You are here

Another skid argument

TrueNorth77's picture

Skids come today, and DH and I were just talking about SS16 and the crap he's been pulling lately. Driving like a maniac (we can see on our insurance app exactly how he drives, which over the last week is awful), being late to work because he was off doing fun things with friends, calling in to already-scheduled work shifts because something better came up. Gee DH, do you think maybe you having him take off for already-scheduled shifts multiple times to do fun things set the precedent that this was ok? Although when I asked that question months ago, DH said no that wouldn't happen, and if he wanted his son to take off to do something fun with him he would, because this isn't a "real job". *scratch_one-s_head* Now DH is upset that SS isn't working enough and calls in anytime something more fun comes up. Funny how that works. 

Anyway, I'm the one with the insurance app on my phone, so I made DH download it also so he can see SS's driving and I'm not always the one telling him. DH said that today he's going to sit down with SS and have another talk about SS and his driving and work. I gently suggested that DH's yelling at SS doesn't affect SS much anymore, and think we should tell him that if he continues to drive like crap, we will make him find his own insurance, or he can go on Crazy's policy- both of which would cost him a ton more than ours since we have multiple vehicles and a home, plus additional discounts. DH balked at that- he thinks him yelling at SS is enough to turn it around, and you don't just "kick him off after one week of bad driving". I explained that's not what I'm suggesting- I'm saying that this was his mulligan if you will- now he knows, and the next time he decides he wants to drive like crap, THAT is when he will be kicked off. More hemming and hawing and then a not-very-convincing "maybe I'll tell him that next time this happens he'll have to get his own or go on BM's". Sure DH. He kept insisting that his yelling works and he "hasn't needed consequences", because skids behavior turns around after he really gets on them. I couldn't resist pointing out how SS still stays up super late and even DH gets annoyed and comments on it, and this was after DH "got on him" about it, and also how DH has repeatedly talked to SS about his work and not only has he not worked more, he is working LESS. DH's response was that he "never seriously told SS he had to work more before" (I actually heard him tell SS multiple times and was happy because we were on the same page), but this time he is serious and SS 'doesn't have a choice". Mmmhmm... I said, I just feel like this could be easier if there were set expectations- you could yell less, everyone would be on the same page, no gray area. Like he needs to work X amount of hours to have his car. And if X happens, he gets kicked off our insurance. This is where it all went downhill because DH HATES putting consequences in place, because he might have to actually enforce them. 

DH said he "does put consequences in place", and even gets on skids for things that are more important to me than him, but that's not good enough for me. I asked him what things he was referring to, and of course he had no examples so instead of answering that question he then said he was done with that conversation and I told him I just love when skids come because it always causes arguments and not only does he not put consequences in place, he doesn't even ask them to do their chores anymore, or wipe down the island when they are done eating like he's said he would do multiple times. We ended up yelling and he asked me when I was leaving again (I leave Thursday for an international trip with a friend), just to be a jerk, but is still super hurtful. 

We don't fight that much, and we don't often say mean things, so I am extremely frustrated that we're fighting about skids again. I do know I need to disengage from this- but here are my struggles with disengaging from this aspect of skids: 1. I don't want to hear DH complain about crap with skids that could probably be fixed with consequences. 2. It's a little about control, and I hate the feeling of having no control of this in my own house. I let him handle punishments and crap, but WHY is it so hard to listen to my opinion and implement it sometimes? 3. WHY is it so freaking hard to put a consequence in place?? Just once, ever??  4. I helped this kid get his job, and my friend who works with him gave him a reference. So his behavior is a reflection on my friend, which I told him in the beginning but he seems to no longer care about because the owners at his work are very much kid-coddlers and he knows they will probably never fire him for his behavior.  

Tips on disengaging and letting go of those issues that keep me involved are welcome. I was already dreading skids coming today, now even more so. 

Comments

ESMOD's picture

A few things that I might suggest to you DH 

for a first discussion... I think it depends on the severity of his poor driving.  If we are talking low to medium bad... not over 10 mph over.. etc. (not sure exactly what is being tracked)... maybe a talking to.. with warning of consequences.. like losing any non-work access (like they do to drunk drivers..lol) or some other penalty  (loss of allowance.. loss of other priviledges etc...).

If the severity of this first offense is super bad though.. I might be more inclined to be hardcore and give a consequence NOW with threat of losing insurance coverage (and consequently use of car).

The kid needs to understand that the car is a priviledge and failure to drive per your standards will mean you ultimately will feel uncomfortable with the risk of him being on the policy.. so if his mom won't cover him.. and he can't secure his own ins as a minor.. he will be out of the transportation business.. and perhaps if he is lucky he can pay someone to get him to work.. or he will not be able to work either.. and no allowance to make up for it.

Add in the convo that it's not just an issue with how your DH sees it.. this is the insurance company who will be liable to raise rates or cut coverage.. that the police will enforce fines and he will be on the hook and in the even he does get into an accident.. he could hurt or kill someone.  My DH has a friend who's mom has been paralyzed since age 19 because her DH was driving recklessly and they rolled the car.. how will he feel if he kills or maims a friend.. a child? Driving is just as deadly of a proposition as having a gun.

TrueNorth77's picture

The severity was more Med/High. We can literally see EVERYTHING he is doing- his trips, how much he was speeding and where (72 in a 55, 38 in a 25, etc), hard braking, fast cornering, distracted by his phone- the works. The past week he has been tearing around all over the place doing it all. He tried to lie to DH about it too, not realizing the level of detail we can see. And while I did not drive the best myself as a teen, we also didn't have this kind of technology then. Skids benefit way more often than not from technology by being allowed to sit in their room to play endless video games/tik tok- but sometimes technology also has its downfalls, and in this case, it's being able to see all of SS's driving shenanigans. So this is my frustration- I absolutely agree with you, but DH will only yell at SS, and is balking at threatening to kick him off it it continues because SS has driven better since he got yelled at and DH believes the problem will be solved. I've seen this show before- it lasts for a while, but will not stay that way. DH said at the end of the convo that he would threaten to kick him off if he drives as bad as he did this past week again, but I honestly don't believe he will. 

And therein lies why SS never takes DH seriously- he knows there is never consequences. Since this affects me and I'm the one who handles our Ins. (I'm the one who had this insurance to begin with, DH was with a different company, then I added homeowners to it when we bought our house, in my name....then last year added DH to it because it was cheaper), I may take matters into my own hands if SS drives like crap again, and kick him off myself. Crazy has insurance and I'm not going to sit here fighting with DH about something that doesn't need to be fought about. 

ESMOD's picture

Who owns the car?  If you or your DH do.. I think that per your state's DMV.. you have to have insurance on it.. or confirm it is covered by a plan when you renew registrations.. penalties for no insurance might hit you too..

I think in this case.. a penalty of driving only when allowed directly to work and/or school.. and if he can maintain good driving for two weeks he gets full access.. the next time he gets reminded he gets 4 weeks of penalty box driving.. with maybe a total ban on driving.  

The bottom line is that whether you guys have the insurance or not.. if he is a minor and kills someone.. it's still possible that you will end up with some liability in that situation.. and ultimately.. it's not just about the coverage.. it's a safety issue for HIM and for everyone else around him.. and if he isn't mature enough to drive safely.. he needs more time to mature.

TrueNorth77's picture

I totally agree with you about safety and being mature enough- the issue is DH needs to put those guidelines in place, and will he? Probably not. Even though the penalty box approach doesn't affect us (we don't want to be chauffer's again). But that means putting consequences into effect, which is where DH struggles. 

SS technically paid the measly $500 for the car so it is his, but it's titled in DH's name to ensure DH could maintain control of it. If we kick SS off our ins, we would ensure SS has gotten ins. through BM if he isn't able to get his own policy (even if we have to title the car in SS's name), so he wouldn't be without insurance e. He just would no longer be a slug on ours. 

notarelative's picture

Insurance app. Does DH realize, that the insurance can view the app, and how his son drives can affect the total rate? Insurance companies sell the app by emphasizing that good driver's insurance may go down. But, the corollary applies, what goes down may go up. 

When my oldest got his car, our insurance agent advised us to title it in his name and have him get his own insurance. It was good advice as he had two (small) fender benders within the first two years. His insurance went up, not ours. 

Exjuliemccoy's picture

My were advised the same. And if you do this, make sure that the skid shows you proof of payment!

ESMOD's picture

We kind of did this with my YSD and her insurance.  she was living with her grandparents at the time.. so we used her address there.. and my DH was her "adult" on the policy with her.. not the most ideal.. but the alternative was if we put her on our policy.. the rates for all of our other cars was impacted because they consider that she "could" drive those cars too.. even though she wasn't!

it is harder when dealing with a minor than someone over 18 since I don't think you can get a policy under 18 without an adult on it with you.

TrueNorth77's picture

I don't believe DH realizes that. I'm going to email our ins. today and get it in writing that that's how the discount program works and just forward it to DH. If our rates are going to go up because of SS, he is absolutely not staying on our policy. DH titled SS's car in DH's name so he could take his car in case he needed to (as if he ever would). I'm also verifying that SS could get his own policy if the title is in DH's name. 

I reallllly wish we had done what you did with your oldest and had him get his own policy. Of course we were trying to get the best rate (and DH pays 1/3 of it), but I should have known it would cause issues. 

ESMOD's picture

Your SS won't be able to be on a policy by himself if he is under 18.. can't enter into a contract until then..  Perhaps the best possible option is a policy with your DH and him together.. but a separate policy from the one your other cars are on.. likely through another company than the one you are currently  using.  If the car is in DH's name.. he will be the one on the hook if it isn't insured.. so BM may refuse to do that.. I guess he could sign over the car to her?

Even if the car isn't in his name.. if he has custody..  he can absolutely ground the kid from driving.. just like he can take away his electronics priveleges.. or send him to be without supper..  he can "forbid him from walking around the block".. so he can tell him he can't drive somewhere too.

notarelative's picture

Rules vary by state. In my state a minor can register a car to himself as long as he has a license and shows proof of insurance in his name.

ESMOD's picture

I meant that in his state.. he may not be able to secure insurance in his name alone.. because an insurance policy involves a contract and unless he is an emancipated minor.. he cannot enter into a contract under 18... titling of the car is a different issue.

notarelative's picture

Each state is different. In my state my oldest, while under18, was able to get insurance through the state risk pool insurance. He could not shop around for rates - the rate was set by the insurance pool and the same no matter which insurance company he was assigned to. 

JRI's picture

My DH84 was like yours.  He had a strong belief in the power of his yelling at the kids.  Sigh.  They put up with him then did whatever.  I'm not someone who raises my voice. So when SD moved in and I had issues with her, I'd say, "If you x, then y" and I'd follow thru.  Pandemonium.  So, I disengaged and let DH handle "discipline", ie, more yelling.

He also had a big belief in the power of his "talks" but he was such a softie. He had the father role with my 2 BKs.  DDthen16 was notorious for late hours.  I would ground her and think "now she will learn".  But he would have one of his "talks" with her and next thing you knew, she'd be out the door.  Crazy times.  Lol.

TrueNorth77's picture

I think your DH is my DH's spirit animal. He is so proud of himself for his stern talks with skids, and thinks they work soo well. Also noteworthy is DH has a terrible memory- so he doesn't actually remember that he has already yelled at skids for a specific behavior when they do it again a year or 2 later. He just yells again and has another stern talk and pats himself on the back for how well it (temporarily) works, because he doesn't remember that this is groundhog's day and we've already been through this song and dance. 

I tried to point out the times that his yelling and talks didn't work today during our argument, because skids just repeated the behavior, and he just couldn't remember those times. 

EveryoneLies's picture

Every time there's a talk between SS or DH, whether it's heartfelt or stern or yelling, everything gets back to "normal" the next day as nothing has ever happened. I sort of can understand why it is hard to put a consequence, I have a daughter of my own (and she's really sweet) and it could be hard for me to follow through consequence with her at times (because she's sweet XD).

I sound bad I know, with my DD the relationship is a give and take (she does this with everyone. not just with me - not saying she's perfect though, she definitely has issues here and there). With SS it is always a one-way relationship (everyone does things for him, end of story), no appreciations ever. Since I'm not his bio parent I can't seem to find positive things about SS (other than he's not a bad looking kid). And I feel pretty bad being unable to understand why DH still wants to do more for SS. I think we can only explain with parent nature.  

I want to disengage (from SS for-fking-ever), but I also want to be supportive (for DH). Clearly I have no solution for this...I can only say I completely feel you.

TrueNorth77's picture

That's what happens here. DH's yelling and talks last a very short time. And overall SS is a good kid, but DH acts like these consequences are the worst thing ever, when really, it's just teaching SS a life skill, and SS has complete control over whether they are enforced or not. Even SS losing his phone for a day, DH acts like that is just the worst thing ever. Yelling all the time is not a better alternative!

At the moment I want to completely disengage from skids because I am not a BM and cannot handle DH's parenting style and skids behavior. 

bananaseedo's picture

There is no way in cold hell I would put a 'tracking' anything on my car for insurance purposes. Eff that noise.  I don't care if it 'lowers' the rate.  And having that with a teen is a huge risk of your rates going up. Technology has it's good and bad- I find this on the 'bad' camp, same as tracking your kids every move via phones (or your spouses). 

Honestly those kind of 'technology advances' are super cringe to me.  He can't have insurance on his own- at his age he is going to make some mistakes- imagine if we all had that ish growing up- grrr....it's so totalitarian. Why I also don't own an 'Alexa' - it's bad enough my voice/things I type online get used for adds, etc. 

I'm very pro-privacy, even teens IMO deserve this to grow, make mistakes, learn independence. 

Look at it this way, if you didn't have tracking, you'd never know.  People need to just damn parent their kids- go drive WITH THEM so you can get of sense of their driving style, work on it together even, but then allow them some freedom to make mistakes in life (just like we all did, and we all grew up with our every  movement being tracked). 

TrueNorth77's picture

Eh, Disagree with this. Even DH said that if he had this as a kid he would have done a lot less dumb (seroius) things. Same with me- I could have easily killed myself or someone else by driving 100mph on backroads- that's really not a lesson you want to learn- this is a full-on vehicle where people can die. And like it or not, it's a thing now, so we're certainly not going to pay more for insurance just so SS can have "privacy" while driving, because privacy = driving like an idiot. He has plenty of that the way it is. No one checks his phone or internet activity, he has his own car already....God knows what he's into. He has plenty of opportunity to make mistakes, even with this app. I've had the same thing on my car for years and it's been all good- my ins. is lower than it ever has been by FAR, and if the US govt. or whoever people think give a sh#t about what I'm doing want to track me, so be it. I'm sure they are on the edge of their seat watching my speeds and stops at the dollar store. 

And Trust me, we both drive with SS- DH drove/drives with him a ton. Of course SS drives amazing when you are with him! The second he's alone, apparently all bets are off. DH told him repeatedly how important it is to drive safe, not speed, but it didn't matter. Bottom line is, in no world are we paying more just so SS can drive as fast or reckless as he wants without an app-  As long as he's under our ins, he'll have to deal with it, or he can go on Crazy's ins. 

ESMOD's picture

I think I might be inclined to get a vehicle device that was not through my insurance company due to the potential downside if they raise rates.. but would like to still monitor my child's driving habits .

Cover1W's picture

This isn't SOLELY about he car but about your DH issue. I have a DH like this. No consequenses, no boundaries - I am lucky because both SDs were not breaking the law and don't do things to endanger others but they are both entitled teens with no drive to do much of anything other than go to school - which is good but no work, no responsibility, nada. They are going to have a hard time out in the real world when they get there.

1. I don't want to hear DH complain about crap with skids that could probably be fixed with consequences.

When my DH complains "Why didn't YSD to X or Y or Z?" Me: silence or "Ask her DH." (do not follow up).

2. It's a little about control, and I hate the feeling of having no control of this in my own house. I let him handle punishments and crap, but WHY is it so hard to listen to my opinion and implement it sometimes?

YES. I get this. However, if your SS is endangering YOUR insurance and YOU and DH can be responsible for liability if the crash is big enough I'd MYSELF give an ultimatum directly to DH and SS and if there's another dangerous speeding incident then KEYS ARE GONE. Do not allow yourself to be implicated or financially on the hook. Crystal clarity is needed.

3. WHY is it so freaking hard to put a consequence in place?? Just once, ever?? 

Because then DH "feels bad" because he's "being mean" or not "his friend" and what if he "never sees SS again?" 

4. I helped this kid get his job, and my friend who works with him gave him a reference.

You will not do this again and hope that you've discussed it with your friend since.

TrueNorth77's picture

This is absolutely not just about SS, and also a DH issue. I am completely exasperated by his refusal to put consequences in place. I cannot tell you how fewer arguments we would have if he would even do this occasionally (not even every time I wish he would).  

I will give DH and SS the head's up that this is the plan, but the next time SS has a streak (more than one small instance) of driving like an idiot, I am going to tell him and DH that he needs to go on Crazy's insurance. Not going to affect me. Not going to keep fighting about it. 

I wish I hadn't told SS about this job, much less had my friend refer him. Lesson learned. SS was just telling me about the other jobs he's applied for. Go for it SS! I would prefer you working anywhere but where you are at this point. 

 

 

ndc's picture

It's the rare kid for whom "stern talks" and yelling do any good beyond the very short term in the absence of other consequences.  I have a younger sister who is very sensitive and being yelled at tends to work better for her than for most, but kids know if there's no follow-through to the yelling, and they grow to ignore it.  Same for spanking, in my experience.   It's over quickly and just as quickly forgotten (I'm talking about spanking, not parents that beat their kids), so ineffective.

My DH, who I will admit is a crappy parent (although he plays FOTY on Fakebook and believes his own posts), yells at his kids, who are much younger than your SS.  They get upset in the short term, but repeat the same behaviors.  Frankly, the only impact I see is that their father's shine dims for them each time he yells.  I, on the other hand, deal out consequences, with my DH's blessing.  He won't do it himself, but he's more than willing to let me do it.  I send skids to their rooms, take away electronics, decline to take them shopping, take away privileges, etc.  It is MUCH more effective than DH's yelling, and the skids are much less likely to act up when I'm around.  Luckily the skids are pretty good kids, so we don't have many issues, but it sucks that these weak men can't properly discipline their children.  In my DH's case, I think it's pure laziness.  I don't think it's that he would feel bad or mean, because he backs up the consequences I impose and they know he will every time.

In your situation, with your insurance and your friend's reputation on the line, I would insist upon consequences, even if I had to deliver them.

notsurehowtodeal's picture

Teenage boys have much higher insurance rates for a reason - they get in more accidents. And accidents often involve hurting other people. It is hard for me to understand a parent who knows his kid is driving like that and it not willing to impose imediate and severe consequences.

You might remind DH that if SS is involved in an accident where he is at fault, and the other driver comes after him financially, that DH is going to be responsible as the car is in his name and it is his kid who was driving. And the other side will come after any data that will prove SS was an unsafe driver and that DH should have known it. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, this has to frustrating...

Exjuliemccoy's picture

As a teen, I loved to race and beat the boys. Car culture was big then, and there were far fewer other people and vehicles around. Even so, there were times when my parents took my keys - I don't blame them.

But this? You can potentially be impacted, which gives you a right to draw some boundaries. Draw them with your H, and draw them with your SS. Separately. Sometimes, a step parent has to handle things because their partner is simply incapable, and IMO this qualifies.

Your SS is old enough to recognize when he's confronted by a superior, unyielding force. I'd just be straightforward. Explain his every move is moniored by you AND the insurance company, and tell him what the consequences will be if he doesn't control himself. Then I'd tell him "Look, we both know your dad is a pushover, but I'm not so don't test me on this." With your H, you need to twist his balls, threaten his wallet, and scare him a bit. Be that superior force and tell him that since he hasn't handled the issue, you are; and damned if you're going to be put in financial jeopardy. Emphasize that this affects you too, and that HE'LL be the one paying any additional costs. He may even be secretly relieved you played the bad cop.