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Listening skills, tantrums and lack of discipline:

jacobturner's picture

My SO has a 5 year old daughter that at times is brilliant, considerate and an amazing girl. At other times she can be impossible to get through to, to calm down and to get to do anything other than what she wants. I've seen tantrums, I've seen kids misbehave to try to get what they want but this is beyond the norm. An hour straight screaming, yelling, crying and hitting when all we wanted was the word "please." Every word in the book except for please. Listening skills are nonexistent and I believe some of the problem stems from a lack of fear for discipline. I've only been in the picture 8 months and usually she will respond positively on the rare occasion I get involved. (I don't want to overstep any bounds so tend to take a back seat) Sometimes my SO will say "If you don't ______ you will not get ______ toy for he rest of the night." After this doesn't work it is repeated 5 times, and after this many attempts then takes ______ toy away and her daughter goes into a tantrum, screaming/crying, hitting or whatever the tantrum of the day is. My concern is that after a while my SO gets tired of hearing it and is worn out from work so will offer the _____ toy back if she just calms down first. I feel like this is a precedent that was set long before me being around that has taught her that if she's loud enough she gets her way. Does anyone have any recommendations for how I can approach this situation?

Thanks in advance.

moeilijk's picture

If you are really uninvolved, stay that way.

In general, avoid starting a conflict. Don't do something to hurt her to teach her a lesson, like taking away toys or hitting her or giving everyone but her a big princess doll. That's just starting a fight with a kid, which you will win by being bigger and scarier. Conflicts are more useful for teaching the child how to control herself and to understand her feelings and maybe even herself.

If you are experiencing these tantrums when you are alone with her, they are really easy to handle, it just takes time and a bit of common sense. First of all, you cannot control what others do - so if she doesn't want to say please, or eat her peas, or put her shoes on, you have to have a plan to deal with that other than a battle of wills, because that you will always lose. In the situations where you are wanting compliance, you need to have your discipline strategy explained and ready at all times. In my home, we do time-outs. If my DD3.5 behaves in a way that is not allowed, I tell her what she is doing and that it is not allowed. If she does it again, I tell her that she is doing xyz and that is not allowed, and if it happens again she will have to go to her room for 3 minutes. If it happens again, I say, "DD, I have to ask you to go to your room. You did xyz and that's not allowed. I will come and talk to you in 3 minutes."

I used to just physically put her in her room, but the day came that she made a really angry 'game' out of coming out and running around. It got to be a bad scene, so I had to clarify for myself that her going to her room is me expecting her to show self-control. And I can't expect that from her if I lose it on her myself.

After 3 minutes, I ask if she's ready to talk (if not, I come back after 3 more minutes). Then I tell her what she did, explain it's not allowed, explain why if she asks, and tell her she must apologize. Then we hug, kiss and start fresh. If I was really angry and I'm not calm myself after 3 minutes, I leave her there longer. I must be in control of myself in order to teach her how to control herself.

The other kind of tantrum when she wants to control you. Like, she wants you to buy something or to give her something or do something for her. And you say no. In this situation, the only thing that will put a stop to tantrums is if no means no. It can get bad, crying and screaming and breath-withholding and kicking, etc... but you set limits, because you're in charge. In my case, as long as there is no hitting/kicking, she can scream forever. I sit near her, when she speaks to me I acknowledge her, "Mmmm-mmmm." If there's a quieter moment, I'll say, "I can see you're really angry. It's ok to be angry. When you're ready to feel better, I can help you calm down." If she asks for whatever it was that set her off, I always respond, gently, "No."

When she is ready to calm down, I make a couple of suggestions, like breathing deeply a few times, sitting on my lap and resting for a few minutes. Then once things are approaching normal, a snack and a glass of water. It's exhausting, battling emotions like that!

It could be that you just want her to get her shoes on so you can get out the door, and she refuses. You can start by making it fun (who will be first, for example, or offering to help) but if it is clearly heading towards confrontation, you can say "I've asked you 3 times now to put your shoes on. I'm going to count to three, and if you haven't got your shoes on yet, then you won't be able to walk, I'll have to carry you to wherever."

In my case, my kid is usually motivated by enjoying the independence of doing things herself.

There are times where it seems the cycle of bad behaviour is impossible to interrupt, but it is. Find something you can turn positive, and focus your attention there. PM me if you'd like to talk about something specific where another perspective might help.

secret's picture

It could be that you just want her to get her shoes on so you can get out the door, and she refuses. You can start by making it fun (who will be first, for example, or offering to help) but if it is clearly heading towards confrontation, you can say "I've asked you 3 times now to put your shoes on. I'm going to count to three, and if you haven't got your shoes on yet, then you won't be able to walk, I'll have to carry you to wherever."

In my case, my kid is usually motivated by enjoying the independence of doing things herself.

LOL - in my case, that's what the kids wanted... to be carried... so I had to tell them "if you haven't got your shoes on, we're not going."

secret's picture

She's 5. Perfectly able to understand words and their meaning.

She's already learned a few things:

1) throwing a tantrum gets her what she wants
2) throwing a tantrum is an acceptable method of unleashing negative emotions

First of all - a child who throws a tantrum has not been taught to express their negative emotions appropriately. There is nothing "right" about kicking and screaming and crying and hitting and all the other unpleasant things that come along with a tantrum - it's simply not acceptable.

When my kids used to start throwing a tantrum, that became the behavior to address - because until they are taught how to express themselves appropriately, they will keep having tantrums. Once the tantrum was dealt with, we'd circle back to the issue causing the tantrum to begin with.

It is never appropriate to kick and scream because you don't get what you want - however the kid doesn't quite understand the distinction quite yet about what happens when they ask for a toy and end up in their room screaming. They ask for candy, you say no, kid throws tantrum, kid gets punished. In the child's mind, they might consider they've been punished for asking for candy...when really, they're being punished for the tantrum behavior... and if you relent and cave to the child's tantrum, not only have you incidentally taught the child that throwing a tantrum is ok, but you have failed to teach patience, appreciation, and basic courtesy.

A good time to talk about tantrum behavior is when the child asks for something reasonable, that you can give - you can recognize the good behaviors (Thank you for asking so nicely) and if you want to say no, you should evaluate WHY you are saying no and whether there is room for a yes... if there is, you can say "Not Right Now, but you can after dinner" and use that to recognize the lack of negative behavior BEFORE the tantrum hits. Cut them off at the pass....acknowledge their frustration, recognize the behaviors, and re-direct.

kid: can i have candy
you: not right now. You can have a piece after dinner, though.
kid: but I want it right now!
you: I know you do, but you can have a piece after dinner. Thank you SOOOOO much for not screaming and crying - now we can have a lot of fun with this boardgame while we wait for dinner!!

If kid still has a tantrum, you address the tantrum.
If kid doesn't have a tantrum, you address the good behaviors.

You should always evaluate whether a No is warranted.... if the kid asks for something reasonable (Can we go to the park?), but you don't feel like it just because you don't feel like it (hey, it happens! lol) then an alternative answer is better than a No.

-After we have lunch, we can go.
-When your dad gets home, we can go.

If you really can't go because you have other things to do, then explaining other things need to get done is better than No.

-we can't right now, we have to go get groceries.

If they ask again after groceries, go back to evaluating whether a no is warranted, or if you just don't feel like a yes...

And you NEVER NEVER NEVER go back on a No.... so use it sparingly.

Tantrums are not an acceptable expression of emotion. Kids who are allowed to have a tantrum grow up to be teenagers who still throw tantrums. Address it - I'm hard pressed to find any acceptable reason that indicate that screaming at someone, kicking someone or hitting someone are acceptable methods of expressing emotion at any age. Crying? Go for it, I'll console you... but the rest - shut it down.

Solidshadow7's picture

We addressed tantrums by putting the kid in a timeout chair, and keeping him there until he's done, no matter what. No matter how long it takes. Make sure you have a lot of time on your hands for this one.

At first we tried the normal thing, what they tell you to do, you know one minute per year of age but it was totally useless. We did what you are supposed to do, okay its been 4 minutes are you calm, or its been 4 minutes and you're somewhat calm, or you've finally stopped screaming at the top of your lungs for 4 minutes, your upset but youre not hitting and screaming okay you can come out now. We did that stuff for months and months with no improvements. SS would scream earsplittingly until both of our ears were ringing and we couldn't hear anything. I started carrying earplugs and popping them in whenever it was time to say no. He punched, he kicked, he hit walls, knocked chairs over, punched himself in the face. I mean neighbors coming over and telling us to shut our kid up, teenagers chanting that we were bad parents at us when tantruming child was carried from public area to someplace quieter. We thought we were going to have a probably special needs and a seriously difficult child on her hands.

Then we switched to- you go in time out until you've been normal and sweet for 4 minutes. Not guffawing, not only a few screams, not hysterically crying that your sorry and you will be good, but calm and cool as a cucumber. You will be in this time out chair until you have accepted that sitting in this chair, bored, and not having gotten what you wanted is your lot in life-- and you are completely at peace with it.
He literally screamed for 4 hours the first time, (Yes, for 4 hours, we sat their with our ear plugs in and played cards for 4 hours) 3 hours the second time, 1 hour the third time, then 10 minutes, and then he simply stopped. Hasn't had a tantrum in over a month when they used to be a daily occurence. He did have to spend the better part of 3 days in time out over the course of a week, but it put a stop to nearly a YEAR of being afraid to do anything because SS was going to flip out and bruise us or himself, probably in public. Now he just growls into his hands quietly when he wants to have a tantrum, sometimes he cries, but he does nothing further.