Legally could we get into trouble for this???
Last weekend DH and I followed SS19 from SS19 work without SS19 knowing to see where he is living. Why did we do this?? DH has a 19 year old son who he has not seen in 5 years. Long story. According to New York law DH is required to pay child support to BM intill SS19 turns 21 unless SS19 is not living with BM. Well DH found out from younger SS14 that SS19 has been living with Four other guys and not BM but we did not know where. If we can prove SS19 is no longer living with BM DH will no longer be required to pay child support. The problem is SS19 figure out he was being followed. When DH and I turned around to get a picture of the house we noticed three people looking out the window at us video taping with their phones. It was dark so not sure SS19 knew it was us or not. My question is what we did was is Illegal? Following someone from work to their home then taking a picture of the house? If SS19 or BM can make problems for us they will. We WILL not be doing this again.
No, I don't think it's
No, I don't think it's illegal, and it would be hard to prove. But hire a PI to do it for you next time. He/she can get enough to take it back to court.
(Fellow New Yorker whose DH just paid his last CS payment!)
I second hiring a PI. Having
I second hiring a PI. Having evidence of SS going to another home for one night isn't going to hold up as him "living somewhere else". SS or BM could easily say "he's just visiting a friend". Then, BM and SS know you're watching them and will switch up their game.
Best to let a professional do this.
Check ypur state stalking
Check ypur state stalking laws, it may be illegal. What you did in my state, you could be charged with stalking. Sounds like your ss would/might file charges if he knew.
One incident like this doesn
One incident like this doesn't rise to the level of stalking:
http://www.hunter.cuny.edu/publicsafety/repository/files/New%20York%20St...
Which is why I said check
Which is why I said check state laws.
More than one instance of ss driving to another house and staying is going to be needed to prove he lives there.
Definately agree with having a PI collect the information - and agree with ESMOD below.
You would let BM collect two
You would let BM collect two years worth of illegal child support?
I would do a cost analysis.
I would do a cost analysis. Hiring a PI to collect the proof plus court costs - I can only assume this bm would fight this.
I see below you mentioned he hasn't seen the kid in 5 years - maybe there is some hope in the future? But if her husband follows through, chances will be far greater that any hope is lost.
So - depending on the difference in how much it would cost to stop/actual cs costs/vs hope to ever see child again. I know your husband paid 1k a month...but what does OP's husband pay? Would losing all hope be "worth it"?
Having had an SS be alienated
Having had an SS be alienated, I don't think that's true. You can't live your whole life giving in to BM because she might make it worse. It's better for the kid that he stands up for himself so the kid can see that he's not a doormat to walked on. The hope for the future comes when the kid can see that his father is someone to be respected, not to be used and manipulated.
I agree, they should weight the costs and benefits, but whether or not BM alienates more shouldn't be one of the costs. BM will alienate because it's a day ending in Y and nothing they do can change that. They should do what's best for them.
I live in the UK and had
I live in the UK and had someone stalk me online for 16 months. I tried to get the police involved but they weren't really interested. I don't know where you live but I think it is very unlikely that following someone once and taking photos could enable you to be prosecuted for stalking. The latter always has to show a pattern of harrassment that has gone on over a period of time.
I don't think following your
I don't think following your child one time to "check on their safety" ahem... would get you in trouble with the courts. Now, what it might do is put BM and SS on high alert that you are angling to stop CS. If you really want to go down that route.. and the fallout that will likely ensue... you should hire a professional investigator.
But, I would personally think hard. What will the fallout be if your husband catches his Ex in a "gotcha" move. What story will she spin to her kids about losing CS and that their dad is a deadbeat? Will the process drive a wedge between your DH and his son? Maybe BM is helping to fund his crash pad with some of the CS... so if it is yanked the kid is stuck living back at home.. and he doesn't want that? And... what will the friction of legal wranglings and discord with the older son have on how the younger son views his dad (and by association you)?
Your DH is looking at a couple more years of CS on the one hand.. but the cost of hiring an investigator... going to court is going to cost too... if you factor in the other possible issues above.. does it rise to a point where it is still well worth it to pursue?
Dont' get me wrong.. I am not happy being taken advantage of.. left in the dark etc.. But don't let the anger over the lies push your husband to do something that may not otherwise be in his best interest. I am not saying that your DH (and you) should have to "just take it"... but understanding how decks are stacked against a NCP.. and other family dynamics.. sometimes the fight is not worth it.
He hasn't seen the kid in
He hasn't seen the kid in FIVE years, the alienation is done. BM is the one breaking the law by collecting support that she's not entitled to.
My DH paid 1K a month for CS, so if he had paid two years more than he had to, it would have been 24K that BM got illegally.
That's a lot of money.. but
That's a lot of money.. but lawyers and the PI will cost money too. Plus the time and aggravation of being involved in a court battle. So.. knowing how much is at stake is important vs potential cost. I personally haven't been involved in family court beyond my simple "no contest" divorce 20 years ago that cost me $750.00.. and I imagine that has gone up. I have been involved in some legal matters though... and I know that those bills can get quite high.. we had an insurance claim that we actually paid out close to 100K$!! It was a significant matter and even then the cost benefit warranted pursuing it. But.. if I would have 12K of CS at stake over a 2 year period.. I could see a legal battle stretching out to cover most of that.. plus.. BM and SS can simply have him move home.. and "it was temporary.. staying with friends near a job".. "his legal address was still home"
I'm thinking about the alienation of the younger son really.. the one that let the cat out of the bag... sounds like he does still have "some" relationship there... and while BM may not need any excuse to alienate.. I have learned that with some of these Exes.. there can be increasing levels of crazy behavior when poked. My BM was relatively quiet if she got her money... but if he was ever a day late... "i'm going to court.. !!!" and the kids would get earfulls about their deadbeat father and cue the "single mother" social media posts. So.. yeah.. even when the older one aged out.. even when the kids were basically living with my inlaws or us.. it was "easier to pay CS" than wrangle in court with this crazy lady. (he did not have the CS obligation your DH did).
Child Support court in NY is
Child Support court in NY is separate from regular custody court appearances. They will go, pro se, and provide their evidence that he has moved out, and if it's good enough, they will stop child support. An attorney would be better, but it's not required, they make it very easy to file the forms for a court appearance. You go in there and fill them out by hand with the clerk's help, and they send them off with a court appearance date.
I think they'd be crazy to walk on eggshells around BM - she's going to alienate anyway, why kowtow to her. Of course there are risk and benefits to be considered, but BM alienating isn't one of them.
But.. if I would have 12K of
This is true. From my experience it will cost more than the two years of child support to stop paying the current support. Factor in lawyers, all their fees, and the four or more other people who get paid to handle any piece of coorespondance. Add to that "proving" that ss is no longer living with BM. A PI's services will be expensive! They will have to prove where he spends the majority of his time over a 30 day period, where he's getting his mail, if he's on a lease or rental agreement...etc. All of that "discovery" will be pricey. I would say to just keep paying or to negotiate with her for a "payout." Something like a lump sum of whatever amount rather than paying until he's 21.
That's got to be a frustrating situation especially since he doesn't even have a relationship with his son right now. I don't believe what you did was illegal but if ss figures out it was you, which he probably will since they have you on video he may file a harassment charge or get a restraining order. Sometimes it's better to let things be.
But remember, in NY, at 18
But remember, in NY, at 18 they are considered adults - so you really only have to prove the kid doesn't live there. You aren't cutting off CS to a minor, so it's not such an intensive process as if you were. It will NOT take years and thousands of dollars in attorney fees. It's not even a judge, it's a magistrate.
Where is Thinkthrice? They did it with her SS without an attorney.
I think it depends
Technically they have to be considered "self supporting" in NY to be officially emancipated. If the BM gets caught in the act, she may or may not be bold enough to put up a fight against emancipation.
In our case, OSS moved out at 19 and the Gir thought she would still collect CS for him through to 21. I had a fake social media account in which she was stupid enough to post that OSS had indeed moved out. At that time OSS had been completely PASed out for seven yrs.
Now that you know the address
Now that you know the address you could always do a bit of internet snooping on your own to see if SS is in fact on a lease. Hiring a PI can be costly, but what is the value worth for your DH? A PI would be able to present you with adequate proof that SS is in fact living at the residence and not just "visiting a friend" as I believe BM and SS would try to spin it, should you bring it up in court with just a grainy photo from one night.
Following your SS to see
Following your SS to see where he is living is not illegal. I'm not sure I would pay for a PI for this information. You could get these facts on your own. What else has SS14 told you? I'm sure he was telling you the truth.
You are free to drive where ever you want.
what IS so sad is family court has made so many people paranoid to do the most common of things.............remember all of your rights are intact until they are removed which is NOT common.
I agree. You are also free to
I agree. You are also free to take pictures of anyone's home without their permission, from the street. BM is the one breaking the law here.
I would say no, what you did
I would say no, what you did is not illegal. What I suggest is that you engage a Private Investigator to document, document, document then go to court to end CS due to the fraud both SS-19 and BM are perpetrating against DH and you.
Zero tolerance and full confrontation of this kind of crap is IMHO the only option.
Good luck.
OP, listen to tog and check
OP, listen to tog and check out the blog posts of ThinkThrice, another NY resident. Her H has three kids that were completely alienated by his ex, and they were able to document and successfully petition to have c.s. dropped on the eldest.
If you're like many SMs, you've probably had to make sacrifices and adjustments in order to meet your H's cs obligations. No way would I sit back and allow BM to screw us financially, especially after all the suffering she's inflicted. I'd find a savvy FEMALE P.I. (they can often blend in more easily), get the proof needed, and get that ADULT support ended. And if the family court doesn't order BM to repay your H, I'd sue BM in small claims court . After all, if the kids are already alienated, what more does your H have to lose? A judgement can come in handy, even if you never collect a cent.
During my DH's custody battle against Psychobi!chfromhell, his attorney asked that Psycho be ordered to repay DH for court appearances she no-showed. Each one cost us $2k, minimum. The judge issued a paltry $1100 judgement against her, which of course she never paid. In my state judgements are valid for ten years - but it's simple to request a renewal good for another ten. We used that judgement to keep Psycho away from us, and once YSD moved in with us, Psycho couldn't leave our state fast enough. We kept that judgement active for twenty years, and it was worth far more than $1100 to keep that crazy out of our lives.
Permanent alienation would be a bonus in my book
Judge me I don't care. The living hell that rotten Disrespectful stealing delinquent put us through I NEVER want to see him again. My greatest fear is older SS coming back. I would LOVE to nail that coffin shut Permanently.
You guys are doing the right
You guys are doing the right thing, don't listen to the naysayers. As I said, I live in NY, and if you can get enough evidence to prove he doesn't live there, they will stop support and it won't take years and thousands in attorney fees. Your DH can just go right to the Court Clerk in your town/city and file the papers and BM will be mailed a summons. You just have to have convincing proof that he doesn't live there, and if BM says otherwise, she'll be committing perjury. An alienating BM is gonna alienate, so who cares about that.
My SS21 was alienated for years as well, and he did come back, but he wasn't such an awful kid and my DH is good at setting boundaries.
Hopefully thinkthrice will weigh in because they did it, in NY. And with the next kid, BM didn't try to hide emancipation again, so it's a good precedent to set for when SS14 is older.