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The manipulation will never stop...

Heathcat's picture

Trying to be supportive and the voice of reason without becoming involved or emotionally invested is close to impossible, but it's what I try to do. My SO's ex is very ill. Very manipulative, GU syndrome to the nth degree, tries to alienate the kids (girls 5 & 11) at every turn...the usual gamut of horrible parenting tales many express here.

SO is definitely unaccustomed to standing up for himself in a healthy rational way...definitely has some real damage from this relationship where he was verbally and emotionally abused and played the role of doormat for years. Finally with CO visitation (thanks to my encouragement to take her to court), we've been doing the every Wednesday/every other weekend thing since March.

Most recently, the elder daughter was invited to go to Puerto Rico with my SO's family; her aunt, uncle, cousin and grandmother are planning the trip and will pay her way; very fun for her and nice that she is able to go as neither us nor the ex could do a trip like that at this point. This is taking place over my SO's visitation weekend, but also runs 2 days into next week when she has custody.

SO is a couple of weeks behind in CS, and the ex is now not letting SD11 go on the family trip unless SO pays all and is current. He is freaking because he doesn't want to be the reason his kid doesn't get to go on this trip. Unfortunately what he fails to see is that he ISN'T the reason; the ex is. The past due CS has absolutely nothing to do with this trip; she is simply trying to make SO the bad guy and also try to have some control over him, which she has had very little of since I came into the picture.

I will not get in the middle of this latest manipulation, however, his unfamiliarity with setting boundaries has been a real point of contention in our relationship. He doesn't have a clear understanding of what strict boundaries are, how to set them, and how to maintain them. This has resulted in off the charts verbally abusive behavior from the ex directed at SO AND myself on many occasions. the main thing I give input or an opinion on is whether he is enforcing those boundaries and what the consequesnces are for our lives and our relationship.

I strongly feel that to beg borrow or steal to get the CS caught up for SD11 to take this trip would be disasterous; it would send the message that his lack of paying was a choice, not due to actual financial hardship (he pays his CS, not me. If work is slow, he has to figure it out or fall behind for a couple of weeks until more comes in), and this manipulative behavior by the ex would only get worse, because he'd be proving to her that it works.

What are your thoughts on how he should handle this (and for me, on how to have an opinion but not to the point of seeming like I'm not on his side)?
for what it's worth, my thoughts are that he should get caught up on CS as soon as possible, state very clearly to the ex that the back CS has absolutely nothing to do with this trip and that he will not participate in manipulation, especially that which involves either child. And if the ex still says no, so be it; SD11 will be upset but it's not the end of the world, and getting caught up for the purposes of this trip would only make the manipulation and abuse going forward worse, so what would be gained from it other than an 11yo getting to go to PR...(I have not shared most of my thoughts above with him.)

ksmom14's picture

If the trip spills over onto BM's days with SD, then it's her right to say no to the trip (on those days) for whatever reason she wants. Yea it sucks, but that's her choice. She's being accommodating by allowing the trip on her days, if she wants to ruin it for SD because she wants $$, then that's her prerogative.

Will this set a precedence in the future for how extra accommodations like this will be handled if CS isn't paid up? sure, probably so. But your DH shouldn't be behind on his CS in the first place. I can understand that some careers have varying income, but he should also know that and have some sort of emergency/backup fund to help deal with the low income times.

Heathcat's picture

I agree on both points; it's her right to say no, and he needs to get current on CS (which he is doing, he was further behind). It's just sad that SD11 was allowed to go until BM thought of this latest manipulation and rescinded permission, and it will all be blamed on DH as part of the ongoing PAS. Or just as bad, DH will give in to this manipulation, find a way to back pay, and the precedent will be set that it's ok to use your kids as a tool to manipulate.

Heathcat's picture

To be clear; Dad is NOT whining about the child support. He is doing all he can to make the payments, and 2 weeks arrears is not exactly deadbeat dad material. The point is exactly that BM is taking away her child's opportunity at a memorable vacation with family for adult matters that the child has no control over because she wants to be a spiteful b*tch and make it seem like DH is a horrible father and the reason she is not going. To withhold permission unless back pay is received benefits no one.

Snowflake's picture

Even if you pay it, she can still say no. There s no guarantee of anything.

If your sd doesnt get to go, you tell her the truth. You didn't have he money and are catching up on child support. Trust me that is the reason that BM s going to tell her she couldn't go.

And that BM is punishing her because she thinks sd has a deadbeat dad. That it's untrue, but you really don't have the money.

Heathcat's picture

Good point..there is no guarantee...which led me to wonder for a hot second...what if we said "ok, you'll have your money in the next deposit"..which wouldn't be until after SD leaves for PR...too late for her to say no when the balance is not in her lockbox. Not how I would normally play it, and I'm guessing there would be some horrible repercussion for us or SD11 when she came home, but it was a brief and fun daydream imagining her reaction upon learning she'd been played right back.

Heathcat's picture

you've twice commented on this so I feel compelled to correct you; there is no manipulation on our part. my above comment was clearly stated to be a daydream of how it would feel to play her as she is us...or more accurately, as she is playing her child.

notarelative's picture

Dad needs to tell SD that it is not his trip. Family has asked her to go and is paying for the trip. The trip overlaps both his and BM's custody time. He has agreed to let her go on his custody time. BM has not.

If child mentions CS he should not discuss it with her. He should tell her that CS is an adult issue. He should emphasise he will allow her to go on his days, that BM is not allowing on her days, that BM is not letting her go with the aunt and grandmother. Other than allowing the trip on his custody time he has nothing to do with the trip.

Aunt, Uncle, Grandmother need to secure permission for child to go on BM's custody days from BM. DH should have nothing to do with securing permission for BM's custody days.

Ignore the blackmail. Catch up on CS and try not to go behind again.

Maxwell09's picture

I can see why BM is upset. If your DH's family can help pay for skid to go on a vacation, I'm sure she is wondering why he can't get them to pay for his back-child support too. It's part of their entitled mentality. Everyone should be making sure SHE gets hers before anyone else gets theirs and that includes her own children. It's sad but there isn't anything you can do to change her ways. I think your DH should get caught up on child support because that is a separate but still important issue he needs to resolve. I do think you are placing a lot of the blame on BM because she manipulates but your DH is also to blame. He can make it stop whenever he decides he's had enough.

What I would do: Have your DH email BM
BM,
I am aware that I am behind on child support by ---.-- amount which I will pay current as soon as I am financial able to do so; however, that will not be before SD's trip to Puerto Rico with my family. If you do not let SD to go on the trip, that is your parental right as it falls on two of your custody days, but I will not pay you to let her go like you want me to do. If you decide to let her go like you previously agreed, then Aunt Jane and Grandma will need a notarized permission to leave the country before they head to the airport.

Then I would sit SD down and tell her the truth. "SD, this trip falls on two of your mother's days so you have to have her permission to go. I know your mom originally said you can go but she has changed her mind because I owe her child support money that I would have already paid her if I could. I already told her I do not have the money and can't come up with it by the time of the trip. I am sorry you will not be able to go unless your mom will change her mind but that it between you and her.

I am one of those Step-talkers that think the skids, after a certain age, should be clued into some of the shenanigans that goes on as long as can be age appropriate. She is ten and if she can go out of the country then she can understand the basic concepts of child support and blackmail.

Aeron's picture

So his family - his parents and siblings should pay his back child support before they take the kid on a trip? When the dad isn't going on the trip? They want to spend time with their grandkid/neice but I don't imagine that hearing the scenario is going to cause them to say, oh well, here's the cash for her portion of the trip, get caught up.... Dad isn't paying for her to go. His family isn't paying for him to go. So I, not sure how you can make this statement and act like its rational....

Rags's picture

The primary issue with this persptecive IMHO is the courts are overwhelmingly clear that there is no corelation between an NCP getting their CO's visitation time with their children and the payment of CS.

CS payment status and visitation are not related. Even our flawed family law system run by the bottom 10%er morons of the legal profession understand that.

Heathcat's picture

I appreciate the email and discussion templates - well worded, to the point..thanks Maxwell09 Smile

Rags's picture

Blackmail is exactly what it is and why even our screwed up family court sistem clearly separates CS payment status from visitation. Even an NCP in arrears cannot legally be denied by the CP that is owed the CS.

In this case the NCP needs to jump on the CP with both feet in court. SOON!!!

And... clueing in the SKid to the facts in an age appropriate manner is never a bad thing. In fact, IMHO, it should be what any responsible parent in a blended family situation should do. Facts are neither good nor bad. They are merely facts. The behaviors that generate the facts may be good, or may be bad, but it is hte behaviors that are critical. Kids need to know.

IMHO of course.

Heathcat's picture

anotherstep2 is completely right; a judge would never ask for the burden of CS be placed on a NCP's spouse or extended family. Their financial position is none of BM's business, DH's business, nor the court's business. The vacation is a gift to SD11, and entirely unrelated to his CS order.

Heathcat's picture

Understand that this trip is by no means a favor to BM, DH, or DH's family. BM LOVES when they take the kids off her hands and she jumps at any invitation from his family to do so...sleepovers with grandma, shopping trips, never says no, unless she senses some opportunity to control the lives of others, such as this. In fact, I just got an IM that grandma has the SKids right now at the mall. DH's family and DH and myself have had more days out of the month with the SKids than BM has as the CP; if she wasn't more than ok with it, she wouldn't allow it regularly. DH is not going to PR and would be more than happy to keep his DD11 with him for his scheduled weekend..he misses his kids and looks forward to their weekends; but he also knows what a great invitation/opportunity it is for her to go on a trip with family - he is putting HER first in giving his permission for her to be gone during his weekend. (PS we will still have the SD5 so it's not like we get a child-free weekend out of it). DH's family invited her to go and pay for all related expenses (airfare, food, all of it); this is not something we ourselves can do, nor could BM. This does NOT mean DH's family should pay for any portion or CS or back pay just because they have the money to take her on this trip, and he will pay HIS CS with HIS money when he gets it; it is a priority to be caught up. And no, he doesn't miss payments regularly.

Heathcat's picture

please reread my above post - it is clear that I have no intention of lying and promising the money and not paying it. I called that a "daydream", ok? Ok.

Rags's picture

Just another example of the financial consequences of prostitution on the installment plan that so many NCPs get stuck with it seems.

Though I am a CSP (married to the CP in our blended family adventure) I recognize that far more often than not the NCP gets the major short end of the stick in Custody/Visitation/Support situations.

In this case, with the information available, it appears that the BM is being manipulative and holding the kid hostage.

Even my Skid's nearly completely detestable SpermClan allowed us to take him on international trips that coincided with some of their visitation time. We worked with them to give them that time during a later visitation. We even would occassionally pay their share of visitation travel for SS to visit SpermLand when they were in an extended financial bind and had refused multiple visitations in a row due to the cost of travel.

However, whe they got toxic, we got brutal. If they were reasonable and worked with us, we worked with them. If they were not reasonable..... }:) }:) }:) }:) We brought the pain.

twoviewpoints's picture

BM may have been more agreeable if Grandma had contacted her directly.

Two days of BM's time. Transport from airport or arrangements for the return of child. All on BM. The direct info of trip, who is going, who is paying, chance for BM to address any concerns... all should be directed between grandparent and CP. Dad already agreed to give up his weekend and gave his consent to trip. His part of necessity of involvement was finished.

Grandma would have had BM's approval and consent or simply told no by BM. All the b*tching, screaming and going off with demands to Dad would have been avoided. See, BM's time is BM's time and Dad shouldn't be in the middle of it.

As a side note...I can't blame BM for being annoyed with Dad for having a 'I'll get around to CS eventually ' attitude. BM has kid bills to pay, food to buy, school registration, supplies, activity fees blah blah . I highly doubt CO states Dad can pay weekly/monthly/whatever CS hen he manages to gather up the money. If his work doesn't pay enough on a regular routine basis to pay his obligation he needs to find a second job.

Heathcat's picture

seems to be quite a bit of reading between the lines here so let me clarify; DH is not in direct contact with BM. Ever. She made that impossible from the beginning and the court recognized this and ordered her to email us only. He was not making any arrangements about this trip with BM; it was between his family, and her and SD11. DH's family lives locally and BM would not be imposed upon in anyway. Trip to and from the airport? Laughable. Everything was arranged, as it always is, to put zero burden on her whatsoever. And, BM agreed SD11 could go, until she decided to use this as an opportunity to try to get control over DH paying CS. Yes he should, and will be up to date. He (nor I for that matter) have a "I'll get around to CS eventually attitude". But putting a child in the middle and denying her this trip over two weeks of CS is very f-ed up parenting from most points of view.

Disneyfan's picture

So why doesn't he just pay the money that he owes? :? :?

If the ultimate goal is for the child to go on a great vacation with her family, why does it matter if mom "wins"?

Honestly I think both parents are being asses. Dad knows damn well he has to pay CS. Kids don't stop needing food, electricity....just because he has issues at work. It's his responsibility to have a plan B and C in place when this occurs.

BM using her kid as leverage, is just as bad as dad not having a back up plan in place.

Both parents need to cut out the foolishness before the child has to pay the price for their stupidity.

If this were my family trying to take the kid on a trip, one of us would have just paid the back CS, then just told dad to pay us back later.

Oldmom's picture

Does he need to get caught up in CS, yes.

Was the child ever really going to be able to go, NO

Even if he paid everything he owes before the trip there would be another reason or hoop she would want him o jump. This isn't about money, or the kid. This is control. Period.

Heathcat's picture

in the first quote, that wasn't my response - you quoted someone else.

My daydream was indeed a daydream..and not some indirect request for "permission" to do this, period, as I stated. If you can't take my statement and explanation of them at face value, not my problem.

DH does NOT communicate withy BM directly. His family made this request of BM. She and DH's sister-in-law remain friendly so the ask came from her. This was not only a good idea, but the only option when dealing with BM.

and

again, for the fourth time, yes, it was a daydream. You're clearly hung up on this so not having an opinion is understandable.

Heathcat's picture

I agree with sueu2; As a younger sibling myself I partially agree SD5 should go; but I totally get why she isn't, and when she is older and her sister is out of the house she'll be getting to do family stuff on her own too, or even when she is younger and SD11 will be the one staying home.

Heathcat's picture

Update: Got a text yesterday from BM (we absolutely do not speak, she has only sent me hate messages from the beginning of time and has no need to talk to me) "Tell [DH] to pay my brother the money". Her brother? The payments are made through DOR, so lord only knows what that was about. And, in-laws are paying the damn back support do SD11 can go on the trip. No, it will never end.

Oldmom's picture

VERY IMPORTANT!
In-laws must pay through DOR or it will not be considered CS, it will be a gift and he will still owe the money. Do NOT let the in laws give any money directly to her or her brother.

DOR will send the money to her and she can pay her brother.

Then wait for the next demand.

Heathcat's picture

Thanks OldMom, very true - the inlaws are giving DH the $$ and he is depositing to the DOR account tomorrow. It's laughable BM said to pay her brother...that would never happen because just as you said, it wouldn't count toward what he owed.

Rags's picture

ABSOLUTELY THIS^^^^^^ Oldmom nailed it.

Pay only through the official CSE process in your state and let BM whine and cry if she has herself in a sitiuation where she wants the money sooner.

Interestingly we were able to leverage this to a notable courtroom advantage during one of our battles with my Skid's SpermClan. The SpermIdiot never paid a penny of his CS obligation for any of his 4 out-of-wedlock spawn by three different baby mamas. SpermGrandHag and SpermGrandPOS always paid the CS obligations of their useless waste of skin son.

We were able to subpoena the CSE payment records and bring to the court's attention that it was not the SpermIdiot who was paying his CS obligations but his parents. Then we motioned to have the SpermGrandParent's income added to the SpermIdiot's for CS calculation purposes. }:) }:) }:) They just about stroked out over that move. Hearing them whine about "What difference does it make who pays it?" in front of the Judge was a classic and I replay it in my mental movie occassionally when the shallow and polluted end of my Skid's gene pool raises their ugly heads out from under the slime covered rock they residue under at the bottom of the pond of effluent their gene pool is.

So for sure pay only through official channels, DH should pay it himself out of his own accounts, and let BW wallow in the excerement of her own making.

If the IL's want to help I would advise that they give the money to DH and HE deposit with DOR. You don'w want to go through what my Skid's SpermClan has to squirm through in a similar situation.