Thanks so much for the clear, straight answers. I tried to fit 20 years  of rubbish in a few alineas and you still got it.

 I found the item on disengaging, very appealing and although I never heard of it before, its is what I practice with OSD and it works well for everyone. DH and daughther (18) have their own contacts and sometimes, when I feel like it, I join, other times I dont. didn't know about if but yes, feels all right.

About the YSD, what happened with the party: YSD talked about it with DH AFTER their therapy (she knows it will be a thing and brings it up when DH is off guard) ; she put him on the spot with: 'my sorority house has a family thing and I can only invite 4 people, I want to invite you, BM, OSD and daugter. how about it?'. DH feels he can only say "yes" and that's it. She has me out of the picture.

So DH said its was ok, YSD said that maybe I could join later and DH said I might not like that (he blames himself for saying that). YSD was vague about the whole thinbg.  DH could nog tell me anything, time, program, who woudl be there etc.  he tried calling YSD and apping her but no reaction. 

Eventually the invite came by mail and it turns out there is no "4 people only"  rule at all and I just did not receive an invite. I feel YSD played DH because she never answered her phone of app (while glued to her phone) so yeah, I may be paranoid but I feel played somehow.

What do you think, am I parnoid or not? Not that I have any intention to go so that's water under the bridge and is does nog realy bother me. 

What really does bother me is the relationship with DH and my own daughter.

DH: what to do? Should I accept him going with BM because the rule was 4? So BM and dad are in? How do you think about that? External factors are brought up as the cause that I will not be invited. I think DH should have said 'I'm nog coming" but he feels YSD does not make the rules and it makes sense she invites BM and him. I feel that since BM is a real piece of work and I brought YSD up basically I feel left out. More so because nothing is said and it is assumed this is normal and ok. My husband is very cold to me now and thinks I'm paranoid, YSD is nog manipulative at all.. What do you think?

And yes, my biggest fear is that they put my daughter against me I trust my daughter this will not happen but I don't want her in the position that I have to explain myself constantly. Badmouthing is more like that I say ; ' I did nog get an invite to YSD's party"  like yesterday. I cannot completely get the bitterness out of my voice, so hard. How do you do that.

And my husband bringing up SD's  as conversational topics with friends, pff, I smile a bit an keep quiet. DH is really angry with me now.

Oh yeah, exorcism has crossed my mind more then once, how on earth do we get YSD to be a little less blind to BM. Really don't know. Current therapist does nog say useful things, only acknowlegde YSD in her ' I have a loving mother and DH should act normal to BM" . On this DH and I agree by the way but no idea how to get her moving in another direction.

Haha, radiance is the best revenge yeah, I might just take on that advice! It worked before...

Anyway, I see in all your answers that you are clear on DH not attending any sort of gathering without me? Here in the Netherlands there seems to absolute consensus that it is good voor children to have both their parents together at events and it's irrelevant if I'm there. So here I get te opposite advice.

It pisses me of in the case of BM who pulled every trick in the book to screw DH, children and me arount. She definitiely has some personality disorder (even OSD is convinced of that) and being in her presence gives you the chills. Well, I can handle her, she's just like my mother and I know when to hmmm in time. Never say anything substantial at all.

What I would like to know: do you really think DH should not go without me - although this is a parents ands siblings only thing as organised by her sorority house?

And do you have any tips how YSD can get out of her denial where BM is concerned. I know it's terrible to have an unloving mother but to stay in her web is not a nice thing, especially when the consequence is almoast no contact with DH and us (me, our daugher) because her mother only stimulates contact wiht people who are under her spell -boyfriends, OSD when possible -

Or do you say, let it go?

Thanks for the advice, I told DH that I'm upset about YSD not inviting me and even more upset about him accepting. Okay, he sees it's nog really nice but still goes.

He resists the idea that this is manipulation as we have endured for 10 years form BM, 5 years OSD and now this is the third wave and that I can no longer take that. Especially since I used to have a real bond with YSD.  DH does not agree with the manipulation thing either and finds I'm making problems where they are not 

Furthermore he invites her over for dinner tomorrow! What the...

S

Thanks all, YSD could not come yesterday but will be here tonight. I'm gonna be the polite humming about nothing person. I think you call it greyrocking? Fabulous word.

DH and I are in a complete deadlock now. 

I feel we made it through 20 years of marriage because he could see the manipulating ex, did not downplay nor deny and removed every piece of barb she had in him. So yeah, I sort of expected that the SD's could also see their BM for the psychopath toxic drama creating person she is. Using her own children to get to DH and me. I know now that this was wishful thinking of course. I was reasoning from my own situation; I went no contact with my own mother at about 18 (as did my brother later on, my sister kept in touch a little bit) best decision in my life. I now have an ok relationship with my family, it's all painful bagage but it's not drama or anything.

OSD is on and of in denial and I saved myself by disengaging. Working well there.

And now YSD starting the shit all over. DH sees it all until the point where I say: YSD is manipulating you. He denies it firmly and then comes the gaslighting: It's my past situation with my mother, my distrust in people etc. My answer is there is only one person I don't trust and that is how BM working on SD's. Next he sort of agrees again. No trust issues on my part at all with friends, family, work at all and so he knows.

It's my disspointment that after 20 years of seeing right through BM, OSD that he does not  see it now with YSD. 

For me the solution can be tot disengage from YSD, painful but good. Only at this point I cannot live with my DH not accepting that he's being worked by YSD.

And is that nog a too small thing to leave? 

Major issue is what you all point out and I dare not to think of: my own daughter: I haven't figured out how to deal with the situation. You adviced to sit down with her and talk. Probably the best but pfff, hard, what to say exactly...

Other issue for me is that I'm really on my own here where it comes to BM and DH together at events. Thanks for your support here. Ik have a therapist btw.

It's hard to find a therapist who knows how to deal with the toxic stuff: personality disorders seem to be denied or dealt with in a rational manner: you dus make good appointments about everything blabla. Totally overlooking the manipulation with mean intentions. My therapist is good with that but I've met plenty of others who cannot imagine the shit stuff some people are capable of.

The relationship therapist YSD and DH go to is nog bringing toxic behaviour into the equation, it seems not to exist for her. Which keeps the denial form YSD firmly in place.

so yeah, any idea how to find someone who knows about toxic, step, peronality disorder issues?

DH an I are at: if we start talking now the conclusion Will be divorce. So we're postponing. 

And thanks for all the support above all. I would have been completely lost the last few weeks wtihout you all.

... and for tonight I'm gonna use the phonecall escape as I read here in the forum . Gives me some breathing room to know that I Will be 'called' at a certain time

Twice posted 

YSD came to dinner yesterday. She asked about my father (who had a stroke last weekend, serious hospital) which was nice and after some chatting started to talk about stuff that she was dealing with.

She was clearly stressed and started crying soon and kept on crying during most of the evening. It turned out she was in close contact again with her mother again. BM is trying to keep inheritance money for SD's away for herself. On this issue both SD's  were talking with BM under guidance of some sort of coach (as chosen by BM, earlier 'moderators'  were fired as soon as they were showing an interest in SD's). YSD said they had 2 conversations and that BM was now really keeping her promises etc.... My heart sank in my shoes (do you say it like that in english?) BM succeeded again in pulling the SD's into her web. YSD clearly beleiving this time it will all be different.

It was sad to see her hopes that her mother has changed this time and especially how far YSD went on that:

YSD had decided to  move back in BM's house! BM promised to announce when she would be home (she's living partly abroad) as to not surprise YSD. YSD went out of her way to explain to us that this was all very well thought over etc.  It is just back to the old situation again. Completely under her mothers' spell. She said it was difficult to tell us this.

I kept quiet most of the evening - as did DH - and mumbled : there's a lot going on in your life right now.

DH said: BM promises but now you have to see how it works out in practice...

And we were so relieved when YSD left her mothers' house 4 years ago. Now she's back in. It explains a lot about the last few months when she has hardly any contact with us and tells DH that her mother is a really loving, well meaning person. AAAAhhh

I went to bed and let them talk a bit more.

DH asked me what I thougt and I said: well we're back where we were 4 years ago, she's completely in her mothers' web.

DH said he thougt this was a very negative reaction. He is 'dissappointed'  that she's moving back in but feels YSD is in control  concerning her mother. I have the opposite idea on that, clearly. So we had a fight - again. 

I asked if he brought up the invitation of the sorority house party and he said yes And that YSD really wanted to invite me. I said I did not receive an invite and then he told me the 4 people only rule was still in place so she asked BM. And DH said:

'Very good you did since BM will never forgive you when you don't!" to YSD. 

I couldn't believe my ears. DH thinks YSD is not back into the golden uterus womb at all, he thinks she's making good choices and I told him basicaly to f***k off.

Came back form work an he's nowhere to be seen. I've had it with him.

Feels like the end of our relationship at the moment and I'm very sad.

...you're right she's 24. YSD coming in crying and telling sad stories so that I feel sorry for her. Yes, I felt sorry for her during the evening. Not for the first time. And then it comes: something about her mother and I feel so played. It often takes a while before I realize this is a complete set up. The moving in with BM has already been decided quite sometime ago. She's only been thinking how to say it. She playes on our sympathy by making arguments on how difficult it is to find a house (she currently has one but hey,) all blabla. And if that's not enough the card is played that we're not nice enough about her mother so no criticizing. And I cannot be nice about the psychopath BM so I keep my mouth shut. Knowing once she's in the sphere of BM we will see nor hear anyting from YSD for months in a row. That's what's so painful.

When she leaves  - message delivered - we'll not see/hear so yeah, she's sitting here as if she's confiding in us, smooth talking (" oh yes, I' d love to invite you but..") etc. etc. And when she's gone a sick feeling in the stomach tells me something is not right here. 

I know it sounds petty "I'm angry because I'm not invited to the party" but that's not the issue, it's being played at, it's me opening up, being empathic towards here and feeling drained when she's gone and we do not get any sign of her. That's why I disengage and tell DH time and time I do not want her here.

The only thing I want is out of this s***t , I just cannot believe time and time again YSD is as scheming and plotting as her BM. YSD is not a mean person like her mother but she has learned her share of emotional blackmailing. 

Anyway, do you think full disengagement will save my marriage? I have the idea only if DH cooperates in nog inviting her here anymore, nor confront me with her stuff. It is sad she's in the 'BM golden uterus cultus' but not my problem and I do not want to here about it

When I went to bed I already notices I did not feel sorry for YSD anymore.

This morning I visited my therapist. I told him about the situation and he was very supportive:

He calls it 'colonisation' of the brain: BM colonises YSD's brain so that she seems not to be able to think for herself. I think that word describes it perfectly.

Furthermore he says it seems to have expanded to DH this time in a way that he does not see it clearly anymore. The 'it' is called suggestive power (from BH, through YSD directed at DH and me). I love this word as well because that is exactly what it is: suggestive power.

Therapist says that you have to be familiair with these kind of powers/personality disorders/dysfunction to even be able to see it. That's when I told him I get a lot of support from this site, people who are not familiar with it cannot really grasp the impact. So I'm really grateful for your life lines here, it got me through the last 2 weeks.

Therapist said he would give it some more time - I told him I wanted out of the relationship - since DH saw all this very clear before so he might come around. I will, but not forever. The recognition gave me strength to give it a chance, therapist thinks the moment of the party might (where he will be with BM) be the moment he can see what he's doing and come around.

Obviously he said: 'I would not go without my wife' so also very clear on the invitation topic.

Thanks everybody, I was in a bad place last week(s) and now feeling strong again. Let's see how it develops.

and that is the weirdest part; he's never done nor said anything like this in the past 20 years. We had our share of the emotional blackmail/manipulation which took him som time to see through but never has he given in and become part of the whole s''tty mess! And I feel now that he has, I cannot count om him. 

I told my therapist that I did not recognize my DH anymore and that gives me the creeps. Because him playing happy family and excluding me never happend in 20 years time the therapist said that must be terrible, feeling like the only sane person and still adviced me to give it some time if I could stand it because he thinks chances are DH comes to his senses.

My feeling is he's not going to see through it this time. That makes me said, I'm not very hopeful at the moment.

If not, I'm out. I feel very supported by you and my therapist whom I will see next week again.The manipulation of BM through SD's was only tolerable because we were in it together, there's nothing here for me when I'm alone in this.

That just crossed my mind. Another completely out of character incident happened last Sunday: DH and our daughter had a discussion and DH took a really werid point of view. Normally these discussions are fun and they come to some interesting point of view together.

Both DH and daugher are ' sweet souls' (as a Canadian friend of ours calls it, love the term), love literature, music, politics and both are open minded, free spirits. this time the discussion took on a nasty turn, never happened in 18 years time.

This time we both could not follow DH in his point of view at all, there was no argumentation but he hurt our daughter - the topic was personal for her. She was really upset - never is actually, very stable emotionally. Ik took her home instead of her taking the bus/train/bike and drank some tea just to calm her down a little. We both said we did not understand DH at alle, we did not recognize him like this, it was so out of character for him.

There was more lately - he's usually very sharp on how to bring complex topics on to an audience (his work) , I ask him for advice sometimes and last week he said 'O, what you have is pretty okay" . Huh?? this never happened before.

In general he's different in any aspect daily life. Like he's unattached or someting, do not know how te describe it. Emotional as well.

I'm now really worried something else is going on, like a TIA or maybe some age-related thing in his brain (runs in his family). Physicals is not something you do here in the Netherlands. Ik have no idea how to proceed. Get him to see a physician. But he's already blaming me for being paranoid. Hmm, any ideas?

Thanks, I'm going away for a few days, starting with the day of the party. I booked a room with dinner and breakfast for 3 nights for me and the dog. Long walks during the day will do me good anyway.

DH and I are on the same page where our situation is concerned: I said: 'we are afraid to talk because we both fear the consequences.'

DH agreed: ' I fear that we will no longer be together.' 

So we both know where we are. And yes, I told him how I feel, no room for misunderstandings and he does see it differently. It's all very very clear. I realized I was clutching at straws with the physic/brain/ out of character stuff. It does not even matter anymore.

I feel horrible in the stomach, I wish I felt something like relieve. That's the reason for postponing as well, I feel like some coward. so yeah, I will listen to my therapist who adviced me to give it some time - gave me and excuse.