Lay Diagnosis Please - Anyone Know about Child Psychology?
I have a question about my SD7 and in particular my SD5 that some of you 'in the know' may be able to help me with.
They've both been over babied all their lives. I've managed to get them able to do some things on their own, lots of things really, but they still won't EVER take the initiative to do anything for themselves. The real issue for me is a complete lack of empathy from both of them. They are incapable of feeling emotion for anything other than themselves and they always have been. I have never heard either of them talk about anyone or anything else in sympathetic terms. They show no concern for the welfare of hurt animals or people.
My DD3, well, all my children from an early age in fact, were always very affectionate and caring from the earliest age. My DD3 will be sad and have tears in her eyes if a character on a cartoon she's watching is crying. She cares about if the cats are hungry. She's upset if someone is hurt. She has an instinctive need to help, to nurture and to comfort. My SDs don't. Never. Everything is always about them. If you tell them 'Be quiet this morning because daddy is sick and needs to sleep in.' they'll look at you with a blank, uncomprehending look on their faces and just continue being as noisy as ever. They don't CARE about the feelings of other people at all. They simply cannot comprehend that other people have feelings. All my children were empathetic. They were always dragging in stray animals and injured birds or even bugs to nurse back to health. As they got older they brought friends over who needed things. They volunteered to help with charities, etc. I can't see either of my SDs ever giving a damn about anyone but themselves.
My children were also always independent. They didn't want ANYTHING done for them, they wanted to do everything themselves. My DD3 gets up, gets her cereal and milk, makes her toast, butters it and eats her breakfast on her own. She won't LET me help her anymore and she hasn't let me help her for a long, long time. SD7 and SD5 sit their asses at the table and look expectantly at the adults waiting to be served - every morning - even though they've been shown how to get their own things and told to do it themselves for a couple of years now.
SD7 is very bossy and uptight - just like her mother but other than the lack of empathy there isn't a lot I'm concerned about. Well, she lies a lot too.
SD5, on the other hand, I think has some serious problems. She's always been a bully. A sneaky bully. She hides the other kids favourite toys from them or tosses them in the trash and covers them with other things so they can't be found. She lies about everything all the time. She makes sure no one is watching (at least she THINKS no one is watching) then she'll knock my DD3 to the ground then she starts screaming at the top of her lungs and claims that DD3 punched her. SO and I have both seen her perform this act when she didn't know we were watching. It's not just jealousy over DD3 because she was like this before DD3 came along. She's a bully in school too. She was tossed out of preschool for threatening to get a knife to kill another child. Her teacher in kindergarten said that whenever there is any trouble DD5 is right there. She isn't usually in the middle of the trouble anymore but she's usually the one who instigated it. She's gotten much more clever and sneaky and works the situation in a way to be the cause of the problem but then steps back to act like it had nothing to do with her. It's not just me saying this. Her teacher has seen it as well. She is behind intellectually and has no interest in learning. She won't attempt to do anything for herself. She just waits for everything to be done for her. She never does as she's told. She uses a whiny voice all the time - just like her mother. She has to have whatever anyone else is having. Ask SD5 if she wants a banana and she says no. DD3 says she wants a banana so I give her one. Then SD5 will insist that she wants a banana. Give it to her, she peels it and leaves it on the counter without even taking a bite. This goes on all day with food, toys, anything at all.
Both SDs try to get the others to do their dirty work for them. For example, if they want ice cream and we say no they'll go talk another one or DD3 into asking for ice cream or, if DD3 refuses they'll come and tell us DD3 wants ice cream.
Both SDs are very, very manipulative and demanding. They are picky eaters, there are only a handful of dishes they'll eat - garbage mostly and if told that they have to try something new they'll pretend to take a bite then make themselves throw up. SD7 did this just last week.
They were both just assessed by a psychologist who found nothing wrong with them. They were only seen 3 times and the psychologist largely went on what she was told by the parents. I'm sure neither parent mentioned the discipline problems, the lying or the lack of empathy so I can't blame the psychologist for not finding anything.
I still think something is wrong. I don't think it's normal for a child to not care about other people or about animals. I've had 4 children all of whom were very sensitive to the feelings of others.
Am I wrong? Are my bio children the weird ones for having more emotional connections to the rest of the world? Is it normal for kids to be so self-centred? Is it normal for a child of 5 or 7 to see a bird who can't fly because it has an injured wing and NOT want to help it? Is it normal for them to see someone who is sick and still only be concerned about when that sick person is going to put toast in the toaster for them (instead of making their own toast)?
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wow - thanks stepberg There's
wow - thanks stepberg
There's a lot of information there.
Now, what to do about it?
I talk about other people's feelings all the time with these kids trying to get them to think of others. There are so many opportunities for that. For example, even at the dinner table when quick as they can they shove the best food into their mouths so they can get more before other people have managed to even sit down yet I try to tell them that it isn't fair that they've eaten all of the garlic bread and others haven't even had their first serving yet. I've taken them to marches for charity, I talk constantly about people who are less well off or who are ill or underprivileged and talk about how we have a duty to take care of people who need it. When the cat had her hip broken I took them with me to the vet and made them responsible for bringing her food and water her while she was mending. I talked about how poor kitty couldn't move around for the next 8 weeks and would be totally dependent on us to take care of her. They didn't give a damn. Kitty is just a toy for them to play with. They don't see kitty as having any feelings of her own. I talk, talk, talk but nothing makes any difference.
I forgot to mention one very irritating thing that has always been there but which REALLY got to me last week on holiday with them.
They have about a 1.5 degree comfort zone in temperature. If the outdoor temperature varies more than that they are miserable, whinging about how they are either 'roasting' or 'freezing'. I'm not talking about extreme weather here, I'm talking about temperature that is very slightly warm or very slightly cool. If there is a drop of rain they whine that it's 'lashing'.
All they ever do is whine and complain, bitch and moan, whine and complain - just like their mother.
This is a great blog. Lots
This is a great blog. Lots of good information in here actually. If there is something that truly frightens me in a child it is lack of empathy. I picture kids with blank eyes and a cold stare. THAT is really scary to me.
My DS and skids are so not like that at all. If anything they are almost too much the other way, always wanting to save the hurt animal or give away their things to the kids with less.
Actually, it is not uncommon
Actually, it is not uncommon at all for kids this age to be quite Narcissistic. (Which carries many of the same behavioral patterns as being psychopathic.) Read more below.......
[Based on Your Six-Year-Old, by Louise Bates Ames and Frances L. Ilg.]
"Six can, oh so often, be expansive and out-of-bounds, contrary, violent, hard...to live with."(p. 4)
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"Your typical Six-year-old is a paradoxical little person, and bipolarity is the name of the game. Whatever he does, he does the opposite just as readily. In fact, sometimes the choice of some certain object or course of action immediately triggers an overpowering need for its opposite." (p. 1, the first paragraph of the book) [Emphasis in original]
"Six's reversals are truly something to be reckoned with." (p. 2)
"I love you" rapidly changes to "I hate you." (p. 2, 6)
stubborn and can't make up mind (p. 2)
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"The child is now the center of his own universe." (p. 2, 15) [Emphasis in original]
delighted by any silly thing that calls attention to himself; may do silly, show-offy things to call attention to himself when he feels neglected or shut out (pp. 71-72)
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arrogant (p. 7)
self-important ("extremely aware of the importance of being Six") (p. 22)
demands rather than asks (twice on p. 6, 16)
thinks own way is always right (p. 7)
once started, will stick to a course of bad behavior or bad judgment regardless of the inevitability of being punished for it (p. 7)
asks to be flattered and praised as "good," even ("rather sadly and touchingly") following his worst behavior (p. 6)
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can't accept criticism (p. 7)
feelings are hurt over very small criticisms, comments, failures (p. 6)
"He is so extremely anxious to do well, to be the best, to be loved and praised, that any failure is very hard for him." (p. 6)
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wants to win every time (p. 4, 21, 45)
poor sport, can't stand to lose (p. 7, 16)
argumentative and quarrelsome (p. 21)
defiant, pert, fresh, snippy (p. 6, 17)
competitive, combative (p. 20)
belligerent, verbally and physically aggressive (p. 21)
threatens, calls names, gets physically violent (p. 21)
violent temper tantrums may require physical restraint because of striking out (p. 29)
jealous, envious (p. 7, 21)
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to make sure of winning, will cheat or make up own rules (pp. 21-22, 45)
complains that others are cheating and not following the rules (p. 45)
some are very cruel to younger children (p. 22)
does not always tell the truth (p. 16)
will not admit to wrongdoing (p. 41) [Note: A technique is given for getting the facts out of kids that also works with narcissists: instead of asking if they did it, ask how they did it.]
goodness means the things explicitly required or allowed by parents or other authority figures; badness means the things explicitly disapproved of or forbidden (p. 66)
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little forgiveness (p. 22)
very critical of others' conduct (p. 22)
expects friendships to be resumed immediately following tremendous complaint and conflict (p. 22)
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wants to boss (p. 21)
"Many children think their father knows everything -- even what goes on at home while he is at work."(p. 16)
thinks his teacher knows the best and only right way of doing things; may not know which rules to follow when school rules differ from home rules (p. 18)
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"highly undifferentiated -- everything is everywhere" (p. 7)
can't always tell the difference between "yours" and "mine," and so often steals (pp. 39-41)
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"random and unconstructive expenditure of energy" (p. 31)
more interested in merely handling or using tools than in what is accomplished with them (pp. 53-54)
less interested in actual final products than in whatever he may be doing at the moment(p. 56)
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"Sixes love to dress up and pretend they are somebody else...." (p. 49)
And if at 10 almost 11,
And if at 10 almost 11, they're still acting this way, then what?
Then I would enlist the help
Then I would enlist the help of a good therapist. Some things are normal learning and growing behaviors. If a child is acting out at a much younger age then he/she actually is, something may be seriously wrong. Of course, it could just be bad parenting on the BP's part. Children thrive with rules, boundaries, and consequences. Stability and knowing exactly what to expect are all good things in a child's life. Unfortunately, there is usually so much drama being played out that it is seldom about the kids and more about the hurt feeling of the parents.
I agree about seeing a
I agree about seeing a therapist, make sure they get all the info leave nothing out.
I agree with above poster.
I agree with above poster. Children are narcissitic by nature. It is there developmental stage. Ideally, they grow and mature and begin to feel empathy for others. I realize the above article says 7-12-that's a broad age range and I feel like it is even broader than that. Empathy is something that comes about due to incorporating your parents morals and values into your belief system. I guess if the parents have no morals or values or either dont display this to their children then it's going to be really hard for them to even understand the concept of empathy.
Please don't write them off as psychopaths. That's an extremely serious dx and the signs in youth tend to be much more severe than what your skids are exhibiting (setting fires, torturing animals). I would work on teaching them the concept of empathy-I think they are young enough that this is something you can still work on. If a situation occurs in which you feel empathic, turn to your skids and say-and what do you think so and so was feeling? Make up stories and have them guess what the characters are thinking or feeling. Good Luck!
" Empathy is something that
" Empathy is something that comes about due to incorporating your parents morals and values into your belief system. I guess if the parents have no morals or values or either dont display this to their children then it's going to be really hard for them to even understand the concept of empathy."
Agreed and this is what DH and I have been doing with SS10. Trying to instill good values and morals at every opportunity that presents itself. I think SS10 is still malleable to some extent so we'll continue with our talks in the hopes that it will one day sink in.
Lots of info online about
Lots of info online about mental disorders in children.
I have been dealing with this
I have been dealing with this too with my skids. I started researching more on it when I was trying to understand my ss11 who is diagnosed mental retardation. Has been a big eye opener and helps me in understanding my sd14 a bit too. Neither have any empathy and ss will hurt animals and others unprovoked. Both will do anything anyone tells them to do because they cannot think for themselves whatsoever which gives me a big concern. It's bad enough that a stranger could walk up and tell them to do something and they would without questioning or any hesitation. There are many things that these two will do and easily 95% of them are signs that children with abandonment issues have. I'm not referring to the "abandonment" they feel from divorce but caused from the lack of bonding formed with a parent from birth onwards. This can truly cause the symptoms that can be later diagnosed as mental retardation as in my ss. Because never having the bonding and love shown as babies they are slow to develope emotionally and even sometimes physically. With my skids it is mainly due to the bm and because dh worked so much he wasn't there for them enough to make up for the lack of bonding they received from their bm. No matter what we do here in our home and with now over a year of counciling I have yet to see any improvement in either skid. It does scare me because the lack of concern for others can easily lead to someone being hurt badly because of them.