You are here

He moved out

Ram's picture

I'd like to clear something up. I am not a troll. I came here for support and appreciate the support I received. When I posted my last blog the first few people who responded told me I had over reacted. I decided to take some time and consider that. So I got off the internet and went to my moms. This is the first time I have logged back on. So please don't call me a troll.

This weekend dh and his kids minus the 15 yr old kitten killer snake feeder moved out of our shared house and into his new rental.I didn't help nor did I allow my ds to help. We went to the movies and enjoyed our day together. Dh and I have spent a lot of time talking and I admitted ONE TIME that I did not want him to move out. That was it. I will not beg a man to stay with me. As it stands now dh and I will date on the weeks he has his kids, he will be responsible for planning those dates. On the weeks he doesn't have the kids he will have dd, our 7 week old and I will plan dates for us. Yes I am letting dh have dd 50% of the time. Why should she loose her father because of ss? I also know that dh will take me to court and fight for 50/50 and he won't give up till he has it. This way I can set some limitations on his having custody of her. I told him I would be agreeable to 50/50 if he had her without his other kids so I would feel more secure about her being away. He agreed. We are having legal separation papers and custody papers drawn up. We will legally separated because I am no fool and I want dh to see that I won't be played with. If dh doesn't give me the time and attention I deserve then he will be exdh. I have made this very clear to him.

Sunday was our first day living apart and I barely heard from him. I figured that was how it would go but on Monday he was texting and face timing me all day. Same with yesterday and I have already heard from him twice today. Maybe this will work out. I hope so. I love dh more than anyone I have ever loved. I am still in shock he moved out.

Any ideas on how to keep our relationship alive? We have a date tonight. Should I stop sleeping with him? I haven't since he said he was moving out.

Comments

cm3missingit's picture

Good for stbexh. Keep up the demanding, controlling attitude and it's a sure bet. You are "letting" dh have his child 50% of the time, how gracious of you.

Ram's picture

I have zero desire to sleep with him right now. I just want to make sure I am right on that. The only reason I agreed to 50/50 was because he agreed to keep dd on the opposite weeks he has his kids. That makes me feel safer knowing ss won't be around her.

Last In Line's picture

Are you calling the marriage over, or are you just living separately until kitty killer is out of the household? There are people who stay married but maintain two household because of skid issues, so that could work if that's what you and he are willing to try to make happen.

If you're on hiatus, planning to divorce, etc then absolutely do not continue a physical relationship with him. Amazon has an entire selection of things that can help you thru that difficult time, and they have good battery prices.

If you are still trying to figure out the plan, then still no physical relationship. It confuses things...lust isn't the same thing as love. Physical fulfillment is only one part of a relationship, you seem to be physically compatible with him, it's the other stuff that needs figured out.

Ram's picture

He wanted to move out until his kids are grown. Then he supposedly will move back in. I have 6 yrs till his youngest is 18. Kitten killer snake feeder is 15. He still wants to be married and date.

Tuff Noogies's picture

just take it one date at a time. as far as sharing a bed, only you know if/when you feel comfortable with that idea.

it's nice he's keeping in contact, but he may also just be missing the daily routine. dont assume anything, play it by ear.

it has worked out for some posters to live apart until a skid is no longer an issue under the roof, so it is possible. but for others, it's a deal breaker. every relationship is unique.

Ram's picture

I already told what happened. I walked in and ss was holding my baby. Yes, I lost it and he tossed my baby on the couch! He didn't throw her or he wouldn't be alive right now. He will never hold my dd again.

cm3missingit's picture

Tossing as in dropping baby on the couch, underhand toss to sibling on the other couch, throwing baby at dh?

Ram's picture

He didn't throw her. I would have killed him. He tossed her to the cushion beside him as he got up and walked out.

Teas83's picture

What difference does it make if it was a toss or a throw? Both are completely inappropriate to do to a 6 week old baby. SMH. The skids are always right, aren't they?

cm3missingit's picture

I don't think the OP can be considered a rational human being. I'm extremely protective of my kids, but screaming bloody hell at a 15 yo boy because he's holding your child and giving her a bottle? You'd think that he was feeding her rat poison the way she reacted.

JustAgirl42's picture

Right, no need to try and define 'toss'. Anything other than gently placing a 7 week old down next to you is rough.

Just J's picture

I'm with you too, Ladyface. I've stayed away from these threads because I just cannot wrap my head around the idea that people are defending a boy who to me, is a budding sociopath. I wouldn't want a kid like that around my newborn either.

Stepped in what momma's picture

"Right, no need to try and define 'toss'. Anything other than gently placing a 7 week old down next to you is rough."

EVERYONE agrees that tossing a child is a serious issue so why didn't ole RAM who has already said she has no issue killing the skid had he THROWN the child call the cops for the kid "tossing" the child. It just doesn't add up.

Stepped in what momma's picture

The cops aren't going to do anything for a couple of reasons, one is because they were NEVER called for this clear case of child abuse (insert laugh here) and for reason two-------> she is crazy, same reason you don't call the cops when snakes eat kittens, there isn't anything for them to do anything over NOTHING.

Her poor planning backfired in her damn face when her DH left her though. He was standing right there, saw the whole thing and LEFT her, he left because Ram is being irrational over something that does not constitute her reaction.

Stepped in what momma's picture

"She said he tossed the baby on the couch after she said she didn't want him holding her. I'm not the one picking and choosing which aspects to believe. I'll give Ram the benefit of the doubt because it's a very small leap from hurting animals to being rough with helpless humans. A very small leap."

He tossed the baby on the couch after his crazy as* step mom berated him in front of his father for holding and feeding his sister. She probably has a extreme over reaction to many things that we don't know about, that is why her DH packed up and moved the hell out so fast. Feeding a snake kittens is gross but doesn't make you a freak that cannot hold a newborn.

Stepped in what momma's picture

If he was REALLY that rough I assure you this crazy cat mom would have used any excuse to call the cops on this cat killer BUT she didn't. Ya wanna know why, because she is blowing smoke up our as*es and making something out of nothing and this is EXACTLY why her DH moved out of her crazy house and left her crazy as* with a small baby.

Stepped in what momma's picture

So now I am a freak bc I don't agree with you? Wow, I know people like you, when you can't win an debate you start calling names, a true sign of high intelligence.

Stepped in what momma's picture

Another sign of intelligence is reading comprehension and understanding context; I stand corrected! Dirol

Disneyfan's picture

The OP FREAKED OUT when she saw SS holding and feeding the baby. However, whenot the baby was "tossed" she did nothing.

Call me nuts, but if someone tossed by baby, I would beat their ass. Neither one of the adults present did one thing to SS for "tossing" the baby.

Sorry, but I don't believe the baby was tossed or thrown.

Now that the two of you are legally separated, he is free to start dating. Once that happens, the new woman will definitely let him know that he is a damn fool for allowing you to have any say in when he can have his children in his home. That woman is going to push him to switch things up so that all of his kids are there at the same time. That way she will have some step kid free time with her new man.

Enjoy the control while you can.

Disneyfan's picture

Right, because it is perfectly normal for a mother to watch someone toss her baby and not go into to attack mode. :?

Cocoa's picture

Anything other than gently laying a newborn down is out of line no matter WHAT was said to him

Just J's picture

Give me a f*cking break. Cats live outdoors all the time. Would they be considered pets if she said they lived in her yard or garage? This is just semantics and for some insane reason, a way to justify a sociopath's disgusting behavior.

Let's see if you all would be ok with a kid like that around your baby. Why don't you volunteer to have him babysit your infant? Please.

robin333's picture

Waving my hand. My outdoor cat lives under my house. It's her choice and I am a damn good pet owner.

Disneyfan's picture

Just read her response below. She dumped some of them at the pond. So it's possible they were devoured by another animal.

Both of their actions were sick

cm3missingit's picture

Wait wait wait, so the OP thinks its okay to dump innocent kittens at the pond but not okay to feed them to a snake? I get it now, as long as it's see no evil, hear no evil then it's okay. They had a fighting chance at the pond. More like they starved to death, got snatched up by a bird, eaten by a coyote. Yeah, she needs help.

cm3missingit's picture

" I had an epic melt down on dh and told ss never to touch my baby again. SS tossed yes tossed my newborn onto the couch"

Epic meltdown? That's not a "dh, I told you I don't want ss around the baby". That's screaming bloody hell at the man with his son sitting next to him.

This crazy "kitten killer" showed great restraint by putting the baby down and walking out. My son would have probably smacked her upside her head.

cm3missingit's picture

Oh, so screaming like a banshee at a man, 15 yo son who is holding your baby is okay? Got it.

NoWireCoatHangarsEVER's picture

I agree with you. It would sicken me if any of my steps fed a kitten to a snake. One that he had held and kissed and loved on which she said he did. SD16 has one. I would look at her differently if she did that but I know her personality and would never ever expect her to do that. But that is what it boils down to. Character and personality. OP has problems with SS character and personality and she's fearful of him being aroud her baby. I have a baby. You have a baby. I understand that. I'm a mama bear. I would take any steps I could to protect my baby.

HadEnoughx5's picture

I agree. People on here were defending this skid for feeding the snake kittens as a "normal" thing. Definitely not normal.

Bottom line here...None of us were there about the couch incident. I for one would be particularly pissed off at all the damn haters telling me how I should or should not react or be a mother to my child. Ram came on here to VENT and have some understanding SUPPORT.

If people read this post she isn't asking anyone here if she did the right thing. She is asking if she should sleep with her husband and asking for inventive ways to have date night with her husband.

If you can't give her helpful and KIND advice then don't respond. PERIOD.

JustAgirl42's picture

The kid IS 'potentially harmful'. Sociopaths start out not having any empathy towards animals...believe me, in my profession I see kids like this all the time! And, siblings do become targets.

HadEnoughx5's picture

I'm so glad you took sometime away from everything including this site to think things through. I think you have laid out some great boundaries about this whole situation and I'm glad he's agreeing with you about your daughter.

As far as sleeping with him. I'm not sure I would in your situation. I you're not feeling it, then I wouldn't. But he needs to know why.

Hang in there. Take the day as it comes.

a better life's picture

Have you apologized to ss 15 yet and to dh for yelling at him for holding and feeding his sister? That seems to be an appropriate part of this. I get the concern factor of the kid seeing a helpless little kitty being eaten by a snake, most people naturally have compassion on kittens whereas mice/rats or other typical snake food seems to inspire less compassion. But then I am not a huge reptile lover so I'm not sure on that. However to go off on him for holding and feeding the baby was a wrong you should right. If the current situation goes south and especially if your dh moves on to another a relationship there is a great chance he will ask the judge to have all his kids at the same time every other week and it will be granted. Are the two of you going to go to counseling?

Ram's picture

We will be going to counseling starting next week. I won't apologize to ss. He killed our pets. He is lucky he isn't in jail.

cm3missingit's picture

They weren't your pets anymore, you gave them to him.

I don't agree with feeding kittens to snakes, but you gave him the kittens.

Stepped in what momma's picture

Why would you assume that a 15 yo would ask their mom? As an adult you are going to rely on a 15 yo when it comes down to these earth shattering ever so important to you kittens? Just because someone handles something like feeding a snake differently than you would doesn't make it wrong, creepy, yes, not what I would do but still doesn't mean he can't hold his sister.

You know what they say about assuming, that you make an ass out of u and me; assume= Ass-U-ME

Ram's picture

He said he asked his mother. Why else would I allow it? I don't speak to his mother. She has low morals and I don't want to associate with someone like that. She has defended his feeding those kittens to the snake. She defended him.

Ram's picture

No one imagines kittens being fed to a snake. My mistake. I will own that I allowed it to happen by being trusting.

Disneyfan's picture

So if the kid wanted to party all night and tells dad he got the OK from mom, would dad:

Agree
Check with mom first
Tell the kid he doesn't care what mom said, the answer is no

a better life's picture

I just read a little back story on this. OP took (all of these stray) kittens to the pound (at one point per OP). The ss fed them to his snake. I am a little confused. In one case the kittens were (likely) killed and incinerated or thrown away. In one case they became sustenance for a long term pet for the ss. I don't love the idea of kittens being killed but I can get where ss may not have realized these strays (which in the past have been taken to the pound) were all of a sudden beloved pets. It is also odd to send not 1 but 2 kittens home with a minor and not ask why, verify with bm if she wants 2 more pets.

Ram's picture

My son is allergic to the kittens so no we couldn't keep an entire liter of feral kittens. We did love on them and feed them. We found home for a few and ss took 2 and the rest went to the pound. If they were put down I don't want to know. They would be just as bad.

a better life's picture

'they would be just as bad' the pound? that you took them too? knowing they would be killed? (but you don't want to know) But your ss is a monster because the death he allowed of the kittens was for the purpose of food for a beloved long term pet of his? Are you going to report the pound to the authorities or maybe yourself being that 'they are just as bad'

JustAgirl42's picture

Getting euthanized, if that were even the case, and getting fed to a snake, are two VERY different things...duh.

a better life's picture

No, not apologize for feeding the kittens. Apologize for him sitting there holding and feeding his sister and causing her no harm and you going off on him about that.

Ram's picture

He should never have touched my dd. I told him he was a creepy ass mother fucker and stay the hell away from her and my ds.

a better life's picture

but your going to continue to 'date' the man that does not feel these actions constitute 'creepy ass mother fucker' and who you claim does not care that his baby was tossed?? Either this is crap Dad that is unable and unwilling to protect his baby from his monster son (and prolly any other human being) or you have made a huge mess here for nothing. Which is it?

Stepped in what momma's picture

A better life is on it! Ya, she is worried about having sex with this guy??? The guy that supports the crazy kitten killer.

OP is either hormone ridden and refuses to admit it and if it isn't hormone then my bat shi* crazy dial is going off.

cm3missingit's picture

And this is why your dh moved out. Hell, forget my son smacking you, he would have had to hold me back from smacking you.

Disneyfan's picture

And you wonder why your husband left.

Your husband's next GF/wife is going to have a field day with you. Pushing your buttons will be easy. All she has to do is make sure the older kids are over each time your husband has your daughter.

Amcc13's picture

We can't go back. What's done is done. He feels this is the best course of action and will not be swayed from it. You must now take the best course of action for you and not be swayed from it.
One such action being not having the ss around your children as it makes you uncomfy to have them together. He agrees to that.
You must also look to things financially - you are now in effect a single mother of two children with a house to maintain- how are you going to be able to do this and what is the plan in regards childcare?

It is no longer time to be emotional but to be very very practical.

Ram's picture

I have applied at a teaching job fair and should hear back soon. Dh will pay daycare for his weeks and I will pay for mine. He will also give me 100 a month in child support. Dh hates shopping so I will supply dd with all her clothes and essentials.

Rags's picture

Rather than try to preserve this toxic situation I would suggest you celebrate the departure of this failed example of a father and say good riddance to his departure and the departure of the result of the shallow and polluted gene pool that he created when he spawned with BM.

Use this as the opportunity that it is. An opportunity to purge this dipshitiot and his toxic spawn from your life and from the life of your baby. It is possible to counter the influence of a toxic blended family oppositon shallow and polluted gene pool. It takes a couple of decades of near constant commitment to confront and mitigate their toxic influence on you and your child and a near constant commitment to expose your child to the facts of the situation (in an age appropriate manner) and teach her to recognize and protect herself form their toxic crap.

Good luck.

And ... HELL NO YOU SHOULD NOT SLEEP WITH HIM!!!!!!! That is what got you into this situation in the first place. Going forward I would suggest that you be a bit more discerning in your choice of lovers. Don't sleep with anyone who can't effectively parent the spawn they have.

IMHO of course.

Cocoa's picture

Bravo

Ram's picture

My dh did not toss our baby my ss did. I did report ss to the authorities for feeding our kittens to his snakes. They didn't care.

a better life's picture

This may be because in our country we eat animals and other animals eat animals. It is not unusual on farms for example for animals to be raised as almost pets, named, petted and cared for by the kids and then off to market they go and end up as bacon on the table. While there is an ewww factor to a kitten (even a stray one that per your post you have taken to the pound likely it was killed too) fed to a snake but in his eyes he was likely taking good care of his pet and truly did not perceive the situation as you are.

Stepped in what momma's picture

A better life is on a roll today! Nailed it again!

I don't agree with feeding kittens to snakes but a lot of my vegetarian friends don't agree with me eating any animals. Really it just a disagreement over what some people consider food and what some people consider pets.

Oh, and let's not forget the toss that was so severe that the OP called the cops over the kittens but didn't contact them to report this huge case of child abuse.

a better life's picture

If you truly believe this toss was so atrocious as to likely cause harm to your daughter and your husband blindly refuses to be concerned then that would mean he is incapable of safely being around your daughter and protecting her from other human beings and should be allowed only supervised visitation.

If on the other hand he you have over-reacted and caused a huge stink (and possibly your daughter never having a full time dad again) then you have some personal work to do.

JustAgirl42's picture

Luckily the baby didn't get hurt, which is why she may not have called CPS (that's called 'not over reacting'). I can understand why she wouldn't want to let her SS around the baby anymore according to what she's told us. To assume something less may have happened, and tell OP that she is over-reacting, could be pretty irresponsible.

a better life's picture

Yet, she is saying the father was not alarmed with it and she is seeking dating advise. My bar for how my children are treated and the protection of them are higher for my own husband, their dad then it is for a ss. So if this is as bad as OP making it out to be she should be seeking supervised visits for the dad who supposedly does not care for the infant instead of figuring out to date him and give him 50/50. That is the part that is perplexing.

WalkOnBy's picture

She isn't a single mom, but not for the reasons you lay out in your "definition." I thought we went over this yesterday in another post Smile

She isn't a single mom because she is a married woman.

a better life's picture

Support can come in different forms from 'go girl you're the greatest' to 'step back and consider u are busting up ur life for nothing'

Disneyfan's picture

Lady, how would you react if someone tossed Babyface?

You may not be a violent person, but that goes out the window when someone puts your child in danger. Tossing a child that young could result in serious damage. The fact that the OP didn't instinctively react in momma bear mode to an act that could harmed her child, speaks volumes.

a better life's picture

Yes if i truly thought by dh had stood by as my infant was harmed i would NOT be dating him i would be prosecuting him

NoWireCoatHangarsEVER's picture

She very much does sound like she maybe suffering from post partum depression. I'm disappointed in her husband. That baby needs a well healthy mother. That should be his focus right now. Healing OP who is suffering. Getting her support and resources.

Phoebe's picture

OMG!!! How can anyone defend this kid? Does anyone remember Jeffrey Dahmer? People who tortures animals have NO empathy for others and usually grow up to be serial killers. No way would I let that lunatic around my kids!

a better life's picture

Amazing advise, and very kindly stated. I hope she will consider taking it.

Ram's picture

I had my 6 week check up and wound up a crying blubbering mess of goo. My dr thinks I may have postpartum depression. She wrote me a script and gave me a referral to see someone. I was able to make an appointment for next Friday. I don't know what that means that many of you suggested it and so did the dr. Maybe I did over react. I don't feel as if I did but right now back seems front and all that. I feel exhausted and drained. I don't know. I texted dh what the dr said and that I started the meds. I am not sure what to do right now other than take a nap.

Tuff Noogies's picture

your and morrimom's comments are what imho incredibly balanced and well thought out. OP you'd be wise to re-read them both several times.

AlreadyGone's picture

Do you want to know what I find ULTRA AMAZING???? That so many seemingly intelligent women will waste LITERALLY, days of their lives, debating whatever the OP vents about; as though any of them have any stake in the actual outcome of the situation. GEEZIZ! You think she's some sort of troll, so you flame her... you think she's lying about her situation, so you try and trip her up... you don't think her reactions fit the scenario, so she must be wrong. Why the hell are so many of you vested in this particular poster? Do you not have better things to do? Are your lives so miserable, that you have to turn every thread that you don't agree with, in to some sort of free for all?

If you have nothing positive to add, move along already. Pick a post that more directly affects your POV. Trolls here aren't the problem. Seasoned members, with nothing helpful to add, take up the majority of space and time here. Dayum! }:)

not2sureimsaneanymore's picture

O...kay... So wading through all this--I think you and your husband are two very, /very/ different people. With very different values. And that's what it comes down to. Your husband doesn't see an issue with his child feeding kittens (which are seen as "pets" in most parts of the world--something to love on and to protect). You do. You generalize and feel that a person who can do this to a helpless animal who, in our culture, is treated with love, can do this to other human beings. You feel that visceral disgust to something you find abhorrent and fear for your child's safety. Your husband does not.

It would essentially be like one person who enjoys watching animals die holding a child and now the husband and wife are at odds as to whether or not the person should be holding the child--the wife says what's the harm because it's not like he likes watching humans die, and the husband says this shows a general disregard for compassion of living things and that he is not comfortable with him holding their child. Who's right?

Well, that depends on which side of this moral quandary you stand on, and if you guys DON'T agree, then that's where the problem comes up.

For the record, my husband would FLIP HIS EVERLOVING SHIT if anyone, be it his mother, brother, my SS, even our own child, were to do something like feed a snake (or alligator, or Savannah monitor, or whatever) a kitten and then hold another infant of ours. This is somewhat hypocritical because well, we had a close friend who fed a live parakeet to his snake when he was a kid (although he hugely regrets it now and is like a vegan hippie). I am more ambivalent about it because I understand in some circles, food is food. I love my pets, including our two cats, but I am not deluded into thinking that there isn't another culture out there (including mine) that views them as food.

HOWEVER, I WILL respect his decision because I can understand that he cannot think from the point of view that the person might not be as big of a danger to our child as he feels. And if I were to really, really think about it, would I be okay with someone who pushes at one of my visceral buttons? Hell, I hate it when someone I really, really dislike tries to pick up my child--including my MIL. I am rational enough not to blow my top (because it doesn't help anything) but if BM tried? Wow, how many of us would freak the fuck out of BM tried touching our children? We hate the BM for everything she did to us, and now she is trying to touch an extension of us? No way. So I can understand her reaction. Not the best, but also not out of line. Does it help the situation? Not one iota, and has, instead made it worse. I mean if BM touched my child and I screamed like a maniac, the only one who looks crazy is me. I know that, and can control that. Some people can't--my DH being one of them.

Also, being anything other than treating a newborn infant like its glass that can be broken at any moment is not okay. Don't know how anyone can defend that. Baby can't even hold up its head. Would the tune be different if the result was that the baby slide off the cushion and got hurt because the neck was bent at a wrong angle when it slide off?

Date him, if that's what he wants. But I can say that this may not last because you are two very, VERY different people in how you approach and think about things. I think any relationship needs to be based on mutual sharing of core values or else it can't survive. You will find the other person disgusting for their views eventually. I say on the physical intimacy--what you're comfortable with and what you won't regret. If you feel like you're being used if you do sleep with him, then don't.

As a snake owner--I have to add this: It's not okay to feed your snakes live animals, this is the basic rule everyone learns if they've done their research on how to care for these animals. So either he killed the kittens first and then fed them to it, or he doesn't care about his snake's well-being enough to follow the golden rule. This golden rule exists because if a snake does not want to eat, it will more than likely be injured, killed, or eaten by the very prey you are trying to feed it. My snakes, as are most people who are responsible (unless they have extremely picky eaters which occasionally do pop up and they will starve themselves to death if they are not given live), are on a diet of frozen and then thawed mice that I store in my freezer and buy every so often in large bags like Costco chicken. It is UNNECESSARY to feed a snake anything other than frozen/thawed food that were bred and processed for the exact reason UNLESS they are F/T refusers. The ONLY people I have ever known to feed a snake or another animal live prey when it is not necessary does it for the pure thrill of watching the act of death over the safety of their pet and a humane death for the prey. Also, you don't take things from outside to feed your reptiles--parasites and viruses and god knows what else can kill your prized pet, which may be worth thousands of dollars depending on genetics. So as someone who values their reptiles as well, but who also cares about how the food that we give them is taken care of and processed, I would condemn his behavior on the grounds that it is immoral and irresponsible to both the kittens and his pet who he supposedly loves.

That does NOT mean that they are always sociopaths or psychopaths, and some I know would never harm another human being. Others... I probably would politely shift the conversation away if they wanted to hold my child. I do have a problem with the SS doing this based on the fact that the culture in which he grew up in should have deterred him from killing an animal seen as something that is to be loved. That has less to do with whether or not it's "okay" in some circles to do so and more about the fact that it is an abnormal action given what his upbringing was. But then again, maybe his upbringing was okay with that if his dad didn't see an issue with it. I think this needs to be explored some more.

I'm raising baby betta fish right now and they're on live baby brine shrimp--but out of necessity because as soon as they are able, I'm weaning them right onto pellets. Just like how the adult betta were kept on a diet of live blackworms (because I had a culture growing) simply to stimulate egg and breeding behavior. After, they went back to pellets.

Some people can't stomach the thought of even squishing a mosquito out of love for all life (they tend to turn vegetarian--DH goes through these phases) and would find me a terrible person to be hatching and feeding shrimp and worms to fish.

It's perspective.

Disneyfan's picture

Oh FFS, there was nothing snotty, passive-aggressive...about Sally's post.

Sally, drinks sound great. I'llc spring for the first round.