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O/T - when is something wrong,

Acratopotes's picture

Lately all off the papers covers sexual misconduct towards woman.... as far back as early 60's..

I simply can't help to think that woman are now abusing the system, all screaming harassment over things that happened years ago, I pity young guys today, cause 20 years from now it will happen to them....

Young girls pretending they are older by the way they dress, make up - sneaking into bars with false id's... sleeping with whom ever buys their drinks, oh they might date a week or 2 till the guy is tired of the sponging girl or she finds a new guy with a thicker wallet, fancier car....
Young girl not caring about their bodies, have no self respect and jumps from wallet to wallet, just to be seen with the
Famous sports star, school hunk, rich older gentleman..

20 years from now, when they are worn and torn, with nothing to their names, look like 70, live in a small run down apartment, with various off illnesses..... are they going to scream sexual assault, rape, molestation to get their last 5 minutes of fame? My and your son who took the cookie on the silver platter, which he paid for with a drink or two... will his name be in the paper cause he made it, he's a senator, president, running for president, and now this little girl is jealous, she threw her life away in her youth for status, being looked at and money.. now she want to ruin your son's life?

when will this stop, and I'm not talking about rape, I'm not talking about real cases where the girl was forced, I'm talking about cases (80% of what's happening today) where a girls status and looks are more worth then her self worth at this age...

Comments

secret's picture

many certainly are abusing the system. Many of those to whom it happens "for real" never say a word about it.

Reminds me of a joke... not to be crass... but...

A woman took her husband's boat out one day, to the middle of a really nice quiet lake. As she sat there, enjoying the peace and tranquility, sipping her soda and reading her book, she sees a boat coming towards her...a wildlife warden.

He pulls up next to her, and say "Ma'am, you're in a restricted fishing zone." The woman replies "Oh, but I'm not fishing!"

The warden surveys the boat, and tells her "Well miss, you have a tacklebox, fishing rods and other fishing tools, so while you might not be fishing right now, you might... so since you have all the equipment, I'm going to have to take you in."

The woman says "that's fine, but I will have to cry sexual assault."

The warden is confused..."But Ma'am, I didn't touch you!"

The woman replies... "No, but you might, seeing as you have all the equipment...."

The warden starts his motor, tips his hat and wishes the woman a nice rest of her afternoon.

TwoOfUs's picture

This is BS. Women have been assaulted and harassed throughout history with no recourse and are finally being heard. That's all that's happening. None of the accusations lately have been about 'youthful indiscretions' that you seem to be so worried about here...they've all been far older, far more powerful men preying on younger, less powerful women. That's wrong and it needs to stop...and I'm glad women are finally being taken seriously.

Veritas's picture

#metoo

Acratopotes's picture

maybe you should read again what I wrote... I'm not talking about real cases, I'm talking about unknown girls, who left their parents house at 16 to become strippers, in the 60's, they had a ball and now they are 75 and suddenly they where harassed?

I'm talking about today's girl my daughter, your daughter... normal folk..... who lives promiscuous.. and I'm wondering...
will they do the same in 20-30 years time? The men they are sleeping with now is 22-30... thus 30 years from now these might be powerful old men...

I know there's real cases..... I do not say every one is looking for the 15 minutes of fame, but I'm asking what if some of these cases are not true, the men in this are being judged and sentenced in the media.... for what?

Some off these men being accused now are 65+ years old and the woman in their late 40's thus when these ladies where 21 these men where +/- 41..
both consulting adults, knowing what they where doing.... and they did it for 3-5 years..

TwoOfUs's picture

I did read what you wrote. I'm asking you where you're seeing that happening at all. You have a made up fantasy in your head about what "could" happen and are entirely ignoring what actually is happening and what does happen.

Which women are accusing men that they willingly had flings with? Specifically? The girls who were 17-21 when Weinstein was 50+ and locked into his hotel room with no way to escape? The woman who was groped by Franken while she was sleeping and forcibly kissed backstage? The much younger women who Lauer exposed himself to after pushing a secret button under his desk that locked the door remotely so they couldn't get away? The 14-16 year old girls that were trapped in a car by Roy Moore?

Since you're completely making up scenarios about stripper girls who had a ball and are now crying assault/rape...I'm just wondering who, specifically, you're talking about?

Acratopotes's picture

already gave the name that got me thinking, but seeing you are out on attacking...

christene keeler,

TwoOfUs's picture

Huh? How does she relate to this discussion at all? She never accused anyone of rape, harassment, or assault.

She made the fair point that she wasn't allowed to live her life in old age like others...she was made a scapegoat for a lot of stuff. But Profumo was never falsely accused of rape or assault...he stepped down because he was a 46-year-old married man having an affair with a 19-year-old who was also having an affair with a Russian spy...and he knew it. That was about national security / matters of state...not about someone being falsely accused of something.

Very confused about your post now. Apparently Christene Keeler dying at 75 has made you say that 80% of accusations are false or exaggerated. OK. Totally logical...

beebeel's picture

So you knew all of these women 10 to 40 years ago to make such a statement? You know nothing about them or what they went through. If successful men don't want their "lives ruined" they should keep their hands and penises to themselves. I have no fear my son will be accused of sexual assault because I will teach him it's wrong.

I don't care what a woman is wearing or what her life goals may be, it doesn't give any guy the right to touch her, speak about her body or friggin masturbate in front of her.

I'm glad these pervy pieces of feces are finally being called out.

Acratopotes's picture

LAdies - this is not a blog to insult people or start a cat fight... it's a simple retro question of how do you feel about all off these stories..

When I say, my son, your son... it's not literal.... I never said it did not happen.. yes I'm glad it's getting out there, but I feel
it's unfair for people to play judge jury and executioner in the media, if they do not have all the facts or if they where not there..

I truly feel some woman are crying wolf for 15 min fame

beebeel's picture

Fame? I have been following these stories and there are so many victims, I can't even remember a name of a single woman. There aren't getting famous by speaking out. We can't recall their names, but plenty of people including yourself will question their integrity. THIS mentality is what keeps so many victim silent. Uhg.

Acratopotes's picture

maybe if you followed it you would've understood better......

Some of these woman I want to tell... Hon nail him I'm 100% behind you and some of the woman makes me go mmmmm

but my blog is not specifically one case, it's overall and global, I'm not shaming any one... I had to look up the article I read that made me wonder..... and I can take it further, Monica Lewenski.... was she sexually used or was it consent?

beebeel's picture

As you state (and its not a matter of me understanding) we don't know anything but the scant details reported in the media. So, I'm not going to question the integrity, or childhood, or the style of freaking clothing of women who are complete strangers to me. To what purpose? It only serves to make silencing victims easier. That is the ONLY thing this crazy speculation does.

BethAnne's picture

Acra, women are not stupid. Every single one of the women who steps forward knows that they will be subject to people (and if they or their abuser are famous, press) who express views similar to yours. They know that their integrity and morality will be questioned. They knew that if they did not have photographic evidence that their lone single voice would be ignored, as many were when they tried to do something at the time of their abuse (or they were silenced by those conspiring to protect the abusers name). This is why it took MULTIPLE women coming forward for each abuser before they had a chance of being believed. If you take the time to read the individual accounts of the women who have come forwards you will see that each abuser has his own tactics that he repeats and refined over the years. It chilled me to read them that someone could get away with it all because a lone woman’s voice is never equivalent to a lone man’s voice.

Your description of women being ‘worn and torn’ disgusts me. Acra, the way you talk on here suggests that you and your SO get up to a fair amount of sex. I too have a great amount of sex. We are not worn and torn from sex. No matter the number of different people we have sex with. Sex is exercise, it makes us healthier, stronger. Please think on why you describe women in this way. It is a way of saying that sex and sexuality are bad for women, while passing no judgment on men.

Yes it is not beyond possible that some false accusations will get thrown in somewhere. But those will be vastly smaller in number than those that are finally finding their voices. Compared to the number of women who still have no chance of being believed if they talk about their abuse, it will be minuscule.

Acratopotes's picture

"Your description of women being ‘worn and torn’ disgusts me"

would you accept - washed out rag... (sorry can't seem to translate it to sound like Afrikaans)

worn in torn in the sense of hard living, living above income, spend money on lavish life style, now the looks are gone, there no real family left, there's nothing left.... they enjoyed their popular youth with too many parties and now they are forgotten ... and wants to be remembered for something again..

EDIT to |ADD: - I was not referring to sex... not at all

bananaseedo's picture

OMG and they want to be remembered as sexual abuse victims?? BEcause that's sooooo attractive and popular in a good way? Please.... Who wants to be remembered as a disbelieved accuser w/people like you calling then liars and wash ups?

Acratopotes's picture

why?

because I asked an uncomfortable question and opinions, or because it tends to get heated?

I do not intend to offend any one... it's a simply question of do you think all the stories have grounds or do you think some might be for fame?
thinking of how people act today ....

DPW's picture

This blog makes me sad because as women, with this topic especially, we should band together and fight the injustices, not find reasons to break each other down more. I'm not saying that we shouldn't use critical thinking skills to assess each situation for its validity but can we be kind to each other while we do it. Being a victim myself of not only workplace harassment but sexual assault, I find it troubling that in 2017, we still hear "Well, she asked for it because of how she was dressed."

I don't know if I'm articulating well enough to be understood.... I just find some women are so hard on other women; I just don't find it necessary.

Acratopotes's picture

Apologies then Hon, if this is close to home for you, but see.. you lived this, your story is not false,

how would you feel if you stand up and state your case (and no one ever asks for it regardless of how you dressed) suddenly you have 5 woman standing behind you telling the same story.... and when it comes to court... one woman is caught out lying about the whole issue... don't you think people will then go.. mm look at these woman plotting out of jealousy and you who where victimized... who thought you had support, finds out no one beliefs you cause your support was fabrications - this is my biggest worry...

WalkOnBy's picture

I couldn't agree more, DPW.

This whole thing saddens me. When women tear other women down for speaking about their experiences, I just, I can't even.

I, too, am a victim. A rape survivor. We women need to support each other, not tell victims it's their fault for wearing a push up bra.

Sweet T's picture

I think this is all a slippery slope, I think women get harassed and are afraid to speak out, I think there are women who use their looks and sexuality to get what they want....I think there are people ( because men are harassed too) that are going to have the courage to speak out and then there are people who are looking for their 5 minutes of fame. The 5 minute of famers are going to muddy the waters for the ones standing up for what is right.

Acratopotes's picture

thank you Sweet T - this is my point exactly... and seems like i was the only one thinking there are fame hunters involved

I do feel for the real woman, I truly do and I will support them...

bananaseedo's picture

But you claim to know which ones do it for fame and which are true victims....reality is NONE of us know. I won't err on the side of men, because historically, women and girls get sexually abused or have some incidence of improper behavior towards them. Statistics don't lie.

If I look back, I can think of 5 cases in my own life ranging from improper to statutory rape and then later marital rape and abuse.... and I was raised in a bubble in comparison to some. My mother was a hawk and did more then 90pct of moms out there to keep us kids safe from any encounter like this.

I can likely ask any of you to look back from childhood on and count the times something was amiss in how a man or boy behaved towards you.....but you want to discredit women and support the 'poor boys' when chances are where there is smoke there is fire.

TwoOfUs's picture

My first instance of sexual assault I was 10-years-old and in a Rite Aid. A 30+-year-old man tweaked my nipple and grabbed my ass. I'm sure I was totally asking for it.

These aren't women seeking 5 or 15 minutes of fame. It's an entire chorus of women saying enough is enough. We're not putting up with this treatment any more...we insist on being heard and taken seriously. Consider for a moment that what these women mean when they say #metoo and when they say 'believe women' is not...believe every single thing a woman ever says, without any proof, even if she says the grass is blue and the sky is green...but something far deeper and more profound than that. Simply, take what we say about our own experiences at face value. Take it seriously. Have some empathy. Imagine, for one moment, what it might feel like to be treated like a second-class citizen by society and like a sexual object by men...starting from around the age of 10 or 11. Consider...for just one moment...that being objectified and harassed could actually have a striking and lasting impact on your self-image, your self-confidence...your entire life...before you decide to laugh it off or be dismissive.

I have never seen anything like the #metoo movement in my life...and I never thought I would, given the fact that women have been talking about this among themselves and to authorities for hundreds of years and nothing has happened. I think that the current movement is something to be proud of and excited about...not something to throw a wet blanket all over. We're literally light years away from men, in general/as a whole, being in 'danger' of being ruined on the basis of one un-credible, completely unsubstantiated allegation...so why all the manufactured worry about a situation that simply doesn't exist? We see through it, y'all. We see it for what it is...an attempt to put women back in their place. Not. Going. To. Work.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Agreed, Sweet T. I know a gal who, years ago, claimed a teacher assaulted her. The teacher lost his job. A couple of years ago, I saw her out (she was drunk) and she bragged about how she lied to get a teacher fired because she had the hots for him and he turned her down flat. THESE are the kind of 'women' who make it harder for those who have truly been assaulted.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

I got in her face, told her what a POS twatwaffle she was, and that I hoped karma had a rude payback in store for her.

Sadly, there was nothing I could do from a legal standpoint. The man she accused died a few previously. Sad

Veritas's picture

Fact: Women are now rising up and saying "No More" to being abused!! I have never seen a movement like this in all my 53 years and it's about time.

Fact: There will always be a percentage of women who lie about their abuse. It's not just here and now but has gone on for years. They are the minority though...

Fact: If you have been abused by a man, lost a job or opportunity, got a smack on the ass or was told to sit down and shut up, you see this post as an affront to your own life experience and may even feel categorized by it. Don't. It is an opinion and thank God we all have the right to express ours. You know your own truth.

Fact: There will be some good men that get accused and have done nothing. That part is a shame but it will happen. It is a consequence of taking back our power as women because there is no easy way to sort the truth from the liars in the world. An unfortunate part of the process.

witch.hazel's picture

"Fact: There will be some good men that get accused and have done nothing. That part is a shame but it will happen. It is a consequence of taking back our power as women because there is no easy way to sort the truth from the liars in the world. An unfortunate part of the process."

Yes, and I am sick of nearly all women(and men who were molested as boys) being called or assumed to be liars just in case there happens to be that rare situation where a false accusation happens. We re victimize hundreds of thousands of people "just in case" someone might be lying. It happens in domestic violence as well, and I hope that's the next issue to get the focus.

witch.hazel's picture

Being sexually assaulted never leaves you. Years and years go by, and you don't get over it. You watch the person who did it to you having fun, being popular and liked by people who don't know what he did, while you are quiet, hurt and angry as it affects how you feel about yourself. You watch him enjoying life, while you cannot truly enjoy it or ever escape.

So many people don't tell at first because they are sure they won't be believed. They'll be further ridiculed. There may even be retaliation towards them.

I'm happy that so many women and some men are coming forward. I think that it leaves those abusers who haven't been outed yet now living with daily fear that their time will come. I think that others who may have abused someone are going to think twice because people aren't so afraid to talk anymore, since the collective of victims have decided to go public.

There are still many who won't tell and will continue living in shame. I think we need to focus as well on teaching children to tell a trusted adult immediately if anyone tries something off with them.

Two stories from my life- At 12-13 a boy in my class would molest me on the bus nearly every day. I just froze, didn't know what to do. I would move seats, and he would move with me. One day, I got the courage to yell, "stop it" at him. And it ended that day. From then on I wondered why I hadn't told him to stop it earlier. It wasn't consent, it was fear. I was afraid to tell anyone- the principal wouldn't believe me, my mother (who often told me I was unattractive in different ways) wouldn't think anyone would want to touch me, so I was lying. I'd be made fun of by kids at school. So, I said nothing, and for two decades or more I was angry, hurt and ashamed. It really affected my life. At 36 I had a sort of mental break down. I confronted him through a facebook message. I fully expected him to deny it, but he apologized. I had closure, finally. The anger is gone. I still carry some of the shame for not telling him to stop it earlier, for being the one he did this to in the first place.

My son was almost molested and certainly harassed by my ex ss, who took out his penis and demanded that my son do sexual things with him. I was not home. He ran and hid, and then told me the second I walked in the door. I believed him and confronted ex ss, who was sent to a special school for years. He told me because he was taught by a special police program at his school to do so. What if he had not? What would have happened to him if he kept that secret?

I can only imagine what it's like to be the one who has an abuser who publicly denies it. Woody Allen's poor daughter. To have to watch him continuing to be famous, lauded and loved after she came out and he denied it. Disgusting.

Letti_R's picture

Not every woman who comes forward is telling the truth.
Not every woman who comes forward is lying.

Not every man who is accused is guilty.
Not every man who is accused is innocent.

I dont like the blanket statements where you must believe the women, where you must lynch the men.
Each case should be looked at on its merit - and you can make a determination as to legal merit and moral merit.
There may be no provable legal guilt, but that doesn't mean you are innocent.
You may be the scumbag tosser they say you are. Even with no court case.

It takes a lot for a woman to come forward and allege sexual assault or sexual harrassment. Too many victims of sexual assault do not report. Some victims who do report are lying, however, this is a very small percentage.

I am not in your corner because I am woman. I am not against you because you are a man.
I have the right to determine for myself how credible you are from what you say.
Or you will have your credibility tested in a court of law.

I am still surprised by the woo-haa in the USA over this.
In the UK. my generation of women are a lot more assertive of our own rights.

More power to the women (and men) who take a stand!

beebeel's picture

The saddest thing, to me, in this entire debate is what is happening on this board today happens everywhere all the time. Even in the RARE case that a woman sees her sexual abuser in a courtroom, she is slandered, vilified, and made out to be a liar and a slut. Every damn day victims of sexual assault are treated this way in our "justice" system. They will continue to be treated so unjustly until these mysogynistic notions are driven out by shame and fear or die out.

Anyone who thinks its Ok to even discuss clothing, or how many sexual partners, or any other IRRELEVANT factors regarding sexual assault should be ashamed. And I'm glad there are men living in fear today that their victim may speak out tomorrow. It makes me satisfied that a feeling they inflicted FOREVER on their victims is finally coming back in karmic justice.

Veritas's picture

I disagree with some of the comments but I love that each of us has the opportunity to discuss and to possibly see other sides or other opinions. Maybe a different thought will add to or lessen a conviction. I try to be open to the power of information and education.

You may not agree with many comments on this post but these types of discussions add to who we are and help us relate to each other. Not all posts are comfortable but they give us an outlet to voice our opinions and while nothing may get settled, I use them to work on my own issues of reaction and response. Why is that important? Because it keeps me well rounded and open to actually listening. I don't always like what I hear but the only other option is hearing only my own voice.

"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"...S. Covey....it works Smile

beebeel's picture

The opinion that a woman is ever "asking for it" hardly needs more airtime. I can't be open-minded to that, but I am pleased that I was able to call it out.

robin333's picture

Come’on You know those young girls and boys were asking for it. The grown women- they were begging for it. I’m pretty cynical right now. Nothing justifies sexual assault or harassment.

beebeel's picture

I've been a cynic my whole life, but I'm still disgusted.

robin333's picture

Wow, sometimes we are own worst enemy. The reference to women using men for money or being attractive to men based on the size of his investment portfolio is absolute bullsh*t. Stop perpetuating the notion that women are incapable of being independent.

I have a DD. I want a better world for her so I appreciate the women coming forward and talking about it at THEIR expense (blogs like this is why a lot of women stay silent.)

advice.only2's picture

Acra I feel like you are projecting who your SD is onto other girls. Just because a girl parties, goes out and sleeps around doesn't mean she can't be assaulted. Remember the movie with Jodi Foster...she was a drunk bar fly who got gang raped and figured no matter what she said nobody would believe her because she was a drunk barfly.

I understand your post and I understand where you are coming from, yes good people get accused of things, it happens because the system sucks and it's not perfect. But a lot of victims get shamed at the same time and nothing happens to the person who abused them.

Acratopotes's picture

advice - No I'm not... I was not even thinking of SD when I started this blog, I read part of a book extract and then a article,

The ladies who's memoir it was never claimed to be used, but the reporter turned it around to make it look that way, so I started wondering about the whole issue, yes the media is full off it, and by the way... not only females coming out but males as well....

Believe me if SD ever should get raped, I will take justice into my own hands and I do not care about the consequences, yes I know we do not get along but she does not deserve being raped, yes I do not like my SD, but I never blamed my special snowflake, she only became the person her parents raised her to be.... I do blame SO for not being a good parent and I do blame BM for doing to her daughter what she's doing, but I never blamed my Aergia...

still learning's picture

Rape and assualt are completely different than regretting a consensual sexual encounter. Many of the accounts I've read are from adults who willing went home w/the other person, got in their bed and got touched or had consensual sex and now claim that they didn't want it.

While many of these claims are legit some are completely ridiculous and attention seeking. Yes it is concerning that a woman can cry rape decades later against someone she may have a grudge against and zero proof. As a mother of sons yes it's very concerning. I've drilled consent and respect into my boys and hope they use those concepts out there in the world of women.

Years ago I was sexually assaulted in a park by a stranger who came up to me and grabbed me and wanted sex. He was telling me all about his p#nis and how gentle he would be. Luckily I broke away, got help from some guys nearby and they called the police. The guy was apprehended and I had to go to court and testify against him. This is a legitimate case of assault.

I've also had sex with men who I really didn't like. I may have been a bit inebriated but still willingly went along with them. I went home w/them and things happened. I was dumb, it wasn't the best expereince. They wanted it more than me but I never said no so it was consenual. Huge contrast from my experience in the park. The first was assault the others a bit regretful.

WalkOnBy's picture

and what accounts are you reading, because NONE of the Weinstein victims gave consent. None of the accounts I have seen have been from women who had consensual contact and then later regretted it.

beebeel's picture

None of the Loius C.K. victims gave consent. None of the women who have accused Lauer had previous sexual relationships. O'Reily didn't have consent. Spacey? Nope. No relationship, either. Ailes? No again. All of the women who have come forward faced firing or career ruination by doing so. But yeah... They're all lying sluts who asked for it because cleavage. And the poor men should have all their power and jobs reinstated because penis.

WalkOnBy's picture

thanks for enumerating all the others, my damn phone rang and I had to go and do actual work.

secret's picture

just look at Jian Ghomeshi. Maybe what the girls alleged happened, really did happen... maybe he really did slap them around and choked them during rough sex... but they went back for MORE....

I dunno about you, but if a man assaults me, I'm not going back for date number 2. Or 3. I'm not going to keep calling him for months and/or send him nudie pics to try and reconnect...

Consent doesn't necessarily mean "yes", it can mean "did not say no". (barring obvious inability to say no such as incapacitation.)

robin333's picture

Are you serious that not saying no is giving consent?! Have you ever been afraid for your life? Ever heard of freezing. It’s a REAL instinct.

still learning's picture

How is a man supposed to know she doesn't want sex if she doesn't communciate it? A woman goes home w/a man, gets naked, gets in his bed has sex, ever said no but now it's non consensual because she never really wanted it but never said no?!

witch.hazel's picture

Not saying no is not consent. There are many reasons why a victim may not have used that word.

Consent is making sure that the other person involved KNOWS you want it by your words and/or participation. It's pretty obvious when you're with someone who wants to have sex with you.

It's also obvious when they are not consenting- someone who's passed out, who's incapacitated in some way, someone who is frozen and not reciprocating, not vocalizing pleasure and of course, someone who is underage or there is an imbalance of power.

I'm tired of people pretending not to understand what consent is and is not.

still learning's picture

I agree with everything you said and reiterate my original point that having morning after regrets does not equal not giving consent or sexual assault.

TwoOfUs's picture

That's not what's happening here, though. I'm not seeing a single case of morning-after regret in the news. Lots of cases of powerful men preying on young, not powerful women...lots of cases of rape, assault, and workplace harassment being dismissed or excused for decades.

Seriously. Why are we talking about something that literally isn't happening? At the expense of something that is? What I read when I see threads like this, and comments like this, is that theoretical/potential harm to men is more serious and more important than actual harm to women...and that just makes me see red...

WalkOnBy's picture

well, I was unconscious when I was raped, so....

How about men understand that they should not rape women who are unconscious? THAT would have been nice.

Totally agree with you witch.hazel - consent is making sure that the other person KNOWS you want it. When that person is unconscious, perhaps that just might mean they can't answer.

That women here on this post think otherwise is really grossing me out right now.

secret's picture

If she gets in his bed, willingly, they mess around, and the next day she tells her girlfriends she felt pressured into it and feels violated... is it rape?

No.

She didn't make it clear she wasn't willing.

She might not have been willing, but if she didn't share that, how's he supposed to know?

Consent should be taken as a mutual understanding of what's happening, and mutual agreement that it is to continue.

If one party is in disagreement, the other must be aware....otherwise, consent was not revoked....

still learning's picture

If you're going back for more it does make the whole forcable rape accusation questionable. Women do seek out sex w/powerful men to try to climb the professional ladder. Just like the recent Martinez allegation, George Takei, and 93 yr old George Bush Sr who was accused of groping a woman in a room of people which was probably just a tremor. These are all questionable and are a slap in the face to the true victims.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

"...which was probably just a tremor."

And I spewed coffee across my desktop.

Dovina's picture

Ahh yes Ghomeshi that is a good example of the blurriness of many assault claims. He used his power to lure women, was known for rough sex with his "dates" or "victims" that in itself marks him as a violent sex offender. Yet the case twisted when proof came out that several of the claimants continued to date him.

secret's picture

Yeah.... I mean... they could have walked away at any time. Clearly, they held the benefits of dating him in higher regards than their own self-worth.

Dovina's picture

Now the guy was pond scum for sure. But as I recall, is this correct that CBC fired him once allegations came out ?

TwoOfUs's picture

The reason that men in positions of power and authority lose their jobs because of sexual harassment is because, legally, their position makes consent from the woman impossible. Similar to statutory rape. A 13-year-old can't consent, legally...even if she (or he) does so verbally. Which is why people who work together have to formally disclose their relationship to HR. If they don't do so, it's likely to be, at least at some level, under the table and non-consentual...again, legally.

Perhaps as women become more powerful in the workplace or are placed in positions of greater power, we will be able to revisit this standard...as there is more equal footing in general. But, as it stands, every workplace has harassment policies in place, as well as morality clauses, that make this kind of behavior grounds for dismissal. That has nothing to do with the women in question or false allegations or overblown accusations or consent vs no-consent and everything to do with workplace policy.

Dovina's picture

I did not know that, I am just vaguely recalling the Ghomeshi situation.

WTF...REALLY's picture

No reason to spend time worrying about the small amount of women who have abused the system.

Instead it is time to be proud of the brave women standing up for what’s right!

So many women want to shame victims and throw in discussions about clothing. I have always thought it was thier defense mechanism. This could never happen to me since they don’t dress or act a certain way.” Arguing about the few women that abuse the system makes me think how deeply scared and insecure the auguring woman must be.

It’s been a dangerous world for women for hundreds and hundreds of years! I am so happy to see America start to address the issue of abuse towards girls/women.

Be supportive of your fellow women.

still learning's picture

"Arguing about the few women that abuse the system makes me think how deeply scared and insecure the auguring woman must be."

???

Now we are shaming anyone who questions the validity of a claim as scarred and insecure? Shouldn't we question every single claim since someones livelihood and freedom are at stake?

WTF...REALLY's picture

I see the majority of this conversation is “women shaming” versus being excited that this complex issue has finally coming to light.

So yes, that women are so quickly going against each other because of the few who abuse the system does make me think that those women are deeply insecure and use it as a basis of a defense mechanism so that they feel better about themselves. That it could never happen to them.

Every type of crime humanity uses against itself has a percentage that is fake and abuses the system. But you don’t see long drawn out conversations about falsely accused murderer, beatings, robbery, etc.

But start talking about women and sexual abuse, and women get shamed within minutes.

TwoOfUs's picture

The commenter you're responding to wasn't talking about questioning the validity of A claim...but about the people who are arguing about the climate in general and casting doubt on EVERY claim. There's a huge difference.

If you mean 'questioning' as in asking questions to find out what happened...then, yes, of course. Just like we do with any other report of a crime. Where were you? What happened? Can you describe the man who mugged you? Etc.

However, if you mean 'questioning' the way most people mean it and use it...aka shaming, silencing, and intimidating women who speak out...then, no. We shouldn't 'question' every single claim in this way...or any claim in this way. If it's a lie, there are ways to find that out (and it typically is found out)...without the need to assume that all or most are lying.

This doesn't happen if someone gets robbed. No one asks what they were wearing or if they said no loudly enough or fought back hard enough. Similarly, no one uses the fact that SOME people lie about getting robbed to try to get money out of insurance companies to imply that ALL or MOST people who report a robbery are actually lying. Or the fact that SOME people lie about being the victims of a hate crime in order to push a political agenda to imply that ALL or MOST people who are victims of hate crimes are lying. See where this is going? This post doesn't just say that there are a few, very rare false allegations. It claims that almost all of the charges are overblown and our precious young boys are now in 'danger' because of the current 'witch hunt' -- that is a ridiculous statement to make.

bananaseedo's picture

BRAVO!!!! Wonderfully said...I'd like to see the 'defenders' respond to that.

No one asks what they were wearing or if they said no loudly enough or fought back hard enough. Similarly, no one uses the fact that SOME people lie about getting robbed to try to get money out of insurance companies to imply that ALL or MOST people who report a robbery are actually lying. Or the fact that SOME people lie about being the victims of a hate crime in order to push a political agenda to imply that ALL or MOST people who are victims of hate crimes are lying. See where this is going? "

WalkOnBy's picture

Right? No one says "well, did you TELL that robber to not steal your stuff?"

secret's picture

No, but they ask questions as to who was there, what happened, is there security cameras, were they on... if not, why not? Do they have a panic button? If so, why wasn't it pressed?

Every situation is questioned based on facts relevant to the situation.

The people usually asking the questions about how a victim might have been dressed, their state of mind, what happens before, are generally defense counsel. Not saying that any of these things are "relevant" to the situation... but they're very "relevant" in trying to establish the victim as not entirely innocent.

I'm not saying it's right, but it's what happens.

WTF...REALLY's picture

“I am not saying it’s right, but it’s what happens.”

Until you change the way you look at the situation, you’re always going to fall into the category of “it’s not right but it’s what happens.”

This movement is to stop this kind of thinking. “It’s not right but it’s what happens.”

Time to rethink how you look at the situation and stop falling into the category of “it’s not right, but it’s what happens.”

Time to open your mind to the complexities of the situation and advocate for true change versus sticking to the status quo of “it’s not right but it’s what happens.”

Free your mind, and the rest will follow.

secret's picture

What do you propose?

We can protest all day long for victims rights... but all we see is the perception that the one making the allegation is the victim... who's to say that the one being accused isn't the victim? Can't find that out without asking difficult questions, and unfortunately, the answers don't always make the accuser seem credible.

For sure I'm open to change... of course I am. It's not right for women to be shamed into admitting they had a part in what happened to them... for change to happen, those who are the judge and jury need to open their minds to the idea that just because a woman was dressed provocatively, or engaging in risky behavior, doesn't mean she was asking for it...

Take 2 women - both raped in similar circumstances.

One is a respected member of society, always well dressed, never engaging in risky behavior. Married, couple of kids.
The other is a cheap prostitute, always dressed to seduce, engaging quite often in risky behavior. Not married, no kids, drug addict.

Without even getting to trial, the prostitute has likely already been typecast... because society can suck. People thrive on the drama... and the fact that she's a prostitute will outshine anything else in those proceedings. Questions like... do you think this would have happened if you weren't dressed that way? THAT needs to change, because it implies that it wouldn't have. Surely those questions aren't asked of the first woman.

Obviously it needs to change... but without women speaking out, it won't. Women need to speak out instead of remaining silent... they need to put themselves out there instead of being ashamed or scared of being seen as someone who makes poor decisions. THAT will bring about the biggest change, IMO.

WalkOnBy's picture

The movement is "it's not right." Full stop.

I think I am going to go listen to some En Vogue Smile

ESMOD's picture

Actually, when we were robbed, we were questioned about our safety habits around the home.. like did we use the deadbolt. Did we have security or game cameras up.. no? well those might have helped prevent or more quickly resolve it.

As far as having to deal with "cheats".. dealing with insurance companies these days is horrid because so many people HAVE abused and gotten over on them. I remember a time when a claim could be quickly resolve in a satisfactory way.. now? I have been involved in 2 multi year fights with insurance companies over completely legit claims that were not of our own making.. and they are hardwired to deny and minimize everything. Shoot, even with the burglary, we found that the contents part of our ins policy had magically vanished from the original policy at some point in renewal.

So, false claims damage real victims. There only need to be a few of the false ones discovered to poison the pot for the majority. It might not be fair, but that's how it works out in most cases. And, while we teach our daughters to value themselves and stand up for themselves, we should also make sure our sons understand the ways that they need to ensure that they are on the right side of things by not putting themselves in ambiguous situations.

ESMOD's picture

I just want to go on record here that I don't want people to confuse the fact that I think that the way we present ourselves to the world is going to impact the way that people interact with us is saying that because a woman wears 6 inch heels, it's ok to assault or harass them.

If you are dressing in a manner that is contrived to attract attention, understand that you don't have control over who notices and gawks or approaches you because of it. That is not giving anyone permission to assault you, but it means that you can't only send out signals that your "preferred mates" will respond and all the other duds won't.

There are dress codes in workplaces and other institutions that are in place for a variety of reasons. Primarily they seek to ensure safety and comfort.. but they often also seek to set a certain professional/respectful level of dressing so that people aren't wearing their beach attire to the office or dressing as if they are going to a night club where they would typically be looking to attract a mate vs getting payroll done or a legal case settled.

Honestly, it's a tightrope we walk sometimes. We try to educate people on ways that they can reduce the chances of being a victim because some crimes ARE somewhat dependent on the opportunity. An unlocked car or one with visible packages is more liable to be burglarized. Is it victim blaming to tell people to lock doors, put packages in the trunk and park in well lighted areas? I mean, certainly you could do all those things and still be burglarized, but it is likely the incidence would be reduced by taking those steps. Yet, when we advocate counseling young women to exercise caution when going to campus parties (while also advocating that the frat houses have training)there are people who want to say that it's like saying it's a girl's fault if she gets assaulted. Certainly it isn't, but perhaps if she had taken some steps.. it might have been less likely. And of course, sometimes, nothing they could have done would have resulted in a different outcome.

So, if you want to wear whatever.. or nothing.. no, no one should assault you. In fact, how someone dresses may have no bearing whatsoever on why someone chooses to perpetrate an assault. But that still doesn't mean that dressing in a way that respects the occasion is somehow tantamount to blaming a victim. Seriously, teach women to respect themselves and teach men to respect women.

beebeel's picture

When you talk about what a woman is wearing within the context of sexual harassment and assault you are victim shaming and excusing the abuser. Period. Is there a time and place for the "everyone should have self respect" talk? Sure. A discussion on sexual assault is not that time or place.

ESMOD's picture

This is a problem with having this conversation. There is a huuuuge difference between someone who is getting asked out by someone that they are not interested in vs someone who is pressured by someone who has power over them, like a boss, vs someone who is physically assaulted.

Harassment can be viewed by someone as being asked out by guys they aren't interested in. Or it could be cat calls by the construction crew or it could be coworkers telling dirty jokes or it could be their boss inviting them up to the hotel room... all very different situations.. and certainly, how someone dresses may or may not have anything to do with whether those things happen or not.

So, while you can say that at times dressing a certain way may get a woman attention she is not seeking... that doesn't mean that the way a woman dresses makes it ok for someone to drag her into an alley... It's not wrong to remind girls that while trying to hook that cute boy in the corners' eye that she may end up with other attention (not saying assault necessarily!) that she doesn't mean to invite. It also means we teach boys that a girl's clothing don't give them the right to assault her.

WalkOnBy's picture

But here's the thing - NO ONE has the right to ogle, harass, assault a women. EVER. and it DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THEY ARE OR ARE NOT WEARING.

this is unique to female victims - did anyone ask Terry Crews what he was wearing when he was assaulted? No, of course not.

How about we teach our boys to keep their damn hands to themselves? To think about how the woman they're catcalling is someone's sister/mother? That just because they have a stupid thought in their head does not mean that they have to let it leave their mouth?

I wear things that are tight, sexy and noticeable. I DO respect myself and it's precisely because I do that I wear whatever the hell that I want.

Comparing a victim of a burglary and a victim of a rape is just a stupid false equivalency. Stop it. Just stop. PS - I was raped when I was 18. At a frat house. Most likely I would not have been raped if my rapist hadn't drugged my drink. You gonna tell me that was my fault??

secret's picture

PS - I was raped when I was 18. At a frat house. Most likely I would not have been raped if my rapist hadn't drugged my drink. You gonna tell me that was my fault??

1) so sorry that happened to you.

2) No, not your fault...definitely not... but I can guarantee you kept a closer eye on your drink any time after that, yes? Not because you did anything wrong... but because you didn't want anyone else to do wrong by you

robin333's picture

THIS. You are implying that a woman was raped because she didn’t watch her drink closely enough.

Don’t you have daughters?

secret's picture

No - I'm implying that BECAUSE a woman was raped, she probably watched her drink MORE.

I never had a security system until I got robbed, I felt locking my door was enough.

I never took self-defense classes until I was attacked, I felt I could protect myself.

I never took my drink to the bathroom with me until I was drugged, I felt my friends could be trusted.

ESMOD's picture

But here's the thing - NO ONE has the right to ogle, harass, assault a women. EVER. and it DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THEY ARE OR ARE NOT WEARING.

But... unfortunately, people look at other people and harassment CAN be in the eye of the beholder.. ie I dressed up nice to get the attention of the cute boy in school, but the ugly goof started to ask me out instead.

Nothing I have said precludes the fact that MEN and BOYS also need to understand how to interact respectfully with the opposite sex.

And, while I wouldn't BLAME you for being drugged and asaulted, there are safety tips that people give to girls now.. including don't accept open drinks, watch your drink or have a trusted girlfriend watch your drink. buddy system at these types of events.

Will it prevent ALL instances? NO, of course not. Is it your fault if you are a victim? NO, of course not. Is it ok because you didn't watch your drink? NO.. the perpetrator should not have done any of that... but that doesn't mean that we don't have to do the unfortunate thing and tell women how they can at least attempt to reduce the chance they will be less likely to be the one victimized. That doesn't mean that stuff isn't still good advice. Perhaps SAD that we have to give it, but important to try to give people some tools to try to protect themselves.

WalkOnBy's picture

"And, while I wouldn't BLAME you for being drugged and asaulted, there are safety tips that people give to girls now.. including don't accept open drinks, watch your drink or have a trusted girlfriend watch your drink. buddy system at these types of events."

how sad that you can't see that you are tossing blame around...

You just don't get it. I hope it never happens to you.

ESMOD's picture

It did.

ESMOD's picture

Not really. I've done the right things and done stupid things. People have taken advantage buy I also don't ignore the fact that I may have avoided certain situations.

ESMOD's picture

Not really. I've done the right things and done stupid things. People have taken advantage but I also don't ignore the fact that I may have avoided certain situations.

secret's picture

Nobody is tossing blame around.

Someone put something in your drink. That's not your fault.

Saying that it's likely you took extra precautions so it wouldn't happen again is NOT saying that you didn't take any in the first place.

Jesus. If someone tells you their house was robbed... wouldn't the next question be "did you upgrade your security?" It's NOT blame.

WalkOnBy's picture

nope - if someone tells me they were robbed, my next question is "are you okay?"

bananaseedo's picture

It honestly is just as important to teach our sons and daughters about unwanted advances, consent, legalities, respecting eachother. And for girls, YES, they DO need to be told about watching their drink.

My SD told me the story of her and her friend-friend spiked the drink and took advantage of her friend. She said she thought because they were with friends they would be fine. They didn't report it, they didn't say anything until way later...in our girls circles it seems these things are 'normal' almost-which is devastating.

I preached at her the importance of never having her drink unattended -EVEN w/her guy friends-ever. And make sure her friends didn't. I did my fair share of babysitting drunk friends from getting messed with in my younger years. Even at a work event- one guy got mouthy w/me because I was taking my drunk friend upstairs even though she wanted to stay and party- he said I should go up since she obviously wanted to stay and have a good time....if I had-he would have easily taken her to his room and she would have had to live w/that. He was a slime ball...needless to say I ignored him. Parents- teach your daughters to avoid dangerous places and people, have them read "The Gift of Fear" when they hit teenage years- teach them safety precautions if/when in precarious situations, teach them that drinking can lower their inhibition to do things they may not want to do, and puts them at risk. Teach them that how they dress DOES matter and is ok but that and can and will attract wanted and unwanted attention and how to handle that and stay safe. There is no blaming victim going on by teaching our children and young ones to protect themselves, and teaching our children to respect others and about consent.

We as generations go by keep the cycle going -WE are at fault (general) - WE have to make changes for them.

bananaseedo's picture

OH but of course!!! I agree 100pct- which is WHY I mentioned teaching our sons as well about consent, respect of eachother, legalities, . I have and DO preach that to my sons at every turn. I was just referring and spent more 'ink' on the drink thing w/girls because it's happened to soooo many and it's heartbreaking that we DO have to teach these things to them. The REALITY is that it's going to take a LONG LONG time to change the way things are, this movement is just the beginning, tip of the iceberg if you will-so until it DOES swing things to a balance, we have to keep teaching our daughters and girls and children how to protect themselves. I gave the protection speech to my sons in regards to outsiders since they were early enough to remember....people molest boys also.