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Not OT questions about Beneficiaries: Retirement accounts/401k

Livingoutloud's picture

Hey everyone I am very puzzled with what do people do with beneficiaries on their 401k? Well obviously mine was 100% for my DD before I got married second time. The thing is my DH changed his 100% to me right after marriage. I feel weird about it as I think he needs to give at least a bit to SD (we have two but relationship is only with one at the moment). I didn’t change mine yet. What do people do? What should I do? 

Comments

STaround's picture

Federal law mandates that your spouse is the beneficiay on your 401k, unless the spouse signs a very specficially worded post-nup (has to be post nup, not prenup, as only spouse, not future spouse can sign). 

This only applies to 401K, not IRA, so if you terminate service (change jobs or retire) and move money to an IRA, that can be left to a child, subject to state laws (which generally require that some portion, generally 1/3 to 1/2 of specified assets be left to a spouse).  The state law issues can be dealt with via a prenup. 

DH and I signed pre nups and post nups that our respective kids get each of our 401Ks. 

I think counting on a new spouse to take care of your biokids is unrealistic.

notarelative's picture

Jumping up and down and screaming yes here. The rules for 401k are federally set. The rules for IRAs vary by state so check you state rules.

Note also that your post nup might not be enough. My 401k provider had a specific form that needs to be signed (and notarized) too in order for them to distribute the money the way I wanted. Without that form in their records, no matter what my pre or post nup said, they would have distributed the money to my spouse.

STaround's picture

in addition to the post nup.  I have had similiar problems with accounts of my mom I have POA with.  In theory (and there have been some cases on this), beneficiary can sue the custodain, but who wants that.   At the end of the day, many people will retire before they die, and move money to an IRA, which has different rules. 

tog redux's picture

I don't have kids, but DH's beneficiary is 100% me.  My SS is 19 and BM still gets CS, which would undoubtedly still have to be paid by me if DH died before SS turned 21.  And after 21, he's an adult and on his own. 

I personally think spouses should be beneficiaries if someone is married.  401K is meant to be a retirement investment that should go to a surviving spouse, and if something is left up on that spouse's death, perhaps something goes to the kids on both sides.

Our will does say that SS gets 75% of anything left over when both of us die. If he ends up estranged, that might change. 

 

STaround's picture

You woud have to "undoubtely" have to pay CS if your DH died.  I think that is not right.

401K money can be more or less than retirement needs.  YMMV

tog redux's picture

I believe the law in my state is that any remaining child support gets paid out of the estate. 

I'm well aware of what 401Ks are. 

ETA: It apparently isn't the law, but the CP can file a claim against the estate as a creditor to get any remaining child support, and you can bet your a$$ she would do so. 

STaround's picture

I suspect this is state specific.  In any event, only relevant till kid is 21.  You have said befoe (and if I am confusing you with someone else, I apologize) that your DH had virtually no assets when you married.  In that situation, it would make sense that you get the majority of his assets.  Not everyone is in that situation.

tog redux's picture

Not everyone feels as if their kids should get everything from them and nothing should go to their spouse, as you do - assets or not. Unless you are a bazillionaire, or you are getting married when you are elderly, IMO - assets should go to your spouse.

DH has some assets, but he doesn't feel his child should come before his spouse. 

susanm's picture

Child support survives death and is paid from the estate in your state?  Interesting.  I wonder what percentage that is of the states.  In mine the obligation dies with the person and the estate is not obligated by specific statute.  The children only get what is in the will or any insurance/investments on which they are beneficiaries.

tog redux's picture

The CP can file to request the remaining CS be paid as credit cards companies can,  and it would be the top creditor. I suspect that could happen in any state that allows credit cards to go after money from an estate. 

And I do believe minor children can't be left out of a will entirely. 

tog redux's picture

UH - search it yourself, but it clearly says that the CP can file for the remaining child support owed. 

HowLongIsForever's picture

In our state it is pretty standard to require a life insurance policy with the CP (not the children) as beneficiary in the amount of whatever the outstanding CS obligation is.  SOs specifically requires an additional amount through college - again to CP and not a trust or to the child. 

It is also pretty standard to include in the decree verbiage that states that if at any time or for any reason the obligations are not met and there is a death that the estate will be held responsible and no current or future interest in the estate can do anything about that.

 

ESMOD's picture

This can be a sticky issue.

Generally, I think that married couples should leave the bulk of their wealth and estate to their spouse.  However, I do understand that this is a risk because if your spouse remarries and predeceases their new partner.. your children could end up with nothing from you in the end.  Or, your spouse could intentionally leave your kids out of your will.

On the flip side, we don't know what the future brings and your spouse could NEED that money to survive and would that be your wish to help your spouse actually live through a medical crisis etc.. before you would leave funds to your child (that may have a whole career in front of them to save etc...)  Your wealth might be tied up in a house too.. and what happens in THAT situation.

For these reasons.. and others... it is usually a good idea to speak to someone who can guide you through these waters (if it's significant enough to make that worth while)  financial planner.. estate atty etc.

One mechanism to help this might be use of trusts.. which makes the money.. or proceeds from the investments available to your spouse while they are alive.. but when they pass.. the principal balance goes to your children.

In my case.. my DH is 100% the beneficiary as I have no children and we have a will in place that will give me 100% of everything.. the intent is that if he predeceases me.. I would pass on wealth to his children.  We are over 50.. so at this point, I don't "realllly" see me remarrying if something were to happen.. and even if I did, I would still set aside a reasonable amount to pass to his girls..

But, we can't always count on people doing the "right thing".

But what do you do?  I guess it depends on how much you trust your DH to take your daughter's interests into account.  How much will he "need" this money too.  If he is very well off on his own.. maybe it stays with your DD?  Otherwise, you could always make some split to beneficiaries..

 

Ursula's picture

Spouse is the automatic beneficiary to 401(k) unless they sign a waiver stating otherwise and you file it with the 401(k) record keeper.  Even if you have your children listed, once you remarried it will automatically go to your spouse unless they fill out the waiver.  This is a federal requirement.

STaround's picture

If you are young at time of second marriage, and most asets are minimal, it is reasonable to expect that assets earned during marriage go to spouse, with some to kids.  If you are older, going into marriage with significant assets, not quite the same thing.

lieutenant_dad's picture

I'm more of a fan of setting up trusts if you want to pass on wealth or funds to kids after you die. I think retirement accounts are too unpredictable, especially if you are married. You could outlive your 401K, or you may be destitute at some point and never get to retire, having had to spend all your savings to survive.

If It's important to you that the kids have *something* when you're gone, then I would look at other options, such as a separate, smaller life insurance policy that they are the beneficiaries on, setting up a trust or savings account for each of them that you and DH put a little money into each month, opening a long-term CD in their names, etc. A post-nup is also a good plan to ensure that the kids get an equitable share upon your individual or mutual deaths.

All children should realize that they aren't guaranteed money upon their parent's death. I wouldn't feel good about taking part of my mom or dad's 401K if one of their SOs was still alive and could use it. They mutually worked for it, not me. I don't want to see my SF or Dad's GF struggle in their elder years just so I could buy a new car or pay off my house.

STaround's picture

You say -- "They mutually worked for it, not me."  That may be true in your situation, but in my case, most of my 401K was earned before I was married.  Every situation is different.

tog redux's picture

It would depend for me - if my mother got remarried right now at 85 and left everything she and my father saved to her new husband, I'd be angry.  But if we are talking about a long-term marriage that started in middle-age or younger, the spouse should be the main beneficiary. 

Livingoutloud's picture

In your situation your mom and dad saved it together. In both mine and DH cases our ex spouses contributed nothing as I didn’t have one except few years in my early 20s and his refused to get a job. So whatever we earned is ours with no exes contributions 

tog redux's picture

True - but even if it was just what my mother earned, if she left it all to a husband she married at 85, IMO, it wouldn't seem right to me. In that case, I do think some should be left to the children.

But in the case of a long-term marriage, it should be the spouse. DH and I could end up married for 25 years, why wouldn't assets go to me and not to his son?  Especially if I agree to leave some to his son if there is any left?

tog redux's picture

I guess he and I don't have the trust issues that you have.  If I tell someone I will do something, I will do it. 

Livingoutloud's picture

There is a way to ensure that what was made in first marriage doesn’t become something second husband can get. Why would a second husband be entitled to what first husband made? 

tog redux's picture

Well, now you are just talking in circles, because you gave explicit instructions above how to make sure none of your money goes to your spouse and every penny goes to your kids. 

lieutenant_dad's picture

Why wouldn't it seem right for your 85 year old mother to leave her money to whomever she wants to leave it to, be it a brand new spouse, an animal shelter, the state lotto, etc?

That's a mentality I don't get from kids. It's their parents' money to do with as they please. If they want to spend it all on h**kers and blow, then they can and should. I don't see how it would be my place, as the child, to dictate or be upset with my parents for how they want to spend their money, even if I don't agree.

tog redux's picture

I suppose. But I don't believe my father worked all those years to leave it to her husband she's married to for 2 years. 

If she wants to spend it all on hookers and blow, she sure can.  I've told her to spend it all before she dies. But if there is some left, I think some should go to kids - or at least for her husband to leave it to us.

For me, a very short-term marriage would be different, when some of the assets come from the prior spouse. 

BTW, my mother has no intentions of remarrying, and if she did, she would still leave some to us. 

lieutenant_dad's picture

But what you think doesn't matter because you're the kid. We preach here all the time that kids, no matter their age, don't get a say in parental/adult matters. This is no different. You can dislike it and not implement it in your own marriage, but you have no right to say it isn't okay for your parents. If your dad didn't ensure that his kids got a portion of his funds, then he didn't care enough about it being an issue to make sure it would happen. If your mom goes against his wishes, then she wasn't a great wife in the end.

I guess I'm surprised that you think your opinion matters on this when I don't think you wouldn't take your SS's opinion on what DH should do with his money.

tog redux's picture

You are comparing apples and oranges. First off, does my opinion "matter"? That's not what I'm saying - I'm saying I'd be upset with my mother if she left all of the money she and my father accumulated and he expected to be left to their children, to her new husband. If she and new husband spend it all before they die, that's one thing. But if they are married one year and she leaves all the money they accumulated over a 61 year marriage to him, I think that's wrong. Does my opinion "matter"? Well, if she does that, then obviously it doesn't matter. 

I've giving my opinion on how it should be handled in MY parents' situation. Situations vary.  If my parents were married 5 years and she were married to second husband for 50 years, then I would have a very, very different opinion.

If DH dies, I inherit everything. When I die, SS inherits 75% of what is left. So I am doing for SS EXACTLY what I am saying I hope my mother does for us. And he's not even my biological son.

I'm not quite clear on what part you don't understand. I'm not telling my mother to wear ripped underwear and not take vacations so I can get more money.  I'm saying that if she doesn't honor my father's wishes for us to inherit money that's left over, I will be upset. 

Aniki-Moderator's picture

^^THIS!

My Dad is a young 89 years old. He worked hasrd for MANY years to support his family - even after he retired. HE earned that money. HE earned those retirement benefits. While I know he has planned otherwise, I'd be perfectly happy if he spent every dime, living life on his terms and having what HE wants with HIS money.

My parents raiserd all of us to be independent and self-sufficient. I neither need nor want that money.

Livingoutloud's picture

My DD is self sufficient professional and doesn’t want my money. I just wanted to leave her something hence this thread. Nothing to do with her wanting anything 

tog redux's picture

Exactly - since when is "hoping your parents remember you in their will" the same as being greedy or telling them how to spend their money?

ESMOD's picture

This right here is sort of my POV.  Of course, I hope my dad does what he has indicated he will do and that is to leave  the majority of what he and my mom accumulated  divided equally amongst my brother and myself.  It's a decent amount and has the abiltity to make my life easier in many ways and my retirement more comfortable. (Yes.. I have 401k and a pension.. but.. more is better..lol).

Am I entitled to it?  Am I greedy for wanting that to happen?  I don't know.. I could make a lot of noble grand statements about it all.. but the bottom line is that I am not so plush in life that having MORE money at my disposal would be unwanted.  I did not tell my parents how to structure their wills.  What they decided was their choice.  Obviously, I will be disappointed if my dad has pulled a last minute switcheroo on us.  Is it his right? yeah.. sure.. but I would hope that is not the case.

I don't think kids are greedy for hoping their parents remember them in their will.  I also think it's important for parents to structure what they leave behind in such a way that if they WANT to ultimately leave something to their kids.. that it just is not given to the stepparent without any mechanism for that to happen.  Trusts can be set up that way with the stepparent as the beneficiary during life and then it goes to kids afterwards.

 

 

tog redux's picture

Right. People in this thread seem to be confusing "hoping to get an inheritance if anything is left" with "telling your parents how to spend their money", which are two very different things.  Of course my mother can do whatever she wants with her money. But if, like in your family, it ended up going to someone else's kids after my father and she worked 50 years to earn that money, I'd be a bit upset. 

Aniki-Moderator's picture

If you leave it to her, and she doesn't want it, she can always donate it to a worthy cause in your/her names. Smile

If I inherit any $ from my Dad, I will use it to maintain our family (his childhood) vacation home.

strugglingSM's picture

I say this to my DH all the time. His grandfather remarried after his grandmother died. He was married to the Step-GM for 25 years. When he died, he left everything to the Step-GM. Both of them lived in assisted living prior to his death and Step-GM lived in assisted living for 9 years after his grandfather died. They also traveled a lot. 

DH and his family - especially MIL - are still mad that Step-GM "took" all of his grandfather's money. First, they have no idea how much money grandfather had at the time of his death (MIL claims there was money set aside when she was a kid to pay for her and her siblings to go to college...they all went to college and grad school and their parents paid for it). Second, they assume that grandfather did not make the decision himself. MIL is still upset that she did not get an "inheritance" and talks about other people's inheritances all the time. She even told DH that he should make BIL the executor of his will, so that SSs get "what is rightfully theirs", not acknowledging that DH's marriage to BM ended with no joint assets, only joint debts. 

Meanwhile, DH's father died 20 years ago and his estate - which included nearly $2M in cash assets and real estate assets worth over $1M, not including any retirement savings he might have had - went entirely to MIL. It should have to provide for her, but she has spent that down and then some, so DH and his siblings will get nothing. Where will the outrage be then that the money went to the spouse, instead of the children. That's right, it will be nowhere, because children are only entitled if they came before the spouse, not if they came after the spouse!

Livingoutloud's picture

I see now. Thanks all. Didn’t realize that it has to go to a spouse 100%. I guess because I spent most my life single I didn’t know. It’s fine then. My DH definitely will need money.  Now I am thinking I’d rather have a small life insurance policy or increase % that she gets of the one I have.

Our kids are all grown so it’s not like they’ll be left destitute but I dont want to live my DD with nothing from me. We are older but for number of reasons don’t have much assets. I was only married briefly in young age so there was nothing that me and my ex accumulated together. My DH was married long time but she contributed nothing (besides extreme stress) and he now paid 1k in spousal support (she just died so that ended earlier than expected-story for another day). Whatever my DH has is absolutely nothing to do with his ex or their marriage. It’s all what he worked/works for

We do have nice jobs and decent incomes NOW (not always). 

So I’d like to leave at least something. 

Livingoutloud's picture

My DH believes everything goes to spouse. I don’t 100% agree. I have a small % of my life insurance going to DD but it’s small. I might increase it 

Livingoutloud's picture

Yeah it was court ordered and was about to end in few years, I think 3 more. But she just died. What’s there to think about? He hated paying her. But not like he wanted to 

Yes my DH put me as 100% beneficiary on everything. That’s what I am saying. He wants me to have everything. When I told him how in blended family it would be nice to arrange something for kids, he said he didn’t even think about it. I feel I have to think some more about it 

ndc's picture

There are tax implications (estate and income) to this, too, although unless you have an estate exceeding the rather large threshold for estate tax that one won't come into play.  You might want to look into that or talk to a financial advisor.

Livingoutloud's picture

I just looked up and I can make anyone a beneficiary. Doesn’t need to be one’s spouse. Doesn’t say anything about wavers either. I have annuity. I have to talk to an agent 

mro's picture

If you do not have a 401k, but have a different type of retirement account, the rules are going to be different.  I have an annuity, IRAs, and regular savings accounts and CDs. I was able to name my choice of beneficiaries without spousal consent.  For some assets, like 401Ks and real eatate (in my state), he would have to sign a waiver or cosign the TOD affidavit (for real property). If you're not sure how to proceed, I would speak with your plan adminisrator or a financial advisor or attorney.

Husband's wife's picture

My DH gets nothing if I die, everything goes to DD.

And before I had my child my beneficiaries were my best friend and cousin. I would prefer to give everything to the charity instead of leaving a penny for the DH’s kid and I am sure he would benefit from my money. I started from zero and worked hard enough to have USD 350 K savings and two apartments on my name. 

DH chose to quit studies, work, mate and reproduce with an uneducated woman, so be it. 

Husband's wife's picture

But I don’t want to be responsible for other people’s choices. ILs and DH are already providing for the boy. BM should do too. I don’t.

DH chose this lady for a mother of his child, this lady will let the child have whatever she earns. He chose me as a mother of his second child and I will do exactly the same. 

Livingoutloud's picture

It’s nothing to do with who provides for what. I never said you must provide anything. My point is that you always speak of him with contempt. Why be married 

Husband's wife's picture

I always talk directly, many people already told me that. 

tog redux's picture

I could live on $1800 a month in retirement without eating dog food, depends on where you live and how good you've been about paying down debt and living frugally. 

Livingoutloud's picture

Are you for real? I mean sure I could maybe survive living in slums but heck no way I could manage otherwise. What if your health deteriorates? 

tog redux's picture

True, that might complicate it, especially with Medicare Donut hole issues.  But if our house is paid off, I would only pay $400 in taxes a month (which I could decrease if I moved to another area), plus utilities which are cheap where I am - less than $100/mo. Then what do I need?  A phone, internet, and groceries.  That would still be less than $1000.  Paid off car, then just gas. 

I wouldn't want to live that way, but I wouldn't buy any dog food, either. 

Livingoutloud's picture

Just to clarify this thread isn’t about what kids want. If parents want to leave something to their kids it doesn’t mean kids want or expect or demand anything. My DD doesn’t. So this thread wasn’t about that 

every time someone starts a thread about inheritance or savings someone always starts screaming how kids shouldn’t expect anything. No one says they should. It doesn’t mean parents might not be willing to leave something. 

tog redux's picture

Exactly.  I don't "expect" anything, nor is my retirement planned around it. I've told her many times to spend and enjoy.  But if she dies with 500K and leaves it all to the local animal shelter with no good reason such as me being a lousy daughter, I think it's reasonable to be upset. 

strugglingSM's picture

Others have made some of these points above, but I'll share my two cents: 

1) 401Ks / IRAs are meant to cover retirement costs. One challenge with covering your needs in retirement is that you don't know how long it will last and can't predict what your expenses might be. In my view, leaving some of this money directly to a child and by-passing a spouse is risky, because what if your spouse needs funding for health care or other support services after you die? A stepchild is not likely to cover extra costs and prevent that spouse from falling into poverty. I think spouses should plan to provide for one another when they cannot work. Children can presumably work and support themselves after their parents have died (assuming that children are adults when their parents die).

2) If a parent wants to leave something to their child, they should save for this above and beyond what they are putting aside to cover living costs after they retire. You should only look to pass on wealth to your children if you can cover your own needs and the needs of your spouse first. The whole - put on your own oxygen mask before helping others - idea. There is no requirement that a parent financially support a child after that child has reached the age where they are capable of financially supporting themselves. It's a societal convention to expect an inheritance. It's weird to me when people feel entitled to money that their parents earned. I tell my parents repeatedly that my "inheritance" will be knowing that they were taken care of and could do whatever they wanted before they passed. I'm not looking for them to give me a large chunk of money. They earned that money, I didn't. 

3) My DH has these great dreams of both paying for SSs to go to college and giving them a chunk of money when they turn 30. He has not done much saving for either. He and BM saved money for college and then BM cashed out the accounts because she "needed" the money. I've told DH that I have not been saving for children, so if he wants to do either of those things, he needs to find a way to save for those things he wants to do - without shorting his retirement savings or his contribution to our household expenses. I've been saving for my retirement and yes, I will not allow DH to go without during retirement, but he also has to be planning and contributing. It may be sad when SSs don't get anything, but I don't see it as my job to make sure that either of their parents are financially planning for them. 

notasm3's picture

I don’t understand how people on Medicare with a supplement end up with boatloads of medical bills. I am on Medicare and my total medical expenses are well under $500 a year. I see 5 different specialists and take 7 pills a day.  My supplement premium is $0.  I am not low income so this is not subsidized.