ANOTHER QUESTION - Court Orders for transportation
I'm the SM of 3 Skids. I have pretty much been the primary mom for most of their lives. 3 years ago the BM took us to court for standard visitation rights, she wanted tax exemptions, she wanted a decrease of child support (She's only obligated to pay $180 per month for 3 kids), and she wanted us to provide all transportation for visitations. She lives 40 minutes away.
The judged denied everything except he ordered that we provide 50% of the transportation. We have diligently followed the court order to a tee since then.
However, she's several thousand dollars in arrearages on child support, she only sees them EOW although she's entitled to see them more then that, she doesn't provide for them in any other way, nor does she take them to any events or appointments. We also found out yesterday that she's been driving on a suspended license since 2005.
Since she has defaulted on all the court orders she's responsible for my husband has stated he no longer feels we should provide 50% of the transportation.
If we stop doing this what are the consequences???
- Lulubelle's blog
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RE: ANOTHER QUESTION - Court Orders for transportation
You need to hold-up your half of the transporation and all other court orders. I've been a step-dad for 11 years and can tell you from personal experience that the "tit for tat" mentality may feel good in the short-term, it's bad for you, your spouse, and the kids.
You would also be in contempt of court. If there is a significant amount of arrearage, contact your state's Attorney General Child Support Divion office.
Do the right thing at all times and eventually (it may be a L_O_N_G time) things do work out.
What happens if we are held
What happens if we are held in contempt? Is it a fine?
among other things
Possible jail time, fines, and other sanctions are possible for contempt.
You don't have to put them
You don't have to put them in the car with her driving if she is not legally allowed to drive. I already went through this with my exH when he lost his license after a DUI. If shehas someone to drive her to get them, then yes, but not if she's driving. Just call the cops and give them her plate number so they can take her off the road! I would get a judge to put in there that she's not allowed to drive the children with no license, in case she picks up with someone else driving but then tries to drive them around after she has them. Then she'd be in contempt & driving without a license.
"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy"
Child support and parenting time
Child support and parenting time do not have anything to do with each other. Parenting time can't be withheld because the other parent is in arrears.
If you have a problem with things as they are, go the proper route and go back to court and have orders changed.
I don't want to withhold her
I don't want to withhold her visitations. I just think she should provide all the transportation (i.e. her husband) if she's not going to provide support.
In my book...
If it is only as specific as 50 percent, then I would either drive 20 mins her direction and offer to meet her there at a specific time, then leave if she doesn't show, OR I would tell her to pick them up and agree to go get them at the end of visitation.
That's 50/50 in my book. Then she is forced to comply or not take her visitation and you are still within the conditions in the court order.
"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." ~Geoffrey F. Abert
Transportation
Our order states each parent is responsible for picking-up the child if the parents cannot agree. Because we live 300+ miles apart from BD, each pays for a one-way flights.
They live 7 hrs apart. That
They live 7 hrs apart. That leaves one parent driving 14 hrs in one day...not good for either.
"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy"
sorry, wrong post! Disregard
sorry, wrong post! Disregard above statement!
Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy"
The problem sounds two-fold...
It seems you don't want to do all the driving, but you also don't want to break the court order. Problem is, you likely don't want an unlicensed idiot driving your kids around either. I can tell you from experience, no matter how stupid or unfair the court orders are, you have to follow them. Persue trying to change them in the meantime, but do't break them. Judges (some) are very unbiased or try to be, and often don't care about fair or unfair, they only want their rulings followed. I was forced to let my 3 yr old see his father unsupervised even though I had proof he was using drugs in from of my son and teaching him about them. It took 4 years in court continuously, but the judge was always very determined to get me to do what she wanted (fair or not, right or not). be very careful when it comes to these matters and do everything by the book.
one more thing...
Be kinder than necessary to everyone! We all have our battles.
I don't know who moved, but in my case the BM decided to move to anther county (2hrs away) and we held roots here where the kids all grew up...so in her case-we make her do all the driving since it was her choice to split! She comes to her old house on the weekends to see the kids and lives with her husband far far away during the weekdays. i have only picked up the kids from her place far away once. It was in the summer and the oldest had it with her crap and asked me to pick him up 4 days early while she was at work.
It depends on how you play the game and how you interpret ...
the judgement. I recommend that you mandate that she provide transportation to her location and you and DH provide transportation from her location to you.
If she does not show up then that is her deal and the kids need to know that Mom could not make it. Of more accurately Mom chose not to take visitation. Facts are not good or bad they are just facts.
If she shows up to pick them up don't put them in her car if she cannot show a valid DL. Of course you need to be ready to show her a valid DL when you or DH pick the kids up.
If you hold her accountable to follow the rules an she refused to pick the kids up then you are not on the hook for 50% of the transportation.
50% of the travel cost is fairly standard in Visitation Judgements in my experience. Our judgement is very clear. Each party is responsible for the transportation to get the kid to their location. SpermDad (or more accurately his mommy) pays to get my Skid to him. My wife (and I) pay to get the Skid home from visitation.
For us, there is only another 16.5 months and my SS ages out of the visitation components of the Judgement. 16.5 months and BioDad gets no visitation and still has to pay CS until the Skid is 21 as long as he is a full time college student. I can't wait to see the look on his face when he realizes this little gem of a rule that is in place in the county he moved the Custody/Visitation/Support case to. Ha! Karma is a wonderful thing. I also can't wait until he or his mother call to arrange visitation and we say "what visitation". Once the kid is 18 they can pay 100% of the travel costs if they want to see the kid.
My guess is that after he turns 18 he won't see his BioDad or anyone in his BioDad's family for a very, very long time.
Sorry for the evil Sparent rant. }:)
Best regards,
Though support and visitation are separate ....
I personally ascribe to the "you gotta pay to play" mentality.
The CP has to support the kid even if the NCP stops paying support. Why should the NCP get the joys of parenting if they are not willing to provide support for the child?
Though I am sure there are many extenuating circumstances out there that may mitigate some of the "pay to play" perspective in general the children have to be provided for and both bioparents should be on the hook for that support. And they should do it willingly.
In our case if BioDad was in arrears on CS I would quote him a price for plane tickets and tell him that no tickets would be purchased until he sent a money order for half the price of tickets. When the money order arrived I would tell him that that money would be applied to his CS arrearage and would not buy tickets until he back CS was covered. If the NCP can't pay CS how are they going to buy plane tickets?
I know, another evil StepParent moment. }:)
I am in a bit of a mood and am at the end of my rope for idiot BioParents who play power games instead of providing for and participating in their childrens lives.
Best regards,
How old are they? Screw
How old are they? Screw that, I wouldn't do it!
"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy"
PAS????? Hmmmm?
Dany,
I read my last two posts and can understand how, if taken totally out of context and as stand alone statements, you could get to your opinion.
You are absolutely correct that this is not a game and that children are not pawns.
My situation is that I have been the full time Dad to my SS since he was ~18mos old. He has had visitation with his BioDad the whole time. In the past 15 years there have been many occasions where we have given up our holiday time with our Son so that SpermDad could have some time with him and even multiple occasions where we have covered the Sperm's travel costs so that SpermLoser could see his kid.
The interesting part ....... SpermDad pawns the kid off on GranMa along with the other three out of wedlock spawn (my Skids half sibs)and rarely sees the kid even during visitation.
IF SpermDad was in arrears on CS then any money he sent to pay his half of travel would be applied to CS. I would keep applying the payments to CS until he got a clue that he should buy his own damned plane tickets. We have been doing his worthless ass a favor for years by buying a round trip ticket and splitting the cost 50/50. He played so many games around that deal that we finally started buying our half of travel as a one way ticket even though it costs us more. We told him that we would buy the return flights when we received the tickets from him to get the kid to him. No tickets, no kid. We are more than willing to cover our half of the costs but if he is too frickin stupid to figure it out it is neither my responsibility nor my intention to help him.
This is far from a game. I committed 15yrs ago to my SS that I would never deny him a relationship or time with his BioDad. I never have, I have paid for some of SpermDad's travel costs, we have given up some of our time all so I could deliver on that promise.
We have never denied visitation and we have never lied to my SS. When he asks a question we answer with fact based truth. If his SpermDad does something stupid that my SS asks about we confirm or correct my SS's perspective with fact and not judgemental statements. His Dad is an idiot but he will not hear that opinion from us. Fortunately my SS is a sharp kid and has figured out his BioDad's idiot status on his own.
As I have already agreed, non of this is a game.
However, over the years I have come to enjoy barring the Sperms idiot asses as a kind of sport. The sad part is that they make it way too easy. (Does your mom still love me?, If you could talk your mom in to dropping CS then I could buy your sibs nice stuff like you have?, You don't deserve that nice stuff that you have and it is not fair that you have it and you Dad and sibs don't? (SpermGrandMa comment), Visiting me is more important than school, you should come early and stay longer even if you miss school?)
I have more than 15yrs of idiot crap that THEY (BioDad, BioPaternalGrandMa, etc ......) have spewed to my Skid and could make this list dozens of pages long.
The synopsis of my recommendations to the original post were that visitation cannot be denied even if the NCP is not paying CS. However, any documented judgement is open to interpretation and there is nothing wrong with interpreting the judgement in a way that allows for the best interest of the child from the interpreter's perspective.
Lulubelle indicated in her opening post that she was frustrated with having to provide 50% of the travel costs while BM was in arrears on CS and was frustrated that the BM had been transporting the Skids on a revoked Drivers License for the past four years. 50% of travel is 50% of travel but how that 50% is distributed is open to interpretation. Hence my recommendation that BM pick the kids up (if she shows)at the beginning of the visitation and Lulu's DH can go get the kids and bring them home at the end of visitation.
As far as the revoked Drivers License, if BM shows up to get the kids driving a car on a revoked license then there is no frickin possibility that I would put my Skids in that car with her and in fact would immediately dial 911 and have her ass arrested for driving without a license and for endangering the children. I believe that a parent that knowingly allows their child to get in a car driven by anyone (including the other parent) with a revoked license should be arrested for child endangerment.
Any Custody/Visitation/Support order is open to interpretation. As long as Support nor Visitation is denied and the NCP does not kidnap the kids from the CP then the details can be interpreted however the parties involved think they can get away with and should interpret the judgment to their best advantage in order to enforce their will as far as what is in the best interest of the child(ren).
Hey, but that is just me.
You may have picked up on the level of disdain I have for my SS's BioDad. I cannot stand the man, have no use for him and absolutely detest his existence. He has earned this perspective because he has done nothing to justify respect. Respect is not given it is earned. He has not earned it.
Regardless of my opinion of BioDad, I have never denied my SS a relationship or visitation with the man or his equally worthless family (the half sibs are not worthless they are just victims of genetics and stupid adult decisions). They can call each other any time they want and they can have visitation within the guidelines of the Judgement. I can count on one hand the number of times any of THEM have called my SS in more than 15 years. I can count on less than one hand the number of times my SS has called them. It is not my nor my wife's responsibility to have my SS call his BioDad or the SpermFamily. I have never once seen any of them with their dialing fingers in a cast.
Best regards,
BioPaternalGrandMa pays the CS and half of travel.
Dany,
BioDad pays and has spent nothing. And it DOES matter where the money comes from. A kid should know that their parents are stepping up. IMHO.
Far from being "GLAD" that my SS does not have a good relationship with his BioDad (The man is not nor has ever been a father), I am sad that his BioDad is an idiot devoid of anything remotely resembling character. My SS enjoys spending time with his half sibs but comes home frustrated with his BioDad's lack of character and inability to make a viable adult decision. I am GLAD that my wife and I are here to counter BioDad's idiocy and to give my SS an example of what people of character do to provide for their child(ren), bio or step.
I have always insured my SS has a relationship with BioDad. That does not mean I have to like it or like BioDad.
I don't say that half the travel costs are HIS, the Judgement says half the travel costs are his. If the judgement said anything else I would keep his worthless ass in court until the judgement said 50% of the travel costs were his. But, fortunately, even idiot Family Court Judges get something right occasionally.
BioDad abandoned my wife (then 18 though she was 16yo when SS was born) and their infant (my SS) in a rathole of a travel trailer to run off with another 16yo. Wife graduated from high school with her class and moved out of state to attend an accelerated UnderGrad program so she could support herself and SS.
BioDad did not sign his rights away because he considers his kids as SexTrophys. His actions over the past ~16yrs prove it.
As for the term you take offense to, I apologize for that. Early in my time on StepTalk several members took offense to that term and I worked hard to stop using it. I have lapsed and again I apologize. I guess my issue right now is that SS is on spring break visitation and my aggravation level is high.
I will once again relegate the offensive term to the scrap heap and attempt to stick with BioDad (idiot, moron, dipshit, etc) but not the term you take offense to.
Keep 'em commin by the way, I have an infinite number of fact based answers for ya!
Best regards,
Are you trying to pick a fight or what?
Dany
I have never said that a NCP who does not pay CS should be denied visitation. My question "Why should the NCP get the joys of parenting if they are not willing to provide support for the child?" was purely rhetorical and designed to illicit discussion.
In response to your question "Or are you a hypocrite?" I reply,
there is an older thread discussing whether or not teens should have a say in whether or not they visit the NCP.
I answered no. If the judgement says they visit then they visit regardless of the status of CS.
However, if there is extenuating information that may change visitation once in a while (School summer trips, weekend football games,etc....) then the NCP should be reasonable and the CP should be flexible in allowing some other time so the SKid and NCP can visit.
In our case, early in our ongoing blended family adventure, we moved to a different school district that has mandatory full time kindergarten. The judgement stated that the the NCP would get a 10day visitation in Sept/Oct (in addition to 6wks summer, 1wk winter and 1wk spring)until SS entered 1st grade. With the move there was no way SS could do the Fall visitation without missing school. So, we gave SpermDad two summers at 7wks (14days for the 10days he lost).
On another occasion we had prearranged Christmas visitation so that SS could be with his Mom and I and his Mom's family for Christmas then go to his Dads for 10days after Christmas (BioDads court ordered time for that winter). In early Sept we pre-puchased tickets for the trip to spend Christmas with my I-Ls and drop SS off with BioDad. On Sept 11 the twin towers came down. The airline canceled unaccompanied minor travel and my SS's return trip was canceled. Since we were delivering the kid to BioDad it was BioDad's responsibility to deliver the kid back home. That would have necessitated BioDad buying a round trip ticket so that he could escort SS home to us.
In order to insure that SS got his time with BioDad that winter and to help BioDad out by not forcing him to buy the additional round trip so he could accompany SS we gave up our time with SS, dropped him off with BioDad before Christmas and brought him home with us after Christmas.
So ....... I would say that rather than being a hypocrite I have beyond a shadow of a doubt proven over the years that I am not.
That said, BioDad has proven over the same number of years that he is a frickin idiot.
Best regards,
I believe
that who's ever time it is should be the one to go and get them. For instance on our Wednesday night we got get SS and then take him to school but on our Friday night we got get SS and his BM should come get him at 6 on Sunday. However we cannot depend on her to respect our time so we do all the traveling and it is court ordered 50/50. I think we will use that when we got to mediation then court soon!
Transport of the kid to the adults location is pretty standard.
Our judgement is very clear about it.
Below is an exerpt from my SS's Custody/Support/Visitation judgement.
"The cost of transportation for all visitation shall be handled by the parties as follows: Each party shall be responsible to provide transportation to bring the minor child from the child's location to the party's location. For Example, Mr. (BioDad) shall arrange and be responsible for the child's transportation to Mr. (BioDad's) residence for visitation. Petitioner (Mrs. Rags) shall arrange and be responsible to provide transportation back to her residence. etc (verbiage about acceptable forms of transportation)..... Each party shall cooperate in making travel arrangements for the child's return including driving the child to the airport if necessary."
Simple and to the point.
Best regards,
Unfortunately...
Often times the system does not work. My good friend has a deadbeat ex. She went to court to keep him from taking their daughter, unless he had a decent place of his own, or stayed with his parents. This was b/c he took their 7 year old to a different woman friend's house every couple months. The court agreed with my friend on that one. He also was terribly behind on CS and in arrears from the get go. One Fri afternoon my friend's daughter asked my friend to pack food for her to take over b/c "Daddy said he pays you to buy my food." She did it, just to make sure her daughter could have something to eat on the times he decided to take her. Then he started canceling, and trying to get the schools to give my friend a hard time. She would send her daughter's school work over for him to see, and he would keep it/toss it/never send it back. Then he would call the teacher claiming my friend didn't send anything, stuff like that. He hit on other moms at the school, and even a few teachers. SLIME.
Then...after a year or so of barely seeing his daughter, he remarried and moved several states away. Then he went back to court to force a new visitation plan- ONCE A MONTH weekend flying a 10 year old to see him. He worked for an airline part time so said his daughter could fly standby every month, and wouldn't chip in for a kid escort. Then he lost his job and got a new one somewhere else and said he could no longer fly his daughter. The court ordered my friend to fly or drive her to him. She drove her. Meanwhile he lost his benefits so the court waved them onto the SF's insurance, costing them a ton of money (my friend had her own benefits at the time for 80/pay, that were far better.) So they had to fork out several more hundred dollars a month for benefits originally ordered for the dad to pay.
He never pays his portion of the medical bills and is a TON behind on CS. Yet my friend has to drive her child 7 hours each way once a month, and most of school breaks. Meanwhile he pays nothing for transportation, and when her daughter gets there?
He and his new wife leave her with the W's 15 yo daughter while they go out to bars with friends. He works afternoons too, so he sleeps all morning, then leaves his daughter with his wife all day.
AND still the courts say this idiot deserves his visitation.
I think a major overhaul is long overdue with this system. This kid calls her mom sobbing daily when there, begging to come home. My friend is not encouraging that behavior. The idiot father is by not putting his daughter's needs first.
He's done other crap too. When she was 9 he took her to a salon to get her hair "striped" if you know what that means. NINE. And when my friend called him on it, he said she was HIS daughter and he wanted her to look better by getting her hair done like his wife's was.
My friend's daughter looks just like her. That's what he was trying to change.
Creep.
Anyway....
Sorry to babble. I think Cru and Rags have some good points about deadbeat parents needing to make an effort to be parents if they want to see their kids, and that includes paying for their transportation, food, clothing, while in their care. AND CS.
And Dany, I think your situation is different. PAS against a parent who is providing is totally different. Your SKIDS BM has no right to with hold visitation. Your SKIDS aren't unsafe in your and DH's care. And he is responsible and provides for them.
It's apples to oranges in my opinion. If someone is jumping through hoops to see their children, then they should not be denied. If someone feels entitled and isn't providing anything or contributing to their care? What else might they neglect while the kdis are with them?
"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." ~Geoffrey F. Abert
Good book to read
Has anyone read Divorce Poison by Dr. Richard Warshack? I just started it, but so far it's really good. We are dealing with PAS and I hope this book will help.
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"All power is from within therefore under our control." - Robert Collier