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Need help trying to "teach" a life lesson...

Stick's picture

I need some help trying to explain the difference between letting SD know that it is OK that she "knows" she is pretty, but it is NOT OK to express it, or tell people how pretty she is.

SD has grown up into a beautiful girl. It is interesting to go to the mall with her, or anywhere, and see the looks she gets. She is very pretty. I am happy for her that she has grown up.

BUT... my parents - and my husband's parents too - taught us that you never acknowledge if you think you look good. It doesn't matter if you look good - acknowledgement by yourself is vanity. I guess MIL's favorite saying to one of her son's (not DH) used to be "Vanity... thy name is XXX".!!

SD has vascillating self-esteem. She generally has somewhat low self esteem, but then comes out with these statements where she expresses how pretty a picture of her is, or she'll describe herself in very attractive terms. DH is a very very handsome man (out of my league!) but he never ever expresses that about himself. As you can guess, BM is somewhat the opposite, always saying how "cute" and "childlike" she is and how "everyone loves her" - and this is BM talking about HERSELF, not about SD... so I can see where SD gets some of it from.

How do you express to a child that it is good to have confidence from your looks, but inappropriate to be vain, or cocky about them?

One thing I did was say ... When you look at X & X's (family) wedding picture and say "Oh you two look beautiful! This is a great picture!" The woman will say "Oh thank you, I like that picture too." and the man would say "Yeah, aren't we a good looking couple?" One sounds nice and demure and modest and the other sounds vain and stuck up.

She said she understood, but she was SOBBING the entire time.. because I told her she had to stop referring to her senior picture as pretty. (It came up because she was showing our niece her picture and said "Isn't this a pretty picture"? , and I don't generally hear people look at their own photos and call them pretty... - Do you?"

Has anyone run into this?

Comments

Stick's picture

Thanks Maux... I tried to explain it to her, and she was crying so hard. And I felt bad, but I didn't back down. I just asked her What it was about the conversation that was making her cry so hard. Like - was she embarrassed? Or did she think I was saying she was wrong? What was it that made her cry?

And then she was saying, ... "Well, what if I say, 'Thank you, I think I look pretty too in that photo'" .. and I told her "No, a thank you" is enough... or even just saying "Thank you I like that picture too", implies that she does like her image in that photo. We all have said "Ohhh I hate that picture of me"! And no one has to ask why!! Smile

But thanks for asking. She does have very bad self esteem, and it's a constant battle because she has to learn these lessons and I try to do it without hurting her self esteem more.

By the way - school photos have always been an issue because every year for the first 5 or 6 years I knew her, her mom would greet her school pictures with "Oh SD!! Why do you have to look like that? Why can't you smile? Why can't you wear your hair like this??" So it's a tough issue for her.

Thank you for responding..

Stick's picture

It also sucks because while I am aware that she has very low self-esteem, I also have to temper my own anger (?) , distaste is more the word - for when she acts like that. I hate it, and DH does too. So, it grates on me!! (And when you said you would gag... believe me, when it came out of her mouth, I shot her a look like... Umm?? Excuse me?? " But I waited until I could gather my thoughts before i said anything!! Smile

lastchance's picture

I agree with Maux that she seems to have self-esteem issues. When people are confident in themselves they don't generally feel the need to point out how attractive they are. I think anyone your SD gets close to will clue in to this insecurity of hers eventually. I had friends growing up that would say similar things, fishing for a compliment or an agreement, at the very least. It was ANNOYING! My plan of attack was to ignore the comment. Eventually, when they weren't getting the response they desired, they stopped making those obnoxious comments. Granted, they probably pulled these tactics on the next person, but meh, what did I care...it wasn't me!!! Wink

JustAnotherSM's picture

Wow, this is a tricky one. I have a beautiful niece who is 8 years old. She has been told all of her life how pretty she is, and often strangers want to buy her a gift or give her candy because she's so cute. And if you ever tell her she's pretty, she'll respond "I know" with this little princess attitude. It's disgusting. So I can understand how you feel.

Maybe if you focus less on the pretty part of it and more on the fact that you have to be careful with what you say, then SD might be more receptive. Kinda like if you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all. Well, if SD always talks about how pretty she is she may hurt someone else's feelings because they aren't as pretty. IDK, this will probably only work if she is empathic though.

Stick's picture

JustAnother SM... Thank you!! I think I will definitely use the line that she could actually be hurting someone else's feelings because they aren't as pretty.... Thank you!!! I really think that could help her. And I understand what you mean about her empathy.. I will be careful on how I word it...

Stick's picture

Thanks DPW!! Great to hear you and see you!! (prrrt - oh excuse me!) Wink

I think you are right about the honest intent and how people wouldn't get that... Thanks!!

PrincessFiona's picture

Your explaination and response to her seems very sensitive and heartfelt. I think it's one of those things that most kids learn little by little along the way as they are growing up. Some kids, like our steps, suddenly are shocked to find out they have been somehow less than perfect. Which I think is what we all try to avoid by voicing our concerns to the guilt parenting parents we are married to.

If I were to witness my own bios making similar comments I would probably make a light hearted, sarcastic "conceited much??' comment to let them know they were off base. However I certainly wouldn't take that approach with my SD, I can't the bonding and respect is not there. I think what you said was perfect.

Stick's picture

AstepAtove - thank you for the kind words. She was crying so hard, I felt so bad. She has such low self esteem I don't want to hurt her anymore.. but I don't want it to turn into narcissistic behavior either. So thank you for the support because last night, I couldn't even sleep I felt like such a big meanie!

Stick's picture

StepAside - She was crying.. pretty hard. And yes, it is the conversation that I need to have with her for 3 reasons..

1. Her mother won't have the conversation with her because her mother does NOT know how to really effectively give her any kind of message. When she compliments her it's over the top - "You're a Star!!" "You always looks so beautiful!" . BM USED TO BE (past) overly negative. When that was causing issues with her daughter, she went the complete opposite, and now never says anything really negative to SD.

2. Her father is traveling for work, SD lives with me most of the time. So her dad doesn't hear her say those things all the time, like I do.

3. I think if it came from her dad, she would have been even more hurt / upset. And if it came from her mom, she would have been pissed off.

So I understand where you concern is coming from, but since SD lives with me, I figured I'm the one to say it. Although I have been thinking about asking SD's therapist...

Moon Child Step Mom's picture

I’m referencing my own childhood with this one… I mentioned about a week back that I had a nanny named Ms.Carmela… well she “wasn’t my mother” as much as we aren’t the mothers of our step kids, but guess what? I respected the hell out of her like she was my mother. She played a HUGE hand in raising me, and I respected her as an adult AND as a caregiver… but I digress…

When I was in 8th grade maybe? 7th or 8th… I finally had my braces removed, got the spiral perm I had been torturing my mother over for years (it was the 80’s people… cut me some slack!) and basically I was starting to think I was the proverbial sheeeet. Well Ms.Carmela over heard me and some girlfriends comparing ourselves to other girls in the class and she busted in my room, in our faces, with that VERY no nonsense voice of hers… “Umm-Umm… know what makes a person pretty? Being humble enough not to say so… there’s nothing uglier than someone braggin on themselves. Remember it.”

I may be paraphrasing a little… probably cleaning it up… but it was a lesson none the less. Almost too much of a lesson… I’m the worst person at taking a compliment! But I’d rather be humble than a snob… it’s never easy being the teacher, but I’m so grateful for the good ones I had.

Stick's picture

Thanks Moon Child.. I may use that line! "Being humble enough not to say so, makes someone more attractive!"

Willow2010's picture

Hmmm. I see what you are saying, but I don’t really know why. If she is doing it a lot. Like going around and telling people to “look at me, don’t I look pretty” I could see having a talk with her.

But I guess your example is what makes me a little nervous about this. I remember when my daughter got her senior pictures. She looked gorgeous. And she knew it. She picked out the ones that she thought she looked best in and was soooo proud of them. I could not imagine making her cry over them!! Ugh. KWIM!

Stick's picture

Willow - I didn't make her cry on purpose. I tried to say it as gently as possible. And I have no issue with her saying that she liked her picture. I just have seen her say to more than one person that she agrees that she is pretty in the photo.... Also, she had written a poem about an incident in her life, and in the poem she described herself very beautifully. She IS beautiful. Her perceptions are correct... but it was almost written as "loving herself" which I don't see very often. Even when women here describe themselves in a "better" fashion than BM.. they don't get into their long thick dark hair blah blah and their long eyelashes and dark eyes and go into very descriptive terms to describe how pretty those features are. I like that she knows... I worry that she can project vanity...

If it was a 1 time thing - I would have let it go. It has been happening quite a bit in the past few years - and more so lately.

Also, she continually says things about how good she does things, and how she doesn't like when she doesn't do something well, because she does everything well, kind of deal. She is very talented, and very smart. So when she compares herself to "normal" (that's her word) kids in "normal" classes .. I correct her... (She takes advanced classes.)

She's a normal girl... There's nothing wrong with not being good at something.

So , it's been an ongoing thing.

Stick's picture

BlendedFam - Believe me... It took many times of her saying how pretty the picture was before I told her to watch how she responds to it.

What got me going was she was showing the picture to someone, and without prompting said "Isn't that picture pretty"? Even though she had been pointing out pictures of the entire family, and the niece's own mom to the niece, the only picture she complimented was her own. The niece was too young to get it.

I give her so much reassurance - as does everyone else. The girl hears how pretty she is at least 1x day (from me and others) if not more. ... So I worry that it is getting to be too much.

And what you wrote, is exactly what I worry about - if she's stuck up, her contemporaries will let her know... But they won't know or care that she does have self-esteem issues. So I worried that they could actually be harsher than I was, or that she would end up crying over something like that, and putting herself in a bad spot. It's exactly her contemporaries that I am trying to make her understand that it doesn't always sound good. Does that make sense?

Stick's picture

DPW - yes, you do... I completely understand... She had such low self-esteem before. I mean, we have seen it, her therapist has seen it so I know she has had low self-image. So I try not to overdo it, but then, when I hug her or when she is ready to go out, I'll say she looks nice, or whatever. The other message I try to give her is that every woman has SOMETHING - ONE THING they don't like about themselves, and that it doesn't matter... No one - not even supermodels are perfect... (Because while she says she is pretty, she also thinks she is heavy, or doesn't like this or that...) So it's a real balancing act...

Willow2010's picture

or even just saying "Thank you I like that picture too", implies that she does like her image in that photo
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I see nothing wrong with saying "thank you, I like that piture too"

Why is it a bad thing to imply that she likes her image?

Stick's picture

Willow - there is nothing wrong with saying "thank you, I like that picture too"... that's what I wanted her to say. What I didn't want her to say was "I think I look pretty too"... which is what she had been saying - and not always with a thank you in front of it.

I told her the difference between saying "Thank you, I like that picture too" and "Thank you, I think I look pretty there too". I think they SOUND different.

So, yes, again - "Thank you, I like that picture too" is a GOOD sentence! At least that's what I was trying to get at...

cacklesacademy's picture

Stick,this is a post i am really interested in too.
With my step daughter,the comments made are particularly 'unladylike',and,quite crude to say the least(Generally,it's,'most men want to get into my knickers',or,letting people know how pretty she thinks she is)My step daughter is probably average looking,but,i find it quite upsetting when she makes these statements to others,and is then laughed at,or worse,made fun of because other's think otherwise.I feel almost angry on her behalf,but,i wonder why she has to open herself up to ridicule and humilaition from others,as like yourself,i have been brought up to believe that this is very unnatractive.
Perhaps it does boil down to self esteem issues?
Personally,i have always turned a blind eye to it and never discussed it with my husband,my husband encourages it if anything, and has placed me in some very embarrassing situations where he has played along with it,but i am very interested in how other's would respond.

Chavez's picture

I have a SD that is 15 and she is pretty insecure about her looks. She is a pretty girl but not striking or anything. She OFTEN asks me if she looks ok, does she look pretty, etc. If there is a good picture of her, she will say "Oh this is a good picture of me" or something along those lines. When she asks me if she's pretty I tell her that yes, she is pretty, but beauty is not all on the outside. I remind her to think about XXX (a girl we know) because she is freaking gorgeous but she's a complete B and because she's so snotty it makes her terribly unattractive. Another answer I give SD15 is yes, you are pretty, but remember that pretty is as pretty does. Smile

Willow2010's picture

'unladylike',and,quite crude to say the least(Generally,it's,'most men want to get into my knickers',
+++++++++
Now that is bad! yuk

stepmasochist's picture

Could you perhaps remind her that confidence is not based solely on appearance? Does your SD have any thing accomplishments or talents that she's proud of or should be proud of like being a good student or athlete or creative in some way? Has she ever pushed herself to complete something that was difficult for her, but she did it successfully?

I know it's just the way things are, but I hate the pressure that is put on girls to be attractive. It's like either you're good looking or you're worthless. I think in order to build healthy self-esteem, girls need something to be confident in about themselves that isn't so superficial.

I like what moonchild said about what the woman who helped raised her said. Beauty comes from within and vanity is not pretty.

Perhaps, if she's in or has ever been in any competive sport or activity instead of referring to "pretty" when you talk to her, you can talk about vanity in terms of a braggart in say basketball, debate or track or whatever.
I mean, jocks do that to a certain extent, but I'm sure you can fit the convo so that the point gets across. Or how about the nerdy kid going - "I am so smart. It sucks to be anyone who's not as smart as me." see what I'm saying?

Stick's picture

Stepmasochist... SD has plenty of other accomplishments that she also takes pride in, and even then sometimes, she'll give an answer that borders on narcissistic.

I do see what you are saying... I just really want her to know that no matter what her accomplishments are or are not, she needs to be happy with herself as a person - on the whole... and not what she has "done".

That's really what I want her to know more than anything - is to be happy with who she is inside... instead of outside, or what grades she got, or what other thing she has done.

The kid is talented - smart, creative, a great drawer, poet.. She's in advanced classes and does well. But she gets crushed if someone gets a higher grade than her... because she thinks that she is - I hate to say it - but better than a lot of kids in the scholastic department. So I am dealing with that as well... Bringing her to realize that you don't have to be smart to be a good person... and you don't have to be pretty. But you have to be humble and nice...

stepmasochist's picture

I'm really glad you posted this because I can see my SD11 having this problem in years to come. She's a beautiful kid, very smart and naturally athletic and also - very, very competitive. She's getting more and more wrapped up in her appearance as time goes on, which I expect to a certain extent from a girl approaching adolescence.

I'm glad I read this and I hope I can retain some of it so if the time comes I can gently bring her nose out of the clouds without crushing the so very fragile thing that is a young woman's ego. Which reminds me, I probably need to stop putting it off and go ahead and read "Reviving Ophelia" in preparation for my two SDs teenage years.

Stick's picture

Thank you so much to everyone that took the time to answer this... I appreciate the insight... and assistance.

PrincessFiona's picture

You SD sounds very much like mine. I can relate so much. You have described many of the same personality traits that I see. My SD is also very intellegent, attractive (although not overly so), athletic, very photogenic, pretty much is good at whatever she chooses to do. Although I've come to realize that she 'chooses' to not do something if someone is better at it than her. What always bothers me is that she is sooo critcal of others, as if everyone must be at her standards or they aren't worth anything.

And I get tired of hearing how smart she is, how good she sings, how great she is at sports...on and on and on.

Her BM showers her constantly with exagerated praise. I don't think it can possibly be healthy. And she is becoming a vain, conceited little girl. I only hope that peer preasure tames some of it. Otherwise her life may become very lonely as no one likes to spend time with people like that.

hismineandours's picture

I had this conversation with my dd several years ago-she is only 12. Almost 17 is pretty late to be having it. My dd gets many compliments as well-however she also recognizes that she also knows many other girls that are pretty. She also has a really great personality and is smart. I really work on complimenting her on these things rather than her looks. I can look at a photo of myself and think, "gee, I look pretty in this pic" or I can see another and think, "i look like crap". When people have complimented me on a pic, I might say-"yeah, i like this pic too" or "Its one of my fave pics"-I dont think that is being boastful at all. Truthfully I think I look bad in most photos so I am always excited to see one that flatters me. If your sd was talking to a much younger child, maybe she was just trying to make conversation about the pics-it sounds as if her statement was pretty childlike.

Stick's picture

UPDATE - I took SD to get her hair cut today and we were talking about the pink in her hair, and how she is ready for some of it to go away the next time she goes in. While there, I showed the stylist SD's prom photo and her Senior picture. Of course, the stylist said how great both pictures were, and how pretty SD looked.

SD smiled, and said thank you, and giggled and that was it. I know it made her feel good to hear it, and from the outside, you could tell she appreciated the compliment. I was happy for her.

She has been hugging me like crazy that past few months, and the past few days too. I really feel like she "gets it". Sometimes I think she just needs a little help.