Extremely Emotional or Manipulative Behavior?
Hello!
I've posted once before in regards to my SD(11YO) and husband enmeshed relationship. I got some great feedback and was able to talk to him and got him to see the light so to speak and we have been better off for it, so I came here again for more advice...
SD has always been more emotional than I'm used to. My husband says she became more sensitive 4yrs ago when she started spending more time with BM. She's also going through puberty. But we are both struggling with finding the line between being sensitive and emotional VS manipulative.
Ex. My husband asked her to clean her room, he went to fix his bike in the garage. 15min later she goes out to the garage crying about how she feels sad because she thinks we dont like her and she doesnt get along with certain kids at school so there must be something wrong with her. He consoles her and next thing I know they are going for a bike ride, her room untouched. They get back and I mention 'Hey SD, come help me clean up this arts and crafts thing you were doing'. First she tries to say she will finish it tomorrow, then husband says no you will be at BM house. She tried to walk away but I said okay well let's do it together now. She walks up to me and whispers that 'It's my dad's fault this mess is still here, he told me it was okay to leave it'. Husband was maybe 8ft away on the couch so I flat out said 'Hey husband, SD just told me you told her it was okay to leave her art stuff out. Did you?' To which he replied 'Absolutely not. SD why are you lying?' He started to get angry and I diffused the situation by saying maybe she misheard him at some point.
She lies constantly about things. Constantly. It's usually small stuff but I've made my concerns very clear with my husband about the little stuff could snowball since she seems to be unable to be honest about much.. Fast forward to today. She came to me crying after I got home and wanted to talk 1 on 1. She said her dad is mean to her and proceeded to tell me how her BM told her that her dad/my husband is child abusive towards her because he raises his voice at her and yells. Here's the thing... We have lived together long enough. My husband does have a temper and does raise his voice and even yelling at times. But he is in no way abusive. It isnt a common thing and 90% of the time he asked nicely a few times. I listened to her and explained to her what real abuse is and how it isnt fair or safe to be claiming your dad is abusive when he is just disciplining her. She said she's extremely sensitive and doesn't like it and wanted me to talk to him in private about how he should stop 'yelling' at her all the time. The situation that happened, SD told me he yelled and slammed the door because she didn't eat the food he made her. Husband said no, she specifically asked for X food and he made it and brought it to her room. He was checking in 30min later and saw she hadn't even touched it. He asked why and she said 'I tried to but its too hot I can't eat it until it cools down' and he got mad with her because it hadn't been touched at all, she was lying about trying to eat it but not being able due to the temperature. Honestly, I get it. But she does this shit a lot like asks for food then doesn't touch it. She does it a lot.
Im confused on how to handle her if I'm being honest... Is she highly sensitive and emotional or is she saying she is so she doesn't have to do anything? She doesn't do ANYTHING around the house. Doesn't clean up her messes or her room. Doesn't cook. Doesn't do her own laundry. She's nice and mostly gets on well with my BD(3.5YO) and we all have a good time together 80% of the time. But I've seen her be hot/cold to my daughter, lie about things to try and get her in trouble, lie about all sorts of stuff to both me and husband... And again it's mostly small stuff but I worry about the escalation. Obviously we don't want to encourage the laziness, lying or manipulation. But also dont want to squash her emotions or belittle them. Problem is, if you ask her nicely she doesn't do what you're asking. She deflects and distracts. With me she is WAY better about doing what she's told.. Like 10 fold. But even I sometimes find myself telling her 10x to brush her hair or get dressed. If husband asks nicely, she just doesn't listen. It's like she pushes him to raise his voice then cries about him raising his voice and still doesn't end up doing whatever it was...
How do you handle this type of kiddo? Am I looking at this wrong? What am I missing?
What exactly is it that you get?
First, you and her father caught her in a bald faced lie then you "diffused" the situation? Why did you do that? IMHO what you did is facilitate this lying bullshit from this proven manipulative lazy failed family spawn.
All 11yos try to get out of shit. What effective parents do when the 11yo pulls this shit is make then do what needs to be done rather than doing for them. doing with them, or taking them on bike rides.
I would suggest that when you call this little liar out on her manipulative crap, that you hold her nose to the proverbial fire to experience the consequences rather than coddling her manipulative fee fees, sensitivity, and emotion by shutting daddy down when he is angry with her for lying.
You not only undermined your DH, you showed SD-11 that you are her bitch. So to speak, and that she can play you to intervene when she gets herself in hot water with daddy.
Based on the prevailing evidence you mention, I would say that the odds on favorite is that her fee fees, sensitivity, and emotion are purely manipulative. Time to cut that shit off hard.
Time for some "stop your whining and crying or I will give you something to whine and cry about" IMHO. Not necessarily with corporal consequences, but with direct, immediate, and misery inducing consequences for her manipulative bullshit.
Don't forget to take care of you, to focus on living your best life, and on nurturing your marriage. Do not let this manipulative prepubescent turd get away with her crap and disrupting your life, marriage, child, and home.
Emotion, sensitivity, and fee fees not withstanding, set and enforce the standards of behavior and standards of performance in your home and discipline accordingly. Whether her fee fees are hurt or not, and whether her face is leaking or not.
All IMHO of course.
It sounds like the lying is
It sounds like the lying is perhaps a bit to maybe head off situations where your DH flies off the handle. I mean, on the one hand, you say it isn't often.. but give several situational examples where he does, in fact, blow hot at her.
It could well be a combination in her. Avoiding dad's wrath... being sensitive...trying to get out of things.
You saying you are "stepping in to diffuse" means you know his reaction will be outsized. No, she shouldn't lie.. but your DH also needs to do better at regulating his own emotions.. his may be anger responses... hers are sensitive responses.. both need to work on that.
If she is there enough time.. she should be able to be responsible for at least keeping her own room clean and generally being helpful when asked.. If she is more only EOWE.. keeping her own room neatish and keeping messes out of common areas should be enough.
And.. when he continually does things like the bike ride when she had a task to do.. he is training her that she can give sad eyes and her obligations will be forgotten.. it's his fault that she does this.. because it works. Wouldn't you do what you were trained gave you the best results?
Thank you!
Thank you !
So, yes, I diffused because I didn't want things to escalate to husband yelling. Him and I have spoken multiple times about him raising his voice a bit harshly at times and he knows and is actively working on regulating his anger to stay cool even when he's pissed. I've seen him fly off the handle with her twice. Once my BD(3.5) got injured(not horribly but enough for a bloody nose) while they were playing because SD didn't listen to him regarding safety and was far too rough with her. He did yell and really lay into her.. But TBH I felt that was appropriate as my BD could have been seriously hurt. 2nd time was more mundane but I still understood the anger... She refused to take a shower and brush her hair after multiple gentle and more stern asks. He was having a bad morning already and just lost it and yelled at her.
I stepped in to diffuse not to empower SD but now that I'm reading these comments, I see that's exactly what I did. I just wanted him to see what I was talking about regarding her manipulation and lies.
We have her F-M every weekend, often enough IMO. I'll be honest the room cleaning situation drives me insane. You can't even see the floor in her room 90% of the time and husband cleans her room the morning before she comes home. It makes me want to scream. My toddler cleans her own room. But I just leave it to them. Idk.
You are smart to pick your
You are smart to pick your battles... sometimes a messy room.. welll.. my SD's would come with bag(s) of stuff for visitation.. and honestly.. it would be a lot of work to neatly put away.. then repack only for a few days visit.. so they kind of lived out of their bags.. and I figured.. well.. cluttered is ok.. filth.. dirty dishes no.. but could shut the door on their clutter.
I'm glad your DH is aware of his potential to get angry.. and while you do say it has only happened a couple of times with your SD.. the fact that you felt you had to diffuse.. you know it is something he does.. probably more often in varying degrees.
And.. he does need to know when she is not being truthful.. and he certainly needs to have her feel some consequences for that.. not screaming at her... but at least hearing that he doesn't find that acceptable. You spared her consequences.. and she probably needed to get them.. though.. if your husband flew outsized off the handle.. stepping in and reminding him to moderate his response.. would be fine.
She is a kid.. testing boundaries.. testing tactics.. and clearly being sensitive is getting her some traction with her dad. It doesn't have to be two extremes.. molly coddle vs yelling. A calm redirection to her task at hand.. then a promise of the bike ride when she is done.. would have been a bit more effective for example.
I love the advice of
I love the advice of moderating his response VS diffusing. That makes so much sense! I'm struggling to figure out if she's trying to play me or if she's being genuine. It's hard with her and I hate that I can't trust anything she says.. My husband got upset with me the other day because I admitted that no, I don't trust her. Of course I don't. She's constantly lying and manipulating. How could I? It's frustrating.. For me, lying and manipulating are two of the worst character traits you could possibly have. My BD isn't without issues but at least she's upfront and will yell/tell you exactly how she feels. She isn't manipulative or sneaky.. I've never handled or been around this type of personality. Tbh any time I find myself involved with someone like SD, I run the other direction. It's toxic. But I can't run so I'm trying to figure out how to correct or even if we can at this point since she's already so old..
Genuine or not? Who cares?
Keeping it simple works IMHO. Standards of behavior and standards of performance. Does she comply or does she violate them?
Whether she defies those genuinely or manipulatively makes no difference. IMHO of course.
As for your volatile DH, he is an adult. A foot up his butt needs to happen too. He should deliver to your parenting expectations with his FFDD. No ignoring her crap and also no blowing his stack disrupting the peace and tranquility of the home for you and your DD. Assertive calm will out perform volatile reaction every time... when it comes to parenting. Trust me. I know from first hand experience regarding my own parenting behaviors.
Set the standards, enforce the standards, apply appropriate consequences when the standards are violated. Lather, rinse, repeat.
IMHO of course.
Sounds like SD15 when she was
Sounds like SD15 when she was that age. And yes, it has gotten worse because BM and DH don't give consequences, they "talk it out." SD is very emotional and highly manipulative. She uses others to get what she wants.
SD15 made DH feel guilty last night because he went to dinner with me & bio son. Mind you, SD was at the gym and not answering DHs phone calls asking if she wanted to go out to eat with us. So what does DH do? He's in the kitchen making SD a frozen pizza while she doesn't get off her @ss. Her 100% knows her manipulative ways, but still falls for it. If your DH doesn't start calling her out on her BS, it will definitely snowball. I speculate BM has boderline personality disorder and SD has mental health issues as well.
IMO, disengage. Let DH deal with her crap. If anything is in the common areas, throw it in her bedroom and shut the door. Out of sight, out of mind. Also, keep her away from your bio as much as possible. I also don't let SD15 be alone with our son. He is 4, but I just don't trust her and don't want her toxic behavior rubbing off on him.
Ugh. Thanks. Interestingly
Ugh. Thanks. Interestingly enough my nanny mentioned noticing my BD acting manipulative/sulky/whiney the past few days. I know exactly where she got it from. I squash it immediately and so does my nanny. Thankfully SD is only here part time... But i tell my BD constantly we do not lie, we do not whine. If she tried any of that crap with me, I ignore it or discipline her even harsher than I would have if she hadn't whined about whatever it is. I try not to let them be alone together but it's hard... They do get along well and are close. My BD and SD play well together and 80% of the time it's is cute and positive! But SD does go hot/cold with my BD and when I see that, i distract and get my daughter so we go do something solo.
I'm sorry she's hot/cold with
I'm sorry she's hot/cold with BD. That makes me sad. It's hard on the kids too.
SD15 refused to go to BS4 birthday last month, but he didn't even notice. She is "cold" 100% of the time. Part of me used to be sad about it, but now I am glad he doesn't know any differently. I think it would be hard to explain to bios as they get older that it's "not their fault" if an older half-sibling doesn't want to play/interact. I wouldn't want my bio to internalize that and think he did anything wrong.
... just something to think about down the road when she gets older.
It's hard
It's hard for these guilty divorced dads to see and respond to lying and manipulation. My SD63 did this all the time, still does. DH87 has always so much wanted her to be "ok" and secretly blames himself that she isn't. I'm thinking back and wondering if he'd ever been strong enough to confront her, hold the line and nip it. Realistically, I think it was already a strong pattern and the divorce didn't help it with BM and DH both trying to be the preferred parent and SD using that to her advantage. Sigh....
It’s all about
Power and control. SD wants to control you and DH. and is doing a good job of it. You and DH must make her do as you want. You have the power and control. Don't give it up