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Groundhog Day

Admin's picture

I thought I'd take a moment to address the rumor mill, and remind users that your continued interaction with this site conveys your acceptance of our terms and conditions of use (TOU). If you neglected to pay attention to them while signing up or otherwise missed them, feel free to become re-acquainted with them here: https://www.steptalk.org/terms . The terms of use are there to define the boundaries users are expected to stay within when they interact with this site and its users. When it comes down to it, we expect our users to behave in a decent manner or to not interact at all.

This topic seems to come up every year or two, and we end up doing and saying the same thing. We understand that the current site lacks good moderation controls and honestly we do not have the resources to address every incident on the site because of this. We are hoping that with the launch of the new site, and the implementation of new moderation and privacy controls shortly afterwards, this task will be easier and will eventually allow users to self-moderate.

So now to the facts. Today Dawn spent most of the day reviewing the long list of complaints we receive via email, PM, and the flag system. In every case, she reviewed the evidence that was presented, and made a simple decision. If the evidence showed that a user was harassing, berating, threatening, libelous, obscene, or in any other way bullying toward a user (or otherwise violating the TOU), they were added to a block list. We never take blocking users lightly and have historically given most users leniency when enforcing these terms, but at some point they must be enforced in order to maintain order on the site and ensure that the site remains a place where everyday people can come to get support for their situations.

If a user was blocked, it was because they in some way violated our TOU, typically on multiple occasions. It's as simple as that. In general users get at least one warning, but depending on the infraction a user may not get a warning at all.

Users do *not* get blocked because we disagree with their views, or they had the most flags against them (although multiple flags or other notices does tend to get you looked at first). We do *not* block users simply because another user has requested it. We do *not* take into account the length of time a user has contributed to this site; this isn't a balancing game. Its unfortunate that we have to block users who have a history of providing good advice to our users, but being a regular contributor to this site does not constitute a right to behave outside the TOU.

The list of abusive users is extremely long and we have not yet reviewed it in it's entirety. We are aware that not all users who have abused the ST TOU have been blocked, yet. Feel free to continue to report those individuals by providing links to *evidence* of the actual abuse. Note, however, that deliberate and blatant mis-reporting of users will get you blocked so make sure your report is sincere.

It comes down to this. StepTalk is a place that people come to vent about their *unique* situation. Often they don't provide all the details, or change the details for privacy reasons, or reasons only they understand. Sometimes they want support. Sometimes they want feedback. Sometimes they want a reality check. What they don't want and should not expect is to be attacked, for any reason. If a user does not agree with another user, does not believe a blog or forum post to be sincere or truthful, or in any other way feels that they can not provide constructive support or feedback, then that user is expected to move on and not interact with that other user.

This does *not* mean that you can't disagree with someone. This does *not* mean you can't tell someone you don't agree with them. This has everything to do with *how* you communicate your feedback. It is always possible to provide constructive feedback to someone you don't agree with even if you are telling them you don't agree with them or that you have a completely orthogonal view of their situation. Surely you can do this without using derogatory or hateful statements. If you feel that you can't, walk away.

I'm going to leave this open for comments in case anyone wants to continue this discussion. I can't promise quick replies because I have a day job and I'm busy building our new site, but I will attempt to respond as I can.

-Admin

Comments

notsurehowtodeal's picture

"We do *not* take into account the length of time a user has contributed to this site; this isn't a balancing game." Why isn't it a balancing game? This is what bothers me. If I'm understanding this correctly, a long-time, helpful user can be banned for violating the TOU one time. Everyone can have a bad day and violate the TOU.

If you would consider granting leniency to some on the list, I know I am not the only one who would be grateful.

Gunner's picture

Why shouldn't it be a balancing act? There was a long term poster who was down right nasty to me referring to my genitals multiple times. I came here for advice not to be attacked. After my last post I left this site with no intention of coming back but i needed a date and came here to look through my blogs. Seeing some of the people banned makes me feel more comfortable to post again. That's why. They chase off people who need advice.

ldvilen's picture

I agree, Gunner, that was totally unacceptable. I do think sometimes (certainly not all the time or even close to most of the time) men on this site can be more-so unfairly targeted.

bearcub25's picture

They were absolutely cruel to you Gunner. A few of them attacked new posters until the new poster took up for themselves, or just left feeling like they were the evil SM. They were just too comfortable in their own perceived 'power' and felt they were untouchable bc they spent their every breathing moment on this site.
A few on that list (StepAside, Seue), while they can be very blunt, actually knew what they were talking about and gave good advice, it just stung a little when first reading.

While I don't post much, I have been a member for many years and through the mess of being a full time SM. This was the absolute best forum 6-8 years ago and it is sad what it turned into.

JustAgirl42's picture

Actually, one of the reasons I stopped blogging was because sueU2 would always harass me and I didn't want to deal with her anymore. Never had a problem with any of the others...

agitated's picture

I am another user who deleted my account a few months ago and just recently signed back up (last week) in hopes of being able to ask simple questions again. I have a very ODD story, that is hard to believe, but I could provide the proof (court papers/transcripts/etc.) if needed, but that wouldn't keep me anonymous anymore, nor should I have to do that. I stopped blogging about "those" issues and would only post when I really needed an outsiders advice, but was STILL beat down.

I was (and still am) afraid to ask ANYTHING. There are a few people who give good advice, but constantly being told, "Why are you doing that it's his problem; it sounds like you are obsessed stop "stalking"; it's not your problem; he is lazy and you should leave him; you aren't passing my "smell" test; etc. This is NOT constructive criticism IMO. A person tends to get frustrated. The way I choose to interact and my involvement with my bio kids and skid are my business. If I'm asking what I should do in an XYZ situation, I shouldn't be made to feel like I'm doing something wrong for being involved. To offer disengagement as a solution, great; to politely say maybe you are caring too much, let dad handle it, great. I have come here for advice and an outlet, not to be berated about my situation. I have posted before about my skid doing XYZ, and been torn to pieces about something entirely off topic to my question. This is how most of my posts were replied to.

AshMar654's picture

I have a question. I know some people that you have blocked have been really mean and I do believe love to tear others down to make themselves feel better. This is just my opinion, some of those you blocked may have not been the nicest but some you did were truly helpful. For example RosaluOsliar she was tough and very direct with me but I never thought her comments to be hurtful and extremely negative. I did like her advice a lot.

I am curious those you have blocked is there anyway they can be allowed back but the warned that if they continue their bad behavior will be permanently blocked from this site? Maybe a warning will do wonders for these people and maybe it will not but some that you did block I really appreciated what they had to say.

fairyo's picture

This makes me sad- I received invaluable advice from some of these Steppers especially Echo and GrannyGoose. I hope they come back in another guise. Posts on social media can often be misinterpreted and although people shouldn't feel uncomfortable, it does sell itself as a venting site. People say things they shouldn't when they vent- which is the point isn't it?
Are we saying that any post is ok- but the responses are not?
We are all grown-ups- I feel I could deal with anything thrown at me- a few negative or even personal comments are not going to put me off, but the harsh truth told with wit and experience has certainly helped me in a way no other site has.
I hope things get back to 'normal' soon.

Willow2010's picture

I don’t know if all of them have been blocked but I do see the reason why some of them would be blocked. Some had good advice and helped but IMHO, they ran off WAY more posters than they helped. Some of the vitriol and hatefulness in their “helpful” post were uncalled for. There is no reason to make someone feel small and stupid when trying to help them.

Now a few of the names on the list, I cannot for the life of me figure out why they would have been banded.

Hopefully the new site will have a function that a user can block certain people from posting on their blogs. That would stop a lot of the nastiness.

ldvilen's picture

I know one thing that bothered me more than vitriol language was when there be over 10 comments going back and forth about something completely OT and inane, such as "I drank tequila today," "Oh, really, what kind?," "It was banana flavored," "I'm getting out my whiskey shots," "Me too. Let's toast together." Something like that. Sometimes the string would be over 20+ long, which to me is a total killer. The entire OP and any comments following, are in the tank after that. No one is going to want to weed though that nonsense, and in some cases, they were excellent OPs and had good comments, and then some utterly ridiculous banter ruins it all. Hopefully, that was looked at too.

Tuff Noogies's picture

"When it comes down to it, we expect our users to behave in a decent manner or to not interact at all." i do agree with this. i don't agree with flat-out banning, hopefully the potential blocking feature on the long-in-coming site will reduce some of the bad feelings between some posters. i'll keep the rest of my opinions to myself on that matter.

if anyone banned is still reading - miss ya'll.

Willow2010's picture

Oh I would almost guarantee they are reading and will be back under a new name within days. (if not today) Lol.

A few of those up there were on their 2nd or 3rd name anyway.

secret's picture

Agree with Willow2010 above.

Though some of those posters had great advice, some could not get that advice across without calling someone stupid, making fun of them, or just writing some really purposefully insulting comments and/or getting on the insult train with others.

There's a big difference between offering up advice that might not be pleasant to hear, and telling someone they're too stupid to see the red flags in front of their face. Berating someone for the choices they've made that have landed them here to begin with, and then calling that same poster a crybaby when they're upset at the belligerence thrown their way is never a welcoming atmosphere...it has run off several new members, and continues to be un-helpful to older members who might have to learn from their mistakes despite warnings offered.

Some I'm sad to see go - but some I'm grateful. I'm not a fan of being called names, insulted for no other reason but to be made fun of or get a reaction, called a liar, told my advice sucks or shouldn't be looked at because I posted about a completely unrelated situation weeks ago.... none of that is necessary, helpful, constructive, or even just...decent.

I understand that some people have a poor dynamic between them, some people will just ignore each other and their posts just because... and that's fine... the block feature will be great, but it will really separates those who are genuinely trying to provide a different perspective, advice, feedback, and those who are really just here to commiserate with their "friends" by providing that literal division between the "groups".

Anyway - thank you for taking the time to hear user grievances.

DaizyDuke's picture

A good majority will be back with new user names. It's the cycle of stalk.

I'll be honest, I know that sometimes I can be a bit direct? blunt? and definitely quite sarcastic, but there is a difference in being direct and being a downright jerk. I'm actually surprised SueU2 got booted as I have NEVER witnessed her being rude, name calling, fighting etc. but I guess it could have happened. Impossible for any one of us, to see every single comment that has ever been made.

There are a couple however, who I'm glad are gone. they said some pretty awful things to me in a stupid O/T political post because I dared say I voted for Donald Trump. And I do mean awful things. I RARELY flag or report anyone, but that day I do remember reporting a particular poster. But that was at least 6 months ago and nothing was done until now. Like Gimlet said, it tends to make flagging and reporting less meaningful.

Oh well, I understand the admins here do have busy lives like the rest of us and don't have time to be babysitting grown ass adults 24/7. If people would just follow the rules and be decent human beings, we wouldn't have to go through these cycles.

ESMOD's picture

Ya know, it occurred to me that we have a pretty big double standard going on here.

This site is founded as a venting/advice site about being a step parent. So, it's ok for people to come on here and call the BM's, SK's etc.. trash, ho's, monsters, cretins, pond scum etc. Bash away at people who are not necessarily members of this site. Hate on...

BUT, if someone calls out a poster on a bad attitude or poor actions, then that person is somehow in violation. TBH, while I am a SM, I see a few posters on here that seem completely tone deaf to their part in the problems they seem to have. They see everyone else as the problem when it's clear that they have created a lot of it and that their denial hurts them.

Then there are people that seem to have no empathy for anyone other than themselves and others who are pot kettle black situations when they claim others are trying to control things when in fact they are doing the ever loving same dang thing.

It's also tough because online you don't see facial expressions. You don't have all the facts and back story. Certainly I have said things that on paper might have come across harsher to someone than I intended. I certainly wouldn't want to be cruel, but I see some awfully cruel attitudes from people towards their skids that in truth might not be 100% well directed.

In any case, it is a double standard of sorts when the tone is set with the bashing of people off-site.. for on site posts to have some too.

Disneyfan's picture

ESMOD, I pointed this out on a blog the other day.The poster's SO is the male version of the MOTY types that are posted about and bashed here day in and day out. No one bats an eye at that.

But the pearl clutching begins when the same types of comments are directed at the SOs

Wifeypoo's picture

I struggle myself with being a very sensitive person and my feelings are deeply hurt easily, perhaps even more than the average person. In a nutshell I know my over sensitivity originates from my childhood and is deeply ingrained. Not a excuse, just how it is. No amount of counseling has ever helped much but surprisingly, being on steptalk, has helped a lot. I don't post a lot but there's been a few times I've been told something that may have stung at the moment, but after some introspection, I come around and see what I may not have been able to see on my own. Now if someone was calling me names I'd probably just leave and not come back, so I do feel bad when that happens to someone else. I know it's just a internet forum but it's a very special one, she and I really appreciate its existence.

I missed the whole thing yesterday so I don't know what was said, but it appears it was the straw that broke the camels back for admin to take the measures of banning users. I have to respect their decision but it's still unsettling. Certain posters just grew on me after awhile.

Perhaps for the long time members hearing the same story over and over got a little old, and they lost their patience, which may explain some of the negative attitude toward certain posters. Sometimes there were insults thrown around unnecessarily and I've often cringed during those times and hoped the OP wouldnt be too hurt. I admire the ones who keep coming back in spite of the harsher comments.

I'm not sure what actually went down but I just hate to think that it may have been a troll post looking to ruffle feathers that started this whole thing.

NoWireCoatHangarsEVER's picture

Most of my fav people .... gone. Sob. At least Acra, Babybugged, and Gimlet are still here

moeilijk's picture

I think there's a huge piece of the pie that's not being addressed here.

We self-moderate. It's not always popular, but everyone who has received a comment that they felt was inappropriate or which crossed a line had the option to delete it. If it was offensive, screenshot and PM admin.

But all these banter-chains (which, for some reason, I am *never* invited to...) could be deleted if the OP had a beef with it.

All of the comments that are just re-hashing, "Your SO sucks!" could be deleted.

Some posters like the drama of it all, and to them I say, "To each his own." But for the rest of us, if you don't like how someone manages their blogs, scroll on by.

Admin is not around much, and even if they were, I still think they should be dealing with crazy out of line situations, not banter gone too far, or a line in the sand that was drawn too deeply. And I personally have read most comments by most of the banned posters over the last seven years. Absolutely some comments were not useful, kind, or even ok. But that's life. Only a very very few people have been absolutely horrid, and they clutter up and derail blog whenever they get on STalk. Nothing like the numbers that have disappeared.

And for each individual poster, take some responsibility. If you don't like the way something is going, manage it. That's a life lesson as well, btw.

secret's picture

One of the issues Moe, is that if you start deleting comments like that... you get the posters coming back and adding them again... then making a big deal that their comments were deleted.

I've deleted comments on my blogs that I felt were attacking someone's character - be it mine or my SO's...even another poster... and then have been accused of deleting responses from posters that disagree with me.

so... it comes of a place of personal experience, for me. Deleting the comments gets me targeted as someone who just wants sunshine and agreement... when the reality is, the comments I've deleted are so obnoxiously berating and unnecessarily hurtful, that the deletion has nothing to do with whether or not we've disagreed... or... has to do with the same poster having written 3 or 4 comments on the blog's post saying basically the same thing - usually that I'm stupid.

I don't tend to delete comments that offer a different perspective, disagree with me, etc..... but I will generally delete comments that I feel are uncalled for, like calling me me an idiot because of choices I've made. While I don't generally report stuff... some things are just unacceptable.

moeilijk's picture

IMHO, you personally leave a lot of things on your blog that I would probably delete. OTOH, I usually (now, lol!) announce that I delete comments that don't fit what I'm looking for.

I agree that it can keep you busy, checking every 30 minutes for what may have exploded while you were doing something else, but this is why I am an avid moderator: http://ideas.ted.com/want-to-help-prevent-online-bullying-comment-on-fac...

Bullying and all kinds of outrageous behaviour finds a home online because people feel anonymous. I know a lot of major sites that invite vigourous discourse have chosen to require people to provide an identity before posting as a way of moderating the comments. This site is, of course, intended to be anonymous so another mechanism is needed.

In my experience the only thing that has improved on this site in the last seven years is that now you no longer get pages and pages of comments, you just get one long page you can scroll through following each blog. If there is no active moderator, no way to block individuals posting to your blog, no way to hide certain posters, then there is a huge onus on the individual poster to do the dirty work.

If someone is so unable to control themselves that they cannot communicate without using profanity, berating someone, or going out of their way to be a total jerk, and has the sheer effrontery to complain about their vitriol being deleted? The delete key was made for that commenter.

secret's picture

Yes, recently I haven't deleted much, you're correct. I did delete all my other blogs though, in June....and honestly, if I hadn't seen one of Dawn's posts on someone's blog about types of comments and the need for them, I likely would have deleted all that garbage as well... but I figured I'd just leave it all there, for review.

AshMar654's picture

I have to agree with secret on the delete. I tried it one time as to keep my one blog on track and I got called out. That person even said I can keep deleting their posts but they will just keep posting. I deleted the whole blog as it got really mean and nasty.

The delete is great if people do not keep posting over and over and over. Aniki is right the block button will be a great addition. Mine had nothing to do with I did not want to hear what they had to say just it really was not relevant to what I was asking about.

secret's picture

Yeah.... I remember one poster in particular (one of the recently banned ones) made a comment on one of my responses on someone else's blog asking about parenting, that she wouldn't suggest taking parenting advice from someone who gave a oral on the first date and moved her bf in within days of hooking up.

(which is NOT what happened, but that's all anyone remembers, because this poster made SUCH a big deal about it...and now THAT story is stuck on me like bad breath instead of the truth.)

moeilijk's picture

I tend not to blog much myself, so I wouldn't be as bothered as you guys about that kind of behaviour. I agree it is out of line and makes posting more trouble than it's worth.

Livingoutloud's picture

never mind. I was just enlightened. I can't keep up with who is who and who says what.

moeilijk's picture

secret, I didn't mean that you leave info/blogs up... I meant that you let people get away with behaviour I find overbearing.

But you're more logical than I am, so I think you stay curious longer. Me, when I blog, I'm usually emotional and I feel attacked when people can't be bothered to stay at least polite. I know it's been too bad when someone invests some energy in a comment and I find it overwhelming - maybe I'm wrong to delete as much as I do. I don't know. I just do what is right for me, in the moment.

Willow2010's picture

If someone is so unable to control themselves that they cannot communicate without using profanity, berating someone, or going out of their way to be a total jerk, and has the sheer effrontery to complain about their vitriol being deleted? The delete key was made for that commenter.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So was the block key that admin used to block the abusive users.

moeilijk's picture

Sure. My point was that the poster of each blog also had that ability. And I think that in many cases, the OP deleting like it's going out of style is not just faster, but more useful than waiting months or longer for admin to wade in with a tank.

JustAgirl42's picture

Yes!!!

WalkOnBy's picture

When I am being an idiot, which happens from time to time, I expect my friends to call me an idiot, and I would have no problem with someone I don't know telling me I am an idiot...

Two reasons - first, it's a random person on the internet so who really cares; and second, what if I AM being an idiot??

secret's picture

Yes - friends. I expect my friends to tell me I'm an idiot...but they don't. With friends, there's a dynamic where we've established the boundaries of interpersonal communication between ourselves.... I don't have that with you, nor would I dare call you an idiot even if we did. I don't know you. Even if I did - I still wouldn't call you an idiot, because I don't tend to use name calling as a communication tool.

Not cool being called an idiot by some stranger when I'm looking to for words of encouragement, advice, support, though...

as to who really cares whether some random internet person calls another an idiot.... given recent events, I'd say the admins do. They should. It's abusive.

WalkOnBy's picture

so, because your friends don't tell you you're an idiot, you're never an idiot? Okay then...

I think part of the problem you had/have is that you want people to only say positive things. Not everyone is going to share your view of your relationship. Don't want people judging you? Don't put questionable things out there.

As Echo says, "don't want may peaches, don't shake my tree."

As for your last comment, I was clearly not referring to Admins or mods of a site. If the opinions of random strangers hurt a person's feelings, the internet might not be for that person.

IMHO, of course.

secret's picture

That's not what I said...

I might be acting like an idiot... but resorting to name calling isn't helpful, it's abusive. If you've been saying it to your loved ones and they've been saying it to you...technically yes...it's still abuse.

Often though with friends it's the intent... shaking your head at someone you love and calling them an idiot is not perceived the same as having someone angry at you and calling you idiot.

Regardless... it's still abuse. Not tolerated in schools... workplaces... I don't see why it should be tolerated here. Clearly, it's not.

robin333's picture

Then I have been abusing my DD, DH and close friends for years. I tell them when they're being idiots. Everyone has been an idiot more than once in their life.

ESMOD's picture

I told my YSD that when her dad calls her an idiot.. it's from a place of love. That if he didn't care about her.. he would just ignore her and let her make huge mistakes with her life.

thisisnotmocking's picture

Well, I just called my very own, squirted him out of my vag, an idiot. He's almost 30 so I don't think he'll whine to anybody.

Hope that makes you feel better.

I don't feel abusive at aĺl. He didn't take it that way either.

thisisnotmocking's picture

Well, I just called my very own, squirted him out of my vag, an idiot. He's almost 30 so I don't think he'll whine to anybody.

Hope that makes you feel better.

I don't feel abusive at aĺl. He didn't take it that way either.

Disneyfan's picture

Why do you (general you)give a bunch strangers so much power???

How in the world do you handle real life if you are so bothered by comments on a message board?

Do you have any idea how many times I've been called a B@#$% here? Not once did the word abusive cross my mind.

Disneyfan's picture

Oh please

Words from strangers on a message boards do not hurt me. My opinion changes when it involves people in my inner circle.

I don't understsnd how some people manage to cope in real life if they are hurt by comments strangers make.

Disneyfan's picture

I draw the line at race. Trying made a comment about my students a couple of weeks ago and that pissed me off.

Other than that, I am not offended by comments directed at me by strangers on a message board

I never called anyone here pathetic

WalkOnBy's picture

I get called a b*tch all the time. Sometimes it's true, which I am totally fine with, and other times it's not. I don't care. At all.

I don't find it verbally abusive if some random stranger who doesn't know me doesn't share my opinion and then calls me a bitch. Nope. Not even a little bit.

Life is hard. Sometimes a helmet is necessary.

*shrugs*

BSgoinon's picture

Ok, I must have missed something... seriously? That really sucks. That list, those ladies, have given some of the best advice this site has ever seen. And I have been her a LONG time.

AlreadyGone's picture

I think it's entirely possible that some posters, (and I'm not calling out ANYONE specifically when I say this) have just been here, either too long or too frequently. Maybe they're having a bad day or a serious situation at home.... whatever. Maybe they're burned out. Maybe they've read so much about so many people's situations, that they've lost the ability to see things with objectivity. Maybe they're giving advice based on something they've been through but, it's just a slight version of what's actually being presented. Who knows for sure.

I never did like the gang up style that I saw here at times. I never understood the 'we are right and you are wrong, end of story' scenarios that cropped up from time to time. The straight up disrespect based on opinion alone, always bothered me. As did the vulgar name calling, when it occurred. Calling out posters based on bad grammar or punctuation, and then watching the pile on, was difficult. Calling new posters trolls, even if they really weren't (yes, I'm aware that some were, lol.)

Having said all of the above, I'm pretty sure that most of us, are guilty of committing one (or more) of these things. Unfortunately, some, seemed to make it their mission statement. I think that's when it becomes a problem for everyone. It prevents the site from being what it was always meant to be.... supportive.

JMHO.

Willow2010's picture

sometimes being supportive is NOT telling someone what they want to hear, though
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

But I honestly do not think that is what some of these women are talking about. They are talking about someone derailing their post and trying to make them feel stupid and small and ignorant.

And yes…it is a forum so they may need to expect that from some posters. But those same posters that treat other people like scum on the bottomed of their shoe should also expect to get blocked by admin. They have all been warned and know it can happen.

WalkOnBy's picture

actually, most of those banned yesterday did not get any warning.

Someone derailing a post is not what I was talking about...

AlreadyGone's picture

I understand what you're saying. Think of it like this for a moment....

New SM or SF. Your beautiful step-illusion is blowing up in your face. Maybe you're on the lonely end of a losing situation. You find a place (ST) where you can try to make sense out of things, only to be insulted, talked down to, blamed, etc... That was/is a fact for some posters. Many on a continual basis. I keep hearing that posters should just delete posts they find offensive. Maybe the better approach should be that replying posters don't weigh in, unless they have something meaningful to contribute. Or, how about being a member who is belittled and/or attacked, for your personal, political, or other beliefs, etc.? Not cool.

I'm sorry, I don't want to make someone who is struggling, feel worse than they already do. To me, that's just heaping up damage upon damage. Not fair.

Sad to say that some people use the anonymity of online sites to be cruel, disrespectful, disparaging, disruptive, etc. We've all seen it. We figure someone is having a bad day, whatever. Still doesn't make it right.

That's just my POV. I do understand yours as well. Smile

moeilijk's picture

It's a microcosm for society here. Online, it's always more exposed. There are lovely people here, kind and caring and trying to help. There are unpleasant people who sprinkle offense and personal jibes around like a garden hose.

Of course people should delete posts they find offensive. Why should I 'keep' something that hurts or angers me?

And of course people should not make offensive posts. But I can't control what others do.

Just as in real life, in our online 'relationships' intent counts for a lot. But with just the written word, without robust objective information about a situation, I think a lot of communication turns into ships in the night.

Tone of voice, facial expression, backstory, personal qualities and character, goals, values.... I don't get much of that from a comment or post. And we never know the intentions of the poster - are they trying to cause trouble, are they dumping their negative experience of life on the world at large, have they chosen the wrong word by mistake, are they not ready to hear contrary advice or information, are they nasty people or ordinary people in a bad situation and not rising to the occasion, are they momentarily very upset or is this how they go through life?

All I can do is be myself. Sometimes that's annoying, I know (gasp). But I really have to rely on other people taking responsibility for themselves to let me know if they have a problem with me, and if we care enough to move forward together, we can talk about why and what we can do to make it better.

Willow2010's picture

I don't know why this time would be any different than any other time a mass ban has happened.

I have been here a long long time. (Like you) I know of at least 4 people on the list that have been banned before TWICE. One other has been banned once before. That is just the ones I know of. I guess that is why I am not as upset as a lot of yall. I figure they will all be back soon.

WalkOnBy's picture

it's different this time...in the past, folks were banned for (mostly) solid reasons. yesterday, not so much.

Willow2010's picture

in the past, folks were banned for (mostly) solid reasons
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I remember that differently. But I am shutting up. I don't wanna get banned. LOL.

notasm3's picture

A couple of people on the banned list were totally obnoxious and told me (by name that I was a horrible worthless person (mostly because I did not have children) on multiple occasions. I never flagged them as I figured out that anyone with a sane mind knew that they were total aholes.

I just ignored them. I refuse to get in "pissing contests" with stupid aholes. I generally avoided getting in internet arguments with people on any level. I know who I am and what my intellectual assets are - not going to argue with idiots. I love the phrase “Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.”

moeilijk's picture

I do too. I wish I knew you when I was growing up. And so I'm glad to get the chance to 'watch' you in action now. I like how you set and enforce clear boundaries, that you're very kind and caring but you guard your heart carefully, and how you worked hard in life to reach your goals.

FieryEscape's picture

Some of those kicked do not surprise me one itty bitty little bit. The " mean girl " herd mentally had gotten thick as of late. I've been on this board for about 5 years ( I deleted accounts by choice to avoid too much being out there about my life ) now and seen plenty of catty behavior and mass purges.

You don't have to be a nasty B when you don't agree with someone and you can give your side/ point of view / wisdom without tearing someone apart. No one needs to be told their DH / life sucks and be called names by some pretentious know it all on the internet.
This board has helped me get through a failed blended marriage and then understand and grow into my new blended situation.

I hope those kicked take a long hard look at their behavior and how they treated others and understand why it was taken negatively.

Indigo's picture

Thank you, Dawn & the Admin Powers-That-Be.

There are a number of folk that are now not here that I will miss. Wish that perhaps I had better social skills so that I could ask for emails IRL so that we could stay in touch. (Blows anonymity to hell) I hate the sense of loss. Some of these folks have shaped my life for the better & I can no longer say "thanks" to them.

However, ... nonsense was escalating here to the point that I'd scan a post in the morning w/a thought to reply & when I returned at night the OP was already effectively eviscerated. Why bother sharing my thoughts after all?

Hijacking a thread "in fun" because you need a 'humor/friend-bonding break,' or you do not believe an OP, or they don't listen to you so they must be stupid/troll/other poster, or your job stinks -- is just horrid.

Diminishing.

(Yes, I failed out of Grammar Police Boot Camp).

So, hopefully, things can become a bit more even-keeled for a bit.

FYI IRL: indigohills7@msn.com

secret's picture

Haven't there been plenty of reminders?

There was a purge in the last year. There have been admin posts. It's not like those banned didn't know that the use of profanity, for example, was not acceptable... or that purposely insulting someone, was not acceptable... was a warning really necessary?

I dunno - I'm a believer that you reap what you sow, I don't know how a few of these posters didn't see it coming.

moeilijk's picture

Personally, I think if the 'rules' are posted but not enforced, it is not logical to expect that they may randomly be enforced at some unknown point in the future.

And I also think that if you want to manage the behaviour, it's more effective to give a warning with a clear explanation of what will not be tolerated again than it is to do a mass purge of everyone who done wrong in the last year.

Because, IMHO, it should be about encouraging the environment you DO want, rather than just stifling voices you have gotten sick of all of a sudden.

ESMOD's picture

I agree with Moe. I looked and saw one post a year ago. That isn't necessarily frequent enough that people might think that the status quo over the last year was "ok".

Also, perhaps if offending posters were counseled early on, things wouldn't get out of hand.

It's like this. You have one or two posters that are more acerbic, use more vulgar language. So, months go by, they continue on in this manner, nothing is said to them, so 1. they think it's ok 2. other posters start relaxing THEIR way of communicating. Next thing you know salty language and overly direct advice is seen as acceptable.

Then several months down the line... BOOM. The hammer falls on everyone even though it seemed like what they were doing was "ok" because no one was being told it really wasn't.

But at that point, a lot more people fell into that category vs the initial couple of people.

If someone had contacted the first couple of offenders directly and said. You need to find a way of getting your point across without use of profanity or putting posters down. perhaps things wouldn't have gotten so out of hand.

Yeah, I understand some are repeat offenders, but perhaps more frequent reminders would have worked and if they blew those off.. then they could get banned.

I also think some people got banned that were drawn into conflicts. (anotherstep? granny goose?) and while what got them banned might not have been their normal style, there were a few people on here bound and determined to harass and follow people around. Everyone has a limit.

We are also still somewhat ignoring the fact that this site is built upon the premise that we can vent in "ugly" ways about stepkids or Exes etc... So, that language is ok sometimes but not others????

secret's picture

I agree with you... though it seems that you might be saying that "counselling on behavior" should come from admin, and not from the offended parties...which I disagree with. Do correct me if I'm not understanding you properly.

If someone tells a poster they felt their comment was rude... that someone is jumped on as being a princess having her feefees hurt.

Sometimes, people who are accused of saying something offensive should back the heck up and consider that maybe yes, they're being a bit salty and that the OP perhaps isn't an overly sensitive snowflake... Especially if that poster has already been told a few times before by others... they really should consider that maybe they're not, in fact, surrounded by coddled babies, but maybe it's them that should check their behavior...BEFORE the admin checks it for them.

If you (general you - reflecting on my professional life for an example of how things work in communication where I work) say something that's offensive to me - I will tell you, and why I find it offensive. If you didn't mean to be offensive, that's your cue to clarify what you meant, to phrase it differently.... or to even just say Hey, I didn't mean to offend you, I'm sorry....and for me to adjust my initial perception and maybe get a better idea of what you're saying. Then you and I may or may not both reflect on the interaction, and try to see where the communication went a bit south.

If you meant to be offensive... well... that's on you, don't make fun of me for saying my feefees are hurt when that's exactly what you intended to do... and then you get the consequence you get, be it a verbal or written warning... or the boot. If I'm telling you my feefees are hurt, you shouldn't keep doing it until you're told by mom to knock it off because you think me telling you isn't enough of a warning.

After all... if I've now told you three separate times that what you've said hurts me...is insulting..whatever... but you keep doing it... you're blowing that off.

A large part of communication is that the person sending the message is the person who needs to phrase it in a way the receiver will understand. If you communicate properly, instances where you will unintentionally offend should be far and few between... because you've grasped the concept of interpersonal communication enough to have realized that you need to communicate in a way that your audience will understand. It's not enough for you to think you're being clear - your message has to be clear for the recipient.

A little bit off topic... but not really...Your example about language reminds me of a psychology article I read a long time ago...it's almost like Steptalk is the cage... certain posts are the banana... and the banned people are the monkeys from the beginning....

"This human behavior of not challenging assumptions reminds me of an experiment psychologists performed years ago.

They started with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, they hung a banana on a string with a set of stairs placed under it. Before long, a monkey went to the stairs and started to climb towards the banana. As soon as he started up the stairs, the psychologists sprayed all of the other monkeys with ice cold water.

After a while, another monkey made an attempt to obtain the banana. As soon as his foot touched the stairs, all of the other monkeys were sprayed with ice cold water. It's wasn't long before all of the other monkeys would physically prevent any monkey from climbing the stairs.

Now, the psychologists shut off the cold water, removed one monkey from the cage and replaced it with a new one. The new monkey saw the banana and started to climb the stairs.

To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attacked him. After another attempt and attack, he discovered that if he tried to climb the stairs, he would be assaulted. Next they removed another of the original five monkeys and replaced it with a new one. The newcomer went to the stairs and was attacked. The previous newcomer took part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, they replaced a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth.

Every time the newest monkey tried to climb the stairs, he was attacked. The monkeys had no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they were beating any monkey that tried. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys had ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approached the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that's the way it's always been around here.

People sometimes do the same in the workplace. How many times have you heard "It has always been done this way. Don't mess with what works." Instead of challenging these assumptions, many of us, like the monkeys, simply keep reproducing what has been done before. It's the easiest thing to do." "

ESMOD's picture

I think that the review and counseling should probably come from an admin because that is a "disinterested party". It's too easy to discount someone's complaints as just being over-sensitive or their misunderstanding (because it's the internet and not IRL).

Your example is interesting and in a way illustrates my point. By the admins being as hands off over the last year..with all of these posters (or at least I am assuming that many of them never had any prior warning).. they created the dynamic where people felt comfortable acting out in some ways.. vulgarity/language/harsher responses. Because it became the culture, it was repeated.. yet if it had been nipped early, it may have not taken hold the way it did.

The other issue here is that there ARE trolls that come on here with fantasy stories to tell that are practically tailor made to elicit drama and responses. So, you have people that see these kind of posts all the time and there are some "regular trolls" as well and people may be a little quick on the "this is crew" label.

TBH, there have even been posters that I have thought were certainly crew... because I just couldn't see how someone could possibly be so blind to their reality.

I tried when confronted with someone that seemed to want to be contrary just for contrary's sake to just back off the topic and take a break. I think if more people took that approach, then the conditioning would be that when people are too harsh then they don't get to be involved might make a bigger impact?

I don't know, I have seen some pretty amazing people on this site.. also some completely naive and some real broom riders. Sometimes people would change depending on the weather.. or whatever might have been happening "off screen"

I will stand by my assessment that I think the cut here was too deep and I think that some of the posters were worthy of redemption.

moeilijk's picture

secret, as you know I regularly disagree strongly with people, although I do tend to prefer to offer advice or comfort in situations where it seems the other party is actually wanting to try something different.

And here, I'm going to disagree with you. Biggrin

I agree with you... though it seems that you might be saying that "counselling on behavior" should come from admin, and not from the offended parties...which I disagree with. Do correct me if I'm not understanding you properly.

Why not? Most boards are moderated for appropriate content. It's strange that this one is moderated so rarely. And, it's also strange that so many posters will engage in clearly offensive and personal discussions when the delete key is available to them. Why would such a culture exist? Who would go out for dinner knowing that their server would be punching them in the nose at some point? Something about the interaction is benefitting both parties, especially if the one crying foul could end it at any point.

If someone tells a poster they felt their comment was rude... that someone is jumped on as being a princess having her feefees hurt.

So? Then delete, or rinse and repeat your request for communication to be done using polite words. I'm not trying to attack you here, but I am trying to get it across that if you have a beef with how someone talks to you because they are rude, then the fact that they continue to be rude is not a site problem or an admin problem, it is a THEM problem. In some cases it crosses a line, but if you take someone who is rude and interpret their communication as personal attacks when it is just their level of ability to communicate, you are creating the problem yourself.

Sometimes, people who are accused of saying something offensive should back the heck up and consider that maybe yes, they're being a bit salty and that the OP perhaps isn't an overly sensitive snowflake... Especially if that poster has already been told a few times before by others... they really should consider that maybe they're not, in fact, surrounded by coddled babies, but maybe it's them that should check their behavior...BEFORE the admin checks it for them.

Sure, pretty much anytime someone gives you feedback, you *should* give it consideration. But that goes every which way. If you feel someone is being rude and you give that feedback, and they give you feedback in return that you are overly sensitive... is it your claim that the biggest hurt feelings matter the most, and not really that feedback should be considered seriously. I might be wrong on your intent, but if it's good for the goose, it should be good for the gander too, right?

And, getting a little more interpersonal here, this is not new feedback for you from me. I have told you before that it is my perspective that you do not consider other points of view. If I tell you I think you are approaching xyz in a way that ultimately causes a problem for you, you tend to respond with a denial of some sort. I feel that you do not seek the grain of truth in what others say. Now, of course that's ok, it's not like everyone has to do that. But then it seems like something else is going on if you turn around and say that people have to consider what others say. And of course, I know you in such a narrow context of your life and who you are, so it could be that it is only in terms of your SM-life that you are resistant to feedback (in my perspective).

If you (general you - reflecting on my professional life for an example of how things work in communication where I work) say something that's offensive to me - I will tell you, and why I find it offensive. If you didn't mean to be offensive, that's your cue to clarify what you meant, to phrase it differently.... or to even just say Hey, I didn't mean to offend you, I'm sorry....and for me to adjust my initial perception and maybe get a better idea of what you're saying. Then you and I may or may not both reflect on the interaction, and try to see where the communication went a bit south.

Agreed. Lol, normal pro-social interaction, admirable it seems!

If you meant to be offensive... well... that's on you, don't make fun of me for saying my feefees are hurt when that's exactly what you intended to do... and then you get the consequence you get, be it a verbal or written warning... or the boot. If I'm telling you my feefees are hurt, you shouldn't keep doing it until you're told by mom to knock it off because you think me telling you isn't enough of a warning.

For this point, I would just say, not every battle is worth fighting. The fact that it bothers you so much is something for you to reflect upon. I know I've shared with you the story of another poster here who, I suppose, was going through something and suddenly lashed out at me in a way I found devastating. It took some serious time and reflection to make peace with it.

After all... if I've now told you three separate times that what you've said hurts me...is insulting..whatever... but you keep doing it... you're blowing that off.

That's information about that poster. Not a personal attack.

A large part of communication is that the person sending the message is the person who needs to phrase it in a way the receiver will understand. If you communicate properly, instances where you will unintentionally offend should be far and few between... because you've grasped the concept of interpersonal communication enough to have realized that you need to communicate in a way that your audience will understand. It's not enough for you to think you're being clear - your message has to be clear for the recipient.

And that is your logical side! Lol. Oh, if wishes were horses...

Willow2010's picture

SeMOD...Several of those banned have been banned before for the same actions they got banned for this time. A few of them multiple times. These are smart women. They always know there is a chance.

TwelveLongYrs79's picture

I have not been involved as much as some of you, but have tried to lurky-loo, and follow most of your stories, including the now "Voldemort's" of STalk.
Some of those who have been banned, I have found refreshing and honest. Advice given sometimes needed to be said the way it was said. And I am very saddened by it, their advice sometimes was invaluable.
A select few...I have found liked to pick on the newbies or instantly scream "Troll/CREW" because the story wasn't plausible enough for their liking.

"It's not what you say, it's HOW you say it."
I have no issue with any actual advice given, but insulting someone outright from the gate is not the way to offer advise or even constructive criticism. Would you have a face to face conversation with someone, and if they called you or your SO a moron/idiot/stupid fool right to your face the very first time you met them? Would you even tolerate any further opinions from that person? Doubt it.