PAS ....How real is this
I believe this to be very true and real!!! Mostly because it is happening to us. I also believe I may have done this early in my seperation from my childrens dad. I did not like him at all and i didn't care if my kids knew it. Until one day I saw the hurt on my daughters face and i thought omgoodness!! Wth am I doing. You know how you can say something about your family but noone else can, that came over me. I realized that I don't need to help him to be a jerk & just because he is to me doesn't mean he is to the kids. In the mean time they have come to see that their dad isn't superman ( which my son actually thought for a year cause his dad told him that) he makes mistakes but he's still their dad.We have a pretty good working relationship now,mostly because i tried to make friends with his wife that helped tremendously!! You know as parents sometimes we can use all the help we can get!! Anyway, I'm reading books articles anything i can get my hands on about PAS because I believe my sd is suffering ( along with the rest of us this includes my bc, she is sometimes mean to them )from this. Not just from her mother but, grandmother & great grandmother. We have evidence of it from her and some of her maternal cosins have told us specific things the grandparents say about my husband and i. However I just read an article on another website that said PAS has been discredited in the US is this true? Am I way behind the times? I really want to get my sd into counseling , as well as our whole family!! I also want our attorney to request coparenting classes for my husband and bm! Do these things usually work? I told my husband I don't think we should fight for full custody, she doesn't need to be away from her bm, just with us more so she is not so corrupted. Her attitude and personality has changed dramatically since the grandmother has become the primary care giver.... she is live in daycare,housekeeper, cook, & brainwasher!!! Anything anyone knows on this subject is greatly appreciated. btw i'm reading divorce poison currently... here is the article that discounts PAS, it is very long but disturbing
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.step-parents/browse_thread/th...
Discrediting PAS
Unfortunately some allegations of sexual or physical abuse have been countered with claims of PAS. Whether you want to label it PA or PAS or not.. This website is a testimonial to the real effects of parental alienation, badmouthing, brainwashing and then the most important piece.. how the kids contribute to it. More often than not it's to demonstrate allegiance to the afflicting parent. Kids will try to gain favor with the parent they feel less secure with.
Divorce Poison is a great book and even discusses the differences.
Here is an interesting site.. http://www.parentadvocates.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=7131
I didn't think of that....
Kids will try to gain favor with the parent they feel less secure with.
So when she goes to her moms and says things negatively about our house, its so her mom will be happy with her?
I don't believe she goes home and says i had a horrible time, i believe her mom grills her or not even that asks questions while dancing around the answers she really wants.Because she told her dad that although she knows (proven to her unfortunately)her mom has lied , she doesn't know why she doesn't believe her dad. So he asked her why she goes to her mom and says negative things and she says, I don't know (which is her answer for everything reguarding her mom). If it is something she has been told to keep from us she gets this look on her face and says i don't know. This is simple things like questions about who is watching her (daycare wise) or when your mom sent you to great gma for 2 weeks to stay , which is in the same town we live in 5 blocks from us she didn't tell us, we saw her the day she went to stay with the gma,she was in town for a week before we found out , my kids saw her at the pool. Bm told her dad it was none of his f*@kn business. She enrolled her in swim lessons for 2 weeks in our town sent her to stay w the ggma!!! We live across the street from the pool!!! She was not allowed to come to our house except on the scheduled visitation thurs nites at 7 pm!!! And the daughter acted like she didn't know what was going on. She hardly ever talks about her moms house with us but we don't pry. Now she will say stuff to my kids. But i don't want to be using my teenage daughters to get info from a 9 yr old, that is asinine!!! Or do you think she is like this because she is not comfortable with us? I'm kind of strict with how my kids act and i don't sugar coat things, my husband is the exact same way!! We expect that everyone act respectful to each other and noone child is above the other. There is no babying at my house, also I have 4 kids, sd was an only child until a year ago, when her mom had a baby with her bf. maybe its because i say whats on my mind and im used to my kids who do the same?
Yes Shandee.
so BM will be happy with her... If sd is living between gma and bm how secure is she feeling. BTW doesn't the child placement that you have allow for first right of refusal? Hmmm I would also think that a 9 year old would kind of be enamored with your teenagers when she is with them... She probably really likes it at your house, but does not have permission to.
I wouldn't ask the 9 year old about why mom did this or that or even why SD says negative things over at BM's. This is placing her in the middle of what the afflicting parent is doing to her. Instead, say it was wonderful that you got to spend quality time with your gma.. When she is at your home and not in ear shot.., make the calls to BM. NOT when sd is at BMs... that way SD is exposed to BMs tirades.
Shandee here is another link
This link discusses successful claims of PAS and how it can pass the Frye test. (admissible scientific evidence) Of course there is other valuable insight as well.
http://parental-alienation.com/aboutPAS.htm
PAS is very very real
Take it from a sm who has had to watch her husband's heart broken time and time again... he is finally to the point where he's given up hope of ever having a relationship with his daughter. She has learned from the best (her mom) how to hurt her father. The only good thing that will come out of this is that BM will have to live with the monster she created.
Have i mentioned
The bm was raised with no father at all.Her mother didn't raise her her gma did, the queen bee of chaos!! The mom is a nutcase neway. And this who is a primary care giver to sd now!! Strange huh?
PAS
I've read a lot about that. My feelings are that its another useless term, because from my experience both sides are always guilty of that to some degree. I don't think you can control what one parent or their family says to who, or in front of the children. In fact, its a unrealistic expectation. Also, its often true what the parent says. Say daddy left mommy for another woman, and the child hears that for the next 10 years from mommy, mommy's friends, relatives ect. Seriously, how often have we all seen that one - too often! So maybe dad should have done the divorce differently if he wanted the respect of ex, kids, and relatives. Or a good relationship with his children!
Alec Baldwin is a good example who is trying to make that a legitimate legal ploy, which so far hasn't worked. He's trying to bury the fact that he is violent, a bully and really not a good example as a father. So if he uses PAS, he's hoping the courts will not see the truth. Simply, that his wife is trying to keep her daughter away from a madman. And sadly the poor child doesn't want to visit volatile nutty dad, and being 13 she doesn't have to now. So from everything I've read its a pretty useless term, and children even young ones know when they've been wronged. The key is to put the kids first.
That last comment struck a chord with me Shandee!!!
My SS is also living full time with his GM. She is what you would call a "queen bee" as well. BM is only able to get jobs in bars due to her lengthy criminal record. Because of the hours she kept(not to mention the lifestyle that accompanied) she was unable to take care of SS. So GM being the grandmaster of PAS, passed it on to her daughter. My SS only calls when he is asking for money or wants to visit, a rarity since he moved back to GM's.
It is a very real epidemic caused by pure emotional ignorance and irresponsibilty. The only cure is for massive awareness, everyone who has children needs to be educated on the matter. So many childhoods have been destroyed because of this very thing! It is also a form of child abuse.
"All that we are is a result of what we have thought."- Buddha
This makes me want to cry.
Persephone turned me on to this PAS stuff which explained everything to me. She recommended a book called Divorce Poison. I've struggled not wanting to blame BM for our problems. I know of some of her struggles and the hurt she has felt. I also know how important it is for her to be the best mom in the world. I have felt as if I am not taking responsibility for my part by blaming someone else.
But, I do take a hard look at myself every day. So does my husband. We reach out and do exactly what counselors tell us to do. I read the quotes from Divorce Poison and it is PAS. BM may not realize what she is doing but she is doing it none the less.
I don't know how to fix this. We really have tried everything we can think of. Shakespeare said it and I quote him all the time "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" I think it soothes the PAS parents ego to feel that your children like/love you better and their other parent is a loser. The problem with that is, the kids are a part of both parents , so what does that say about them.
I'm sure it doesn't help but I am in the same boat. Maybe there is some comfort in company.
The courts won't acknowledge PAS here in MI
A member of my DH's family is a therapist and just attended a conference in Michigan. Family court representatives were in attendence as well as therapists and other professionals. He called us this weekend and told us the following:
1. Michigan courts won't recognize PAS as valid.
2. They will allow you to discuss specific behavior issues but to bring up PAS in court is taboo.
3. The courts feel Gardner (who labeled the syndrome) simply did this for money and that the "syndrome" is overrated and unfounded.
I can tell you by our experience it's very, very real. We aren't in full-blown PAS yet, but it's close. It's definitely child abuse. It doesn't just affect the children and the alienated parent, in our case, it involves many different family, "friends", and teachers who don't even know it's going on.
Cntrykitten65, I agree with you that BM will have to live with the monsters she created, however, in BM's eyes, my husband will always be the cause of their children's problems and she'll blame him forever. It's a no win... and when does one just throw their hands up in the air and quit fighting so hard to spend time with kids who have been taught to hate?
The thing about PAS is that
The thing about PAS is that BM may not even realize she is doing it, like Shandee did when she was seperated. I think in those cases, the BM is trying to work through her own emotions, and may say things in moments of anger. Or she may even say things to others not realizing the kids are listening in, like on the phone,or in conversations with friends or family. Even though the effects are the same, it just doesn't seem as sinister, or malicious to me as when a BM/parent/GP set out with the intent to alienate the child from the other parent.
In our case both BM and her Dad worked full force at creating PAS in ss, I think they felt it had worked with BM's 1st ex-hubby, who is more of a meek personality than dh. Her 1st ex still paid child support, but gave up on getting visitation. She got the money,without having to do anything in return So they assumed if they tried the same tactics DH might walk away. They found out very quickly they were wrong, but they still tried. When her Dad passed away, it seemed like the majority of the PA seemed to stop. Don't get me wrong we still see or hear things that make us wonder if she is still trying to plant that seed in ss head, but for the most part I think it was more GP creating the problem than BM.
**How seldom we weigh our neighbors in the same balance as ourselves. ~Thomas à Kempis**
She knows...
Bm & Dh were broke up long before my ex and i so she has had plenty of time to get over whatever. She had moved on long before she left DH house. It is not a once in a while thing when shes mad it's all the time derrogatory remarks!!! My dh called last wk 2 ask about some immunazations and she said if you were any kind of dad you would know about that. The gma is even worse! Sd 6 year old cousin came up to my husband at a convinience store. Wait let me set this up.... My husband was in the passanger seat of a friends vehicle, the 6 year old is standing outside the convience store alone ( the gma is inside, we live in a small town ) the little girl walks over to my husband and says you're " my cousins dad" , dh replies yes. "My gma doesn't like you!!" My husband stunned says well the feeling is mutual. Then the gma comes out and starts yelling at the little girl. Gotta love the white trash!!! Now this is the same woman that lives with and cares for my sd everyday. My children witnessed the same little girl getting slapped in the face by the same gma at the public pool!! Once again not happy about this woman being w/my sd everyday even if it is her bio gma! It's not like the bm is stupid she has a college education and a skilled trade she makes good money , but she just can't shake where she came from. Now alot of ppl pull themselves out of the gutter you can't help what you are born into , but you can change your shoes but if you don't take out the trash well ..... there ya go. Not trying to sound uppity but I guess there are some demons some ppl can't escape and for that i feel bad!! I don't want my sd to turn out to be a mean , hatefilled, empty shell of a person!
Oh Susanna...
Here is a post with some links about PAS