So do you force visitation?
This is a question about my bios and their dad...some of you know from old blogs the issues with my ex.
In a nutshell for years he has tried the minimum involvement, time, financial supprot towards his kids. Every few months the topic comes up from my kids who don't want to go to their dads anymore and are quite adamant. Now at ages 10 and 12 I'm still enforcing they go...but at what age do you allow them to decide?
HOw do you know if forcing them to go is worse for them in the long run or worse for their relationship with their dad by forcing it when they hate going? Do you let them decide, at what age???
I know from being on this board the NCP side of things, and from my bf....but I think it's a different ballgame when you're dealing with an ex that was abusive.
The boys have made comments about him cussing/yelling at them (which I yell shoot)...but I guess it's the tone I know it very well...a couple times i've heard of slap, shake, hit....not beating but definately innapropiate ways of punishment. He did this when we were married would get mad and slap rather then spank a bottom...shoot he slapped me around which is why i divorced him. I KNOW he is abusive, I KNOW he can control it and does at times very well...and I know other times old habits come back.
My oldest especially is very bitter abotu his dad, and I can positively say I have not spoken about him badly, I have always encouraged them to stand up for themselves or that it's ok to say "don't talk about my mom she doesn't talk about you" when he says things like 'moms an idiot, a bitch, f'in stupid". But I have told them they need to spend time and have a relationship with him, that I understand he can be mean at times and what they can do to overcome it. I won't trash talk but I won't deny or downplay or ignore abusive behavior, my kids deserve better then that.
When your oldest starts getting angry and almost crying and says screw the relationship with him, I HATE him, I dont want to go see him-then what?
Exh took them on thanksgiving to a friends house-they are also latino....my kids heard them make a comment about 'gringo estupido" which is stupid Americn basically so they came back quite pissed. I can't minimize how they feel because that's what people did to me, shoot i divorced him because i couldn't handle being around his abusive ass self....but now i'm forcing my kids to despite their not wanting to go? So...in this case, I have not pas'd my kids, nor has my family.....we've experienced the reverse from him---yet my kids still hate the guy...i suspect its more of a 'i wish dad were different'-much like I felt when we were married. Sometimes they are ok with him and sometimes it's hellish-and he very much does the 'guilty daddy' thing..buys stuff a lot, go out to eat even though I've told him in front of the kids they dont' HAVE to do these things the idea is to spend time together. Problem is, my ex probably rather do other stuff then spend quality time with them. They have moments where they do good-when ex is on his 'Gollum' behavior.
It's sad, they probably wish he was a nicer/normal dad, hes' not so they are angry about it. It's their only dad...an abusive one though. They have my bf now that is in their daily life as a male figure who has never shown agression towards them. At some point I figure if he left the country to go back home it wouldn't be a loss to them. Perhaps them visiting him once a year for extended visit would be the better option. I guess this is more a sad vent on the 'other bm side' as things with SKID are good right now! -well good because I don't see her lol.
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I don't know honestly, this
I don't know honestly, this is a hard one since they are older. What does your gut say
My gut has said 'let them not
My gut has said 'let them not go" but i felt a responsibility to not appear as PAS'ing or thwarting efforts (certainly not his) of a relationship w/their dad...but my gut KNOWS how he can be and if I removed myself an ADULT who should be able to handle him away from his abuse--is it fair to force them to go and endure possible abuse since you never know how he's going to be.
I know they will start having more of their social lives soon and will dwindle down. I was planning on asking the ex to take a few days of Christmas break so I dont' have to burn ALL my vac time and the kids could stay at his place instead of mine -they can stay alone during the day but he comes home earlier then I do so that would have helped.
Instead I just sent my time request to my manager- 1 week vac the other week I'll come in two days/proposed 3 days at home...because they were adamant they didn't want to go there. At least I think my parents will be back by then.
He's not Mexican lol-and he
He's not Mexican lol-and he lives alone in a nice basement apartment at the moment. Ex has moved around at least 10 times since we divorced! Mostly it's been either one roomate, once a girlfriend, and then just him.
It's more a matter of his actions/behavior with them-which can go from ok, great to asshole.
This is what I would do - I'd
This is what I would do - I'd call my ex and talk to him about it and let him know the his kids really don't want to go over there b/c of his behavior. Then I would also tell him that the ball is in his court meaning he is the one that has to do something to see his kids. I wouldn't force them like that.
There is a difference between normal dads and your ex and that is that he is abusive and the rest is not. In my case dh doesn;t necessarily force the kids but he has told them that if they don;t have anything going on they need to be at his house on his weekends.
Your best bet is to out the ball in his court so that he will have to take action not you. Also perhaps you could have the kids tell him that they don;t want to go too.
Well, go ahead and ask him to
Well, go ahead and ask him to take them like you said over christmas break and see how it goes during that time. You can make your decision after the break
My oldest went through this.
My oldest went through this. When we first split, ex got medicated. Well...it messed up his ability to function. He was short tempered and physical with them. He had never been before...we don't even spank...but he was dragging her around by her arm(leaving bruises) and throwing things..threw her flat iron out of a moving car..etc. She hated to go. He made her watch her siblings all the time...lots of yelling..she had it. She was 13/14 at the time.I didn't make her go..and told him that it was HIS responsibility to fix what was broken between them. So I made her go every 5th visitation..so they could start building something again. Now...it's better. She goes more willingly..his meds are worked out and he found a solution...he buys her love. Either way...when they are older..and have legitimate issues...imo, it's up to the other parent to fix their problems so the kids want to be around them again.
Hey Overit my ex is
Hey Overit my ex is similiar....
My kids have a step dad now....My BD17 said to me this morning....'thats before I decided not to have anything to do with Dad anymore' She was speaking about the xmas she spend with him in 2009.
My BS14 still thinks his dad is 'tops'....even though at the age of 2 his father went off to fight in the war and pretty much that was the end of us....the ex was on with others....didnt call me, rang my son for his 2nd birthday for 2 mins...then nothing...
In the eyes of most of my family, my kids father must have decided it was getting too hard so he just gave up. You dont do that to kids...My BD17 also said she remembers all the arguments the yelling, the pushing and shoving her dad did to me...and how scared she was....
blood is not thicker than water.....not wen these types of men say one thing...do another...NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU TRY...they will always stuff you around...
Dont make your kids go to him....when they are old enough, they might wanna go see him....or he may be nice and wanna see them...apologize for his irresponsible behaviour...but in the meantime....concentrate on your new family dynamics....
incidently my BS18 decided he would go stay with his dad and the new dog of a wife, whilst waiting for his army enlistment date....he isnt too happy but he is 18
nb....my kids often mention how dad bags me 'jokingly' to them.....they think its funny...I dont tend to be laughing....Im way too serious ova the 40k he owes in child support etc....
One thing I do know, I doubt
One thing I do know, I doubt he woudl EVER pursue a complaint legally, that's not his style. Never did any paperwork, research, etc...particularly if it came to be about the kids. So I'm really not afraid of legal implications.
You can't prove the a slap is abuse, I wouldn't involve CPS or anythingn like that either or require supervised, he just wont do it, I rather just allow them to decide at a certain point. They are getting there, especially the oldest.
Example> I had to call once last min to pay one of his speeding tkts because he was hrs away from a warrant...during the seperation he sought no counsel with the TPO...nor during the divorce0...he had a mutual friend review and he finally signed. The man didn't even change his damn address w/the post office for years! He didn't file taxes for years and then had to go rectify it lately. See he would care less to see a court house/judge/sue me for time, etc. IN fact if it weren't for me encouraging him to spend time w/his kids time after time he probably would have had a LOT less involvement with them then he does now-which already is almost nothing. Hence why I think me just stopping the 'encouraging' and advising him 'hey kids have stuff going on this wknd' he may actually prefer that, who knows.
On the flip side I know it can't be easy to know your kids reject you and don't like you, and that they are happy w/their 'stepdad'-but he alone dug himself that grave....I know a lot of their rejection now comes because for so long he showed minimal effort to be there for them and spend time or WANT his weeks during summer/school breaks, etc....never showed up to important stuff, always minimal effort, kids resent that over time and finally get to the 'reject you back' stage
I'm sorry but I had to just
I'm sorry but I had to just put this out there.... This could be exactly the way the BMs in some of your situations feel about their xs. Maybe thats why some of them do what they do when withholding visits.
OTH... I agree with Purple. I wouldn't intervene and stop them from going. I would make him actually be a father and make them go himself. The thing is, you have to give him access to them so he can accomplish this.
If they're giving you a hard
If they're giving you a hard time on the day they go, could you tell them they have to call their Dad and work it out? If he's OK with not seeing them, then you're OK with it?
This is really a tough one
This is really a tough one for me since my son's father never ONCE wanted to see his child. Whereas, with my DH, PB is vindictive and uses the kids to try to hurt him. She PASes the skids like crazy.
It's tough because in our situation with PB, I KNOW how she operates. She has flat out TOLD DH that, "If you ever leave me, I will do my best to make the rest of your life a living hell." I guess she meant, if you ever find someone ELSE because she didn't go completely batshit crazy until I came into the picture.
DH has not and will not hit his kids. So that it a key difference here.
But I am sure that PB could go on this website too and make a very good case about how the kids are BORED and how they don't have any FRIENDS at our place, blah, blah, blah...not pointing out that WE have tried to get them to play outside. WE have shown them all the kids playing at the playground - basically in our back yard. WE did not talk the skids into thinking that DH needed to be Disney Dad when they come for a visit.
If I were in your case and I was afraid that my son's father was abusing him, no way in HELL would I MAKE him go visit if he didn't want to. But, the CORRECT way to do this is to go back to court to have the visitation lifted. Otherwise, you are violating the CO - whether he chooses to take YOU back to court or not.
And this would take more $,
And this would take more $, more time, more legal proceedings...kind of like my ex and i left CS services out of it and dealt w/out ourselves. I even DID try to file my own divorce, it was a technicality in the final decree the judge kept throwing out and finally I went through an attorney-it was uncontested. We never did the court battle thing that seems so common here.
YES that bit me in the ass when he went in arrears for a couple years and not having CS services involved but I dont' regret that for a minute now seeing how they really are.... but I'm not giving the state/attorneys/cs office/judges any $ or authority over my life, my kids, or the ex's for that matter if we can agree with it between ourselves I guess. I know a lot of people are big proponents of "go to court, sue, get an attorney, go to the judge' and spend years, and thousands on court proceedings and dramatics....I just don't know...perhaps a talk with him about it...and if he doesn't seem bothered that they want to stay home then we leave it at that agreement between us. It's not like I would allow NO contact for months at end, I probably would insist on it at least so often. This wknd they are supposed to go to their dads after their game on Sat so we will see what happens.
Normally I 'prepare' them in advance by mentioning its' their wknd w/their dad to get them used to the transition/idea that they will be going there.
I know my kids get 'bored' there also...shoot they can get bored at home also...that's not a reason for them NOT to spend time w/their dad though...or because he doesn't have cable, etc. One thing I do know-abuse isn't only physical....if a man is abusive w/his wife, ex-wife, he's likely abusive in some way mentally/emotionally to the kids. I can almost damn guarantee that.
Hmmmmm - well, have you
Hmmmmm - well, have you talked to HIM about it? Maybe he doesn't really care if he gets them or not. Maybe he'd be open to suggestions about changing the schedule or lessening the visits? Maybe just day visits with dad and not overnights? (I'm not sure how far apart you live) Or more phone conversations with less actual physical visits?
I'm sure they at least have a way to get ahold of you in an emergency in case things started to go REALLY bad at their dad's place...
BTW, I am jealous. I sure wished that PB and DH could have worked things out without involving the system...but when you THINK you have a schedule set up and then she takes the skids on a MONTH LONG vacation with no notification or notice of WHERE the kids are even at...AND when this psychotic BM decides to come screaming out on the front lawn when we would pick the skids up for visitation...THAT is when I decided that them working things out wasn't going to go very far and we needed to get the courts and lawyers involved. ::sigh::
Thank goodness the court part of my step-life is over...I HOPE...
Yikes sky-i think dealign
Yikes sky-i think dealign with an asshole custodial is ten times worse then an asshole noncustodial lol
The situation with my SD17
The situation with my SD17 has some similarities and some differences. The main similarity is that her "perfect" bio-daddy never wants to see her any more than the "court-approved" visitation periods, which is only 2 days a month, and a few weeks in the summer. He **NEVER** asks for extra time. When he does have her, he is often verbally abusive, screaming at her if she forgets here phone, etc., and laying massive guilt trips over mistakes she makes. However, to my knowledge, he never hits or does anything physical.
The main difference is that my SD17 **WORSHIPS** here bio-daddy. She never gets upset that he never wants to see her more than 2 days a month, which, to be honest, is next to nothing. SD17 not only takes the verbal abuse in stride, but often agrees with him after she has settled down ("I deserved it," etc.). She is always respectful and reverential towards bio-daddy. Hell, if he took a crap on the ground, she would pick the turd up and proclaim it as the central holy object in "Daddy" religion, since he saw fit to leave it on the ground for her.
Needless to say, I get **really** tired of him chewing her out and upsetting her, and her in turn heaping unending adulation upon him. I've disengaged, but it is still sickening to watch.
You know, I truly do feel bad
You know, I truly do feel bad for skids. I know that alot of people talk about how "skids are not "visiting" the NCP, that the NCP home is the skids home as well as the CP home. But I couldn't disagree more. It is "visit"ing and nothing more.
I remember one time when SD13.5 was about 11 or so, she just stopped coming to see her father much. SS12.5 (who was about 10 at the time) asked me why SD was being "wierd" and not wanting to come over. I told him that she probably just likes being "home", after all didn't he like being home, going home etc.? Funny thing is about the same age that SD stopped coming much, SS did the same thing. We are now lucky to see them once a month. My DH takes it personally and tries to blame them, me, BMs and just about anything he can, but I was that age once and I know that I wanted to be with my friends on weekends, I wanted to be "home" in my comfort zone. Thankfully my father lived (and still does) clear across the country so visitation was never an issue. I would see him once every 5 years or so when he would come to my state to visit.
I don't know if this makes sense or not, but I truly believe that some BMs are not really PASing... it's just that the kids reach a certain age and the whole "visiting" thing becomes more of a hassle and forced thing for the skids. And I think we all know how much skids love to be FORCED to do something.... I think forcing almost promotes the resistance.
DaizyDuke...good point..that
DaizyDuke...good point..that was about the age I stopped wanting to hang out at my Dad's. He married a much younger woman, she had two toddlers and then one with my Dad. I did not want to spend my weekends with a bunch of toddlers when I was 13...and honestly, my Dad was always off doing stuff so I was pulled out of my "home" to spend time with stepmom and the kids...not cool at 13. My stepmom recognized that and helped my Dad lay off. Fast forward to today...I adore my stepmom, I'm close to my Dad and my step/half siblings and I are close as well. I respected them giving me space to have a normal teen life..and not just be a product of divorce.
I understand where you are
I understand where you are coming from but I have a hard time giving a 10 or 12 yo child that much decision making. It's not fair to them. Now it's all on them that they do or don't have a working reltionship with their father.
I really don't believe any child of that age has the emotional maturity to understand the importance of fostering close personal relationships, that's the parent's job. All they know is what's cool and fun and maybe it's not so much something they think they enjoy at this point in their life. They may look back years later and be thankful that they had even a so/so relatioship with the only father they have.
I think it's right for the custodial parent to set the stage that visitation is not a choice, to encourage and make them available. However, I don't think that includes going out of your way to make it happen if that other parent is lazy about it.
Fabu...actually this makes a
Fabu...actually this makes a lot of sense to me, thank you for that!