a husband is a husband, an ex- is an ex-, a child is a child, and so on. He is not only treating you and his child as one in the same, but he is even treating his child as his superior wife. Sister wives is correct, and his daughter has the senior spot.

P.S. I don't think it is even

P.S. I don't think it is even appropriate for SKs to exchange rings or get presents at wedding ceremonies. The kids already have a father and a mother, for one thing, and here is someone exchanging rings with them, who they may not even want around, telling them they take them to be their "new" family, etc., and "new" dad (and it usually is step-dads that do this). It makes what should be a wedding ceremony for two look more like a hillbilly wedding for 3 or 4, and one that includes children as well. Yuck!, is all i can say. If the kids in this type of ceremony grow up and expect to be treated like a wife or husband vs. child, who can blame them? After all, they did at least unofficially, albeit rather bastardly, get married to SM or step-dad too.

He wraps his legs around her body?

That makes it so his penis is touching her body. That's child abuse. If what you're saying is true and not embellising, it's extremely alarming.

I'm not embellishing, he is

I'm not embellishing, he is clothed, so his privates are not touching her, he's not even in PJ's....its when they are cuddling on the bed. I dont believe he has been inappropriate with her in that way at all, I'm watching like a hawk. Believe me, I would report it in a heartbeat.

It doesn't matter if he's

It doesn't matter if he's clothed, it's still abuse (by the standards of law) if his clothed crotch is pressed up against her.

Reading this again - I almost

Reading this again - I almost have this gut feeling of sexual abuse in some sort of form. Its just in the pit of my gut - I would call someone about this to be honest.

i have talked to her BM about

i have talked to her BM about it and have tried to get some insight on when they were together what it was like. I dont believe sexual abuse is happening at all. but i do know the co-dependency is not ok

I don't think

I don't think what they are saying is that he is a pedophile. I think it is more they are concerned that he is uable to separate his love for a daughter from his love for a wife and may be unintentionally "grooming" her for a future more complete relationship that fulfills a wifely role. In other words, he does not want to have sex with a child but that does not mean he will rule it out as she gets older. He for some reason just doesn't seem to get that she is his DAUGHTER and what boundaries go along with that role.

What you are describing is

What you are describing is "too close". Taken independently.. some of those things aren't totally out of line.. but you know your BS meter is going off and you KNOW.. without asking us that the way those two interact is not normal... not even a little bit normal.

1. Kids don't sleep in their parents' beds .... with the exception of some serious night terror issues.. or snuggling while reading the paper occasionally etc.. it isn't normal. I think it often happens in divorce when the parents are kind of reeling from the loss of their spouse and they cling to their child for mutual comfort.. but it isn't healthy... for either party. Honestly, if he was still sleeping with his child, I would not have married him.

2. The multiple communications.. are a bit much. My DH is in contact with his parents and kids.. sometimes a couple or 3 times a day.. but your DH's level is a bit excessive. This would probably be an area where I would not have a hill to die on though.. if he wants to communicate and text/brief calls a few times a day.. that isn't the end of the world totally.

3. Sharing adult relationship issues with his preteen daughter? NO.. seriously.. your relationship is with HIM period... things between you get worked out between you.. neither of you are supposed to take counsel with your kids.. parents.. etc.. She is a CHILD.. not an adult and this is actually quite unfair of him to burden her with worry about relationship instability. It also makes it harder for you and her to have a relationship because she is privy to things she shouldn't be.

4. driving by her school and honking? Is he a stalker? I mean.. dang DH... that is a creeper move there. The girl doesn't need to have you do that.. it's just weird... and as she gets older, it will be embarassing to her.

5. The rings. I actually think I understand his sentiment.. trying to tell her that even though he is marrying you.. that she is still special to him.. but the SAME ring? again.. putting her at the same level of relationship as a spouse is wrong. Certainly a nice locket or something would have been more appropriate.

I don't know what to tell you though.. this guy seems dead set on proceeding in this damaging way with his daughter... I'm not sure there is much you can do other than try to convince him to go to counseling where maybe a 3rd party can help him understand how he is hurting his child's future... and killing his marriage.

Thank you for your response.

Thank you for your response. I really do appreciate it. You are right. I do KNOW! I think I've lied to myself or told myself that it will change. But it hasn't and I don't see it ever changing unless something very serious happens. But i know it wont be because he has some sort of epiphany.

I have read a lot of children sleeping in the same bed as parents. Like I said before, my sons slept with me in my bed until they were 4 and 2 then they moved. but we also only had a one bedroom apartment since i was a single mother. then as they got older, i gave them the room and i took the couch until we could afford something bigger. i should have been more assertive on the sleeping arrangements early on, but thought i was over reacting. i have fooled myself quite a bit in this relationship and lost a lot of myself along the way. Maybe I just needed a venting board, i dont really talk about this much.

I have told him over and over and over again that our business is OURS!!! If my son asks me what is happening with my husband I might tell him we are arguing, it's ok..but my son is also 23 and has a much better understanding of life and relationships then a 9 year old who can't understand anything about it. I never talk to her about our problems and I keep the arguing away from her as well. She shouldn't know what she knows. He shouldn't be leaning on her for emotional support either, its very unfair to her and her development.

He doesn't understand what I mean when I say deflection, projection, boundaries etc. I explain it to him and he really seems lost on him. He asked me once, why would I want to set boundaries with my kid? *mind boggled*. I know that he will not change and he seems ok with killing this marriage. I'm not ok with this anymore honestly.

Why set boundaries?

1. To raise a mentally healthy and independant child.. capable of living and thriving in her life.

2. To not upset a child with stresses about adult issues and relationships that she is not mentally or maturity equipped to handle.

3. To not undermine the primary spousal relationship... That doesn't mean that the spouse comes first.. it is a different way of looking at it. The child is his responsibility.. his wife is his partner in life... and must be a priority to model a healthy adult relationship for his child to learn from.

4. To not confuse the child

i agree 150% with every

i agree 150% with every bullet point you have made. i've said all of this to him. it really gets lost on him what i'm talking about.

Its called Emotional Incest

Even if he isnt touching her physically in an adult way, he is abusing her emotionally. If you look up Emotional Incest, you will see your story written out several times over.

There are several things I would like to point out, and Im going to repeat myself:

1. That is SO FREAKING GROSS, the cuddling with her all night until she goes to sleep, legs wrapped around each other like lovers. Gross. This is going to be your life? Is this what you want?

2. he is triangulating her into your relationship. Including her in your relationship details and asking her opinions on everything that goes on between you two. This is very wrong. This is going to be your life? Is this what you want?

3. He is not married to you - he is married to his daughter, and you are the "side piece" he can legally have sexual relations with.This is going to be your life? Is this what you want?

4. Encouraging her to not leave, to always need dadee. This is going to be your life? Is this what you want?

5. He is gaslighting you to make you the bad guy, this will continue and escalate, it only gets worse with time and advancing into the teen years. This is going to be your life? Is this what you want?

What I am trying to say, is that it seems extremely obvious to me, but I am not living your life. Only you can do that. Time to ask yourself the hard questions, and really decide if this is the life you want. It will not get better, it will get worse as she gets older. Teens are difficult under the best of circumstances, but this is over the top bad. You dont want to be a third wheel in your marriage! You deserve to be the Queen! Write this down and put this on the fridge. Either take over your Queendome, or find another country where you can rule.

Man and I thought my SO was bad..

This is a serious case of codependency. Really really serious. I don't know if you've tried to make comments here and there about how this behavior is inappropriate but it could definitely help. I had many talked about this kind of behavior with my SO until things changed. Random comments here and there with some longer talks in between. I made it very clear that this was not jealousy or dislike for him loving her. I mainly talked about how this behavior hurts her in the long run, rather than how it makes me feel, and focusing on that because that made the biggest impact.

Your SO needs to realize that he has serious issues with codepency and how it will ruin his daughter. Maybe show him some articles to read. If all else fails, I would leave.

thank you for your response.

thank you for your response. yes i have made numerous comments here and there and he doesn't really get it. i have talked with him from the perspective of the damage it could do to her and he still doesn't really understand. all he sees is that he's showing his daughter how loved she is and that she is his number 1 always and forever.

I read this and feel like I

I read this and feel like I need to take a shower. This is disgusting and very disturbing. He is harbouring an extremely inappropriate relationship with his daughter.

'll never forget when my sister and I were teens and we were travelling and stayed in a hotel with my dad. My dad said something about how it would be inappropriate for him to share a bed with us. I never thought about it like that before, but he was right. Even just to sleep in. He worked as a corrections officer, so I'm sure he's heard it all, but it's something that I'll always remember.

I would do a "cute" little video of something, and get them in it (cuddling in bed all enmeshed like you say) and post it to Facebook. Something innocent like asking people what colour you should paint your bedroom walls. Let's see if he's ok with that. He should be if he finds nothing wrong with it. If he says something to you about taking the video down, then even he knows what he's doing is not right.

But honestly, it sounds like a gross sister wife / incestual relationship and I honeslty couldn't be a part of it. *bad* I hope you have an exit plan.

i completley understand what

i completley understand what youre saying. i'm actually not on facebook. i know that's nuts, but i'm not. but i do get what your point is. i have a very good understanidng about incesutal relatioships which is why i feel the way i do. i do not believe it's physical but someone pointed out emotional and yes, i believe it's that more so than anything.

Well, good for you I wish I

Well, good for you I wish I never had it. lol. I don't think it sounds physical either, but he's setting her up for disaster. She needs to understand proper boundaries and he's not really giving her guidance in that department. He needs to stop treating her as your equal and start treating her as a child. She's not his wife and he shouldn't be discussing adult issues, ESPECIALLY your relationship. That would be it for me. As for kicking you out of your own home? I would leave and never return. You need to get your own self worth and realize what you will and won't put up with and make it VERY clear to "D"H what those boundaries are. I wish you all the best.

This is disturbing, to close

This is disturbing, to close for words. I'm at my desk speechless and I truly feel for you.......this right here is crossing so many lines that I can't even begin to comprehend.

My question to you......what will you do about it?

im in the process of seaking

im in the process of seaking thearpy. i know what i have to do, but as one said earlier, i have been fooled into believing he loves me.....he has given me many pieces that i never received and i beleive i stay because of those reasons but i know i have to go. it's not healthy for me on many levels. i find myself stuck......that's my biggest issue with myself is how to unstuck myself. i've never experienced this type of relationship before, both good and bad. i was already healing from my previous relationship and i fell hard in this one.

Ok OP...I actually got chills

Ok OP...I actually got chills when I read this. My mouth dropped open. This is one of the most disturbing things I've read on this site. All of it is wrong wrong WRONG.

You are not at fault here. If he told ANYONE that he does the things you said, they would be floored. Any normal person can see this is not healthy. He's marrying her? Spoons and wraps his legs around hers and holds hands? Drives past her school? Talks about your issues with her?? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. 1,000 times No.

He won't listen to you, he obviously has no desire to change his behavior...and honestly, he doesn't want or need a real wife because he has her. I don't think you have a choice but to leave, because no one could tolerate this.

This child is going to be so

This child is going to be so messed up with a father like this. Honestly, I don't believe that I have ever read on ST of such a bad case of being a mini-wife. Save yourself. Please. GO.

And once you're gone, get into therapy to see why you couldn't see how bad this was such a long time back, or if you did, why you ignored the warning signs so you don't do it again. Good luck.

Child abuse

I skipped reading the responses after reading your post, so there are likely a lot of better worded comments.

Off the top of my head, this reeks of child abuse, emotional grooming --- I don't know the correct words. I am sorry that you have become aware of this swarmy weirdness.

My cautionary advice is to be aware of your acceptance of this abusive dysfunction. CPS at your door? Just be aware of the consequences of silently condoning behavior that your gut & common sense know is "off."

ETA: If you were my friend, IRL, I'd likely be suggesting that you speak with CPS ... for the youngster's sake. Then helping you find a good therapist to help you understand how you got sucked down this rabbit hole.

Just NO

I really have nothing more to add except to agree with everyone else on this. It's wrong. It's just too much. Taken seperately, each instance is not that bad, but taken as a whole, it's too much to rationalize. I have a feeling this marriage is only going to bring you heartache. Good luck.

I wonder how he's going to

I wonder how he's going to treat this sister-daughter wife when she hits puberty? He is already enmeshed and it sounds like he is grooming her for an insestual relationship. Men like this always make me wonder what really happened in the first marriage. Yes this is sick on many levels, gross and TOO CLOSE. You'll never be able to change it.

When he was marrying you,

he needed to already before then define your status as his wife. He doesn’t ever buy a ring yet alone the same one as you and claim he is marrying both of you..

there is no respect for you because he has never demanded it. He’s taught his daughter she is the same level as you so she can do what she wants. Its almost like a polygamist marriage except no sex with her.

so when its her birthday are they going on weekend getaways together like a couple would do for their wedding anniversary or birthday? The answer should be of course not!!

from what it sounds this man will never change and he’s guilting you for being normal and thinking like the rest of us

the sleeping together is just disgusting. My skids are sd22, ss20 and sd14. I don’t care if they were having a rough dad and tried to demand sleeping in same room with us hubby wouldn’t allow it. If she pushed further and hubby went to sleep in a spare room with them i’d make him march his arse upstairs or i’d be out the friggin door even if it were 3am tears and all....

I also agree with others that the parent doesn’t

Require their kids permission to remarry. They meet someone they care about, the relationship progresses and they tell the kids they’ve decided to marry. If kids don’t like it, then tough shit because i guarantee you if the parent needs kids permission to marry, when daddy rejects their future son/dil, their child isn’t gonna drop them..

Wow, I could not be in a

Wow, I could not be in a relationship like this. Not knowning the person, my head goes to very ugly thoughts. Growing up I was a daddy's baby, being I was the only girl. He tucked me in every night, I worship the ground the man walks on. Never did he spoon me, never did he sleep in my bed, never did he drive by my school and honk. That is just not normal at all. It is creepy.

I will also say that parents come before the children, whether step or bio. I would have a real problem with ANYONE speaking about my adult relationship with any child, period. It is none of their business, nor should it be. My two bio kids or grown, 24 and 19. Still I would not talk to them about my marriage, not personnal problems that we may have. It would be disrespectful to my husband to do so. Doing so may even cause them to develop hard feelings toward him, and that would be unfair.

You are also in a position where IF he changes and puts you first, then you will reap the wrath of his daughter. It will be your fault, you will lose either way.

This post is very disturbing.

This post is very disturbing. This is a textbook case of enmeshment, and the worst part is not, for me, the spooning in bed (though that's gross), it's that your DH told you that "he and SD are one person". He is using her to meet his emotional needs, with zero thought for her needs or her development. He has no intention of allowing her to develop her own sense of self, because it makes him feel soooo good that she "needs her daddy". It's emotionally abusive to SD, but yet, he does it anyway.

It's horrifying, and it would be a deal breaker for me.

Save yourself and shove that duplicate ring to his daughter’s up his ass as you leave.

Please.

You are here

When Close is to Close? - From an outside point of view