Is this the End??? (PAS)
I have been reading here for many months and thank you all for excellent advice and insights. We have a long-standing situation of PAS which I would have termed mild to moderate, until this last visit which has me feeling shell-shocked and wondering what on earth we do next.
Background--DH and BM a bitter divorce (he left her) when skids were very young (SS a baby, SD 2). She moved kids away in violation of a court order to be with her boyfriend (now husband). She claimed in court DH verbally gave her permission to move--court did not actually believe her (she did this when DH was out of the country for work for 3 months) but said the kids were now moved so weren't going to disrupt them again. Like a lot of loving fathers, DH has been badly let down by the court system, repeatedly.
He was given generous vacation/summer access which has been an ongoing battle since I came on the scene 10 years ago (we have been married 7 years). BM constantly planning things to interfere and she honestly believes he is "selfish" for insisting skids spend time with him and "miss out" on events and particularly elite sport participation in their own city. Her response to everything is "well, you're the one who wanted a divorce and the kids shouldn't have to suffer for it". She truly believes this. She has people in her life that validate this crazy perspective, including SIL and MIL (another topic but they are toxic)
The PAS has always been there, but I always thought it was and would remain limited by the fact BM doesn't really want DH to go away... if he starts to give up in the face of the constant messaging that he is worthless and the kids don't want to see him (except for his $$$$ of course) then she starts up with "the kids need you! How can you hurt them by not taking an interest in them!". Very much the borderline personality of I hate you, go away--how dare you leave me? It is exhausting and crazy-making.
SD is now 15 and SS is 13. SD is turning out to be a lot like BM--needy, emotionally explosive, passive aggressive, into crying and guilt tripping. She has always been under the most pressure to be BM's loyal soldier in the war on DH and our home. It has hurt my heart to see the terrible loyalty conflicts that BM has inflicted on this essentially sweet, not very bright girl. SS goes his own way a bit more so far, but he is still young and quite immature for his age.
Unlike a lot of posters, I have found having my own child with DH (our DD is 5) has actually made me feel love for skids for the first time--I see many shared qualities and expressions, and the relationship between them all makes me love them... even though both skids can be cold and reserved towards DD at times, and towards me a lot of the time. Lately they have been getting closer and DD really adores them, especially SS.
BM has always ramped up the crazy when faced with the fact the skids have a sister --she did everything possible to make my pregnancy and birth of DD a nightmare, joined by SIL and MIL, and for that alone I will never forgive those bitches. I suspect she must have picked up on the positive feelings and interactions between skids and DD lately and made them feel terrible because when they were to come for a long weekend last week, DH got a bunch of the usual e-mails how skids don't want to come blah blah blah. DH ignored, said I will pick them up as per court order.
So then comes the crying phone calls from SD, please don't make me come, I have basketball, soccer (you name it), I don't feel comfortable, I hate you... stuff that makes DH cry and me too, as I love him so much and he doesn't deserve this.
Then BM says SD will come only if she can visit with DH alone, without me or DD. DH ignored this, simply reiterated he will be at pick up point at x time on x day. I never go with him to pick skids up, but we decided that I would go this time just to be clear that nobody is dictating anything about our family or where I or our DD will or will not go. When we got there, SD got out of the car and starting screaming and crying how he had "tricked" her, that her mom said I wasn't going to be there this time (I was still sitting in the car), that she wasn't coming with us, she hated us.
BM is just standing there like the evil tool that she is, looking like DH is trying to drag her darling child off to torture, trying unsuccessfully to hide her glee.
This stand-off went on for 15 minutes, DH trying in vain to get SD to get into the car (saying all the right things: Imogen and I love you and we are a family, we will discuss this later, get in the car, you are a child and will do what I say), SD getting more and more hysterical. I was shaking, what an awful scene.
I see SS is standing off by himself looking sad and confused, so I finally got out of the car and said quietly to DH, this is too hard on SS, let's take him and go. So DH said well I'm sure SS wants to come and SS says I guess so, looking nervous, and SD says "NO! I'm not letting him go alone! Who knows what would happen to him!"
I couldn't believe it. I was is a state of shock and confusion. We have been nothing but loving and kind to these children. What are we being accused of? It actually made my blood run cold.
BM then piped up and said, maybe the kids should just go for a couple of hours and then I will take them home. We ignored this idiocy. She said it again and I looked at her and said very calmly "this is not a negotiation." She looked afraid of me. HA. Since those are the only 5 words I have said to this bitch-faced beast in 10 years, I am pretty happy with them actually!
Anyway, we walked away with SS and then SD came running after us saying again to us and BM "I'm not letting him go alone.". WTF ever.
The strangest part was the literal second we got in our car it was like a switch was flipped. SD was friendly, chatty, happy. It was the most bizarre thing I have ever seen. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I would never have believed it. She hugged me and DD many times during the visit. They stayed the whole weekend with no issue. DH tried to talk to her about what had happened but she is the type to start crying and saying "I'm sorry, I'm sorry" repeatedly without ever discussing what is going on, so we got nowhere.
DH and I don't know what to do. I am honestly afraid to have them back in our home. This is destroying my DH and I love him so much, and I care about these children but BM's poison has gone beyond anything I thought it would. She refuses to put the skids in counselling and she is primary. Are we out of options? I am at a loss and this is making me feel ill. We are supposed to have them for a week at Christmas but I am feeling like this might be the end of the line.
Any thoughts, insights, advice very much appreciated. I'm sorry this is so long.
Thanks for your answer.
Thanks for your answer. Unfortunately there isn't such wording in their agreement. BM won't agree to mediation as she claims to be intimidated by DH. Believe me, she is a professional victim and is good at it. She will always phrase things as her worries are for the kids, the poor kids are upset, the kids are uncomfortable and anxious about visiting... it's NEVER her fault. Sadly the courts don't seem to see through her and I am not spending another dollar in family court... we have spent thousands and for nothing.
I agree about having a serious conversation about respect, even though BM and SD will simply say we are not respecting SD's feelings. It is a no win situation.
Afterwards, I felt SD should have been punished for her conduct and DH agreed, but we were both reeling at the time. Would you punish a skid for this? Or is that just ensuring we are the bad guys as BM always paints us to be anyway?
Working in the courts, it is
Working in the courts, it is implied that pas not occur whether it's in the order or not. You should take it to court. Pas is child abuse.
Congratulations on your
Congratulations on your pregnancy! I truly hope you can enjoy this time and not have it ruined by BM and skid drama as happened with me. I am still very bitter about that.
I hadn't thought of calling the police. I am a private person and I hate scenes so this is all just so beyond me. It makes me very upset. I am also honestly worried about what lies might be told after what she said this last time. It sounded like SD was suggesting SS was at risk being alone with us?! My DH is a teacher and I work in the legal field. False complaints could be devastating to both of us. I never thought they would take it this far.
The few people I have told about this all ask why is SD so against coming to your house--as though she must have a good reason. Even my own sister asked this!! It all makes me nervous.
I can only tell you what I
I can only tell you what I would suggest to my husband if this happened to him:
The next time you go to pick them up and SD starts acting all crazy like this your DH needs to just ignore her. Ask her one more time to get in the car or he's leaving without her and then loads up SS and go. You could probably get the SS in the car immediately and then ask the SD if she is coming or not. Then leave with or without her. She wanted that scene. She wanted your DH to beg for her and to show that she will only go on her terms which was "to protect her brother" in front of BM but really from her personality switch it was because she was afraid of being left behind and knowing that your house isn't as bad as BM makes her believe. Don't play the game. If she likes coming to you your house you'll only have to leave her once, if she's really being passed then there's nothing you can do to save her anyway and you shouldn't have her in your house unless you have cameras everywhere because the lies and accusations will happen. Your DH should not have let her slide for acting out like a maniac. He should have told her immediately in the car when she jumped back to normal that she better not ever pull that crap again.
This is just what I would do. Others might have better suggestions as I haven't had to deal with this before. My DH is primary and SS is still a young child so he's happy to go and happy to come back. He's only cried once and that was because he didn't want to go with her but DH did the right thing and corrected him and I'm sure BM made him feel bad for saying he didn't want to go with her. It'll never happen again on our side, I'm sure BM would bask in the glory of SS not wanting to come home if that happens. It's an insecure mother's validation to have her child reject her other parent.
I could have written this
I could have written this word for word I swear your BM is the clone of the Girhippo.
She wasn't happy until all 3 skids finally PASed out for good and Chef became nothing but a wallet so now she can go around saying that Chef abandoned the 3 skids.
What you're describing went on for 6 very long years at my house until Chef decided to drop the rope after phony CPS reports spurred on by the Girhippo
Did I mention that the Girhippo is a CPS worker? Chef's parents are deceased so who knows what side they would have taken? My spidey senses say they would have taken the Girhippo's side-- a lot of chefs relatives were poisoned by the Girhippo clan.
To be honest I'm very glad that I was older and had a previous tubal ligation, which made it impossible to have children with Chef. That would have been the major drama that you are going through now.
Do you live in a BM centric area or do you live in an area where judges are reasonable and you can prosecute after documenting the alienation?
if you live in an area where it is GUBM, then basically you have to just walk away and drop the rope, otherwise document document document, prepare for massive legal fees and prosecute
^^ i love this!
I don’t think that it is the
I don’t think that it is the end.
BM4 didn’t keep the kids from us, but she told them that DH abandoned them (were with us all the time). They believe that they would go looking for us and wait at our place. The truth is that they did go to our place but both of us were at work. BM4 would sit outside my house for hours waiting for DH to come home. What SD remembers is DH saying “what are you doing here” BM4 has her convinced that he didn’t want them.
When we had (8 years after we started seeing each other) DS BM decided that we could only have the kids EOW. 6 yrs later when we had DD she turned in the Alienation to an unbelievable level she tried to stop all visits. Now he only speaks with one of the kids. (Not BM4’s)
BM4 told DH that she wanted to have another baby with him so all her kids can have the same father (she already had her tubes tied) and was with her current DH at the time. 15 yrs after the split she told him that no matter how long it is she will never forgive him for what he did to her and her children. He left but had the kids every weekend. He left because they fought all the time. One of the things that they fought about was him seeing his other kids. She wanted no part of it (Now she says she had to force him).
She started with the kid’s only want to see you alone. They hate SM. They think that DH is wiped by SM. DH refused to be alone with them for good reason.
It is so bad that she has his other kids believing it. She is a good story teller and because DH did nothing about it they believe the lies. I could go on and on and tell you stories.
WHAT I WOULD DO IS NOT GIVE UP. My DH gave up because he couldn’t take it any longer but that was up to him to decided.
Thank you for this. I also
Thank you for this. I also feel in my heart that it is wrong to give up on these children. I guess because it is unthinkable to ever give up on my own kids. I do care about skids and see the good in them. I feel that they must one day see the truth that they have a wonderful dad who hung in there, and that I have always tried to be kind to them. But the stories on here show otherwise, that they may turn their backs on us and tell horrible lies about us.
I am sorry for your own situation. The evil done by these BMs is unbelievable.
Thank you for this, I read
Thank you for this, I read every word twice! And will read to DH. I think you make a lot of good points and that may be the right approach going forward. Skids are actually talented athletes and BM moved them 5 hours away so it is all a logistical nightmare. She has them on travel teams and in elite level training, and seeing us is "letting down the team" and "keeping them from reaching their potential/the Olympics/a full ride scholarship" fill in the blank.
Letting go of that rope would be a huge relief. Just have to convince DH that he has to stay strong in the face of the outraged reaction he would get.
Yes I have 2 older children
Yes I have 2 older children away at college now and my ex and I never had much difficulty co-parenting. So I was unprepared for this type of drama.
BM seems normal, she has a Masters degree and seems to function in life. But she has a fixed delusion about DH and skids, she is insecure and a total nightmare. It makes her crazy to deal with--and no one else really gets it. It is a relief to read on here about other people dealing with the same thing.
dh had this issue with bm.
dh had this issue with bm. she found a lover (who was married with children). he divorced his wife to marry bm, who also divorced dh.
the divorce went uncontested as bm threatened dh that if he found a lawyer shed make sure hed never see his children. she took the skids to another state. dh was terrified that bm would take them away. she did anyway.
during time skids were young everything was at bms whim. the cowardly dh let her get away with it. needless to say i did not respect him. i also did not respect the way he let his skids walk all over him.
^^^^THIS^^^^^ AND put a go
^^^^THIS^^^^^
AND put a go pro in the car to record this madness for the courts.
NO it not the end...it is
NO it not the end...it is only the begiinning.....start videotaping and documenting everything...find legal counsel who gets the damage done to children by a pas ing mother. It is serious...It can destroy the children's relationship with their father (as that is the end goal for the toxic parent). Take it seriously and expose bm to legal counsel with serious consequences applied. Bm has crossed the line and is being injurious to her own children for revenge. she is using them to win the short term battles that exist between her and your dh. If you guys do not put a serious stop to it...no one will. Our step kids were all pad'd the same way...and now they have inherited the hate and unforgiveness as their way of "doing " life. they are second generation narcassists. they do not even know at the ages of 40 what their real issues in life are because of the toxic culture their bm marinated them in their entire lives. The power is in keeping the passing a secret....denial, and the bm absolving herself from the responsibility of the effect she is having on her own children...they are not things..they are people...the bm is the most dangerous one in their lives right now. until someone exposes her for what she is doing and makes her accountable....she will continue to get worse....
and the children will pay the price...dh cannot sit on his hands with this...he needs an intervention to get his children out of that abuse...It is emotional, mental and psychological abuse.... they say the better the performance of the "favored parent"...the more dangerous they really are....Unfortunately you and dh are the only ones that can save his children from this hell on earth experience...gather as much evidence as you can...Unfortunately there are a lot of bm's out there that have overstepped this line in seeking revenge in a divorce. To watch a mother relish in her child's meltdown when leaving with their bio dad..is sick and twisted.....Inside she was indulging her narcissistic illness...(the food the monster needs to be fed on a consistent basis)...is the constant proven loyalty of her children to her...Her appetite is insatiable and never ending....she will consume her own young to maintain her self made identity.
they are influenced by her secret punishment and reward system...Conditional love...She will love them if they do what she expects...It is very covert..but really happening non the less..they are performing to make her happy. She has convinced them that they are responsible for her happiness as well as her other emotional states...she is leaning on them as an emotional crutch...they feed her self esteem and her core identity thrives on their loyalty to her...You are the evil ones and she is the favored one is the underlying message to everything...their symptoms of behavior patterns is proof of what is being taught to them. They are starting to live out what they have been taught is "normal"...If dh does not get a hold of this situation...the s kids will becoming grossly co-dependent with their mother until one day they morph into the same narcissistic life patterns that they have had to live with...
My s kids are over 40 now...We went through the same thing but could not comprehend what was taking place at the time it was happening...Now they are all in for the fight of their lives to be able to shed the legacy their bm has left them..Dr childress has some good tube videos to get educated on how serious this is for your children.....You still have time to do something about it...peace.