Saga continues -PAS?
Apologies in advance, this is long but is my way of working through and of documenting what is going on. I have posted several times recently due to events going on with SD15, and also DH. A few weeks ago, he arrived to pick her up at a party as planned, and she had to be placed in the car because she was incoherently drunk. The next day, they talked/shouted about it and BM arrived to pick up SD shortly after. The agreed upon punishment was a week with no phone or friends, but he discovered that BM did not stick to it. SD did not come during her visit that week, or for her next scheduled weekend when DH tried to continue/enforce by not allowing her to make plans, although he did let her invite her bf to see a movie with all of us. This caused a fight between he and I (I felt like he was not sticking to punishment, and we both ended up saying and doing some things that hurt the other's feelings) This dragged on far too long where we did not resolve it for almost 2 weeks, and I was feeling like my marriage was not going to work out. We finally talked about it, reached some conclusions, and we are trying again. He sees my point of view, I see he is in a tough spot, but we love each other and our family and want to make it work.
Last week, SD15 skipped her Wed visit, but came Thursday and was supposed to be here for the weekend. Friday she went to a game at school with a friend before DH got home from work, with his permission. She was supposed to be home after. She tried to call and text him at one point, but he was driving home from work and did not see it. He contacted her back 9 minutes after her first try - she was asking if she could go to her friends house. This friend is one she named as having bought the alcohol she drank, so DH said no. She responded that she asked her mom when she couldn't reach DH, and her mom said it was ok and would pick her up later....then said she was already at friends house (she went before she had anyone's permission). DH said no, you are with me this weekend, I said no, and I am coming to get you. And he did. When he got there, there were other kids around and being dropped off, and it felt like a party. SD did get in the car, and he said she threw a literal tantrum on the way home, kicking and crying. They had a huge fight for the next hour, with her saying awful things to him, and him calling her s liar and manipulator (fortunately I was not home and had no idea this was going on). She ended up calling BM to come get her, and she did, even though DH tried to talk her out of it. She just "couldn't leave SD here" when she was so upset. And of course SD did not come back, other than stopping in the past couple days to pick up things.
DH has reached out through text a couple times, to tell her he loves her. She does not respond. He called her yesterday and she actually answered. He said he asked what was going on, said they need to talk this through, and she told him she is done staying here, she does not want to be on a schedule but she would go out to dinner or maybe stay on a Saturday night sometimes. He said no, I am your dad and you are not going to just stop living with me because you did not get your way. She said she does not feel welcome here, she has never had a key (she has access through our garage code) and she does not understand why she had to let us know she is stopping by when she is with her mom. These complaints have been there for a couple if years now, they are not new. But it seems they are only brought up when she is mad about something else, mostly DH not giving in to something. BM is in support of her, and DH and I both believe she is the source of a lot of SDs strong feelings about not feeling welcome. BM had made comments in her presence about how she is always welcome at BMs, and BM is a parent 24/7. Also if DH has asked her to start doing things like cleaning up after herself, BM says she doesn't have to do these things at her house. As if DH has not always been available and not put his kids first. He has never not responded to her, or told her no if she wants to come over, but he has tried to enforce the heads up before stopping by mostly out of consideration for me. And the things he has asked her to do are the minimum of what most people expect of their kids as part of learning to be responsible and an contributing member of a household.
At this point, DH is very hurt and angry, he feels like he is being removed as a parent because he has stopped going along with whatever SD wants. After she was so drunk a few weeks ago, he does not have the trust he used to and is feeling like he needs to step up to try to head off her going in a bad direction. But BM is undermining that. He is broken hearted that SD does not want to live here, and thinks this is going to end up being her not being around unless she wants something (which it has been to a degree for a long time). Apparently when he told SD that it is important to him that he is a part of her daily life, she said it is not that important to her.
I am not sure how to help. I have my own guilt feelings of, if I hadn't pushed all these years for him to start taking some stands and not letting her run things, there wouldn't be this tension that was already there. He is taking his own stand now due to the drinking...he had experiences when he was younger that got him into some trouble, and he is recognizing some signs around her (like throwing up and passing out on our basement floor). I am feeling like it's better if he doesn't try to push things with her right now, but he feels like that is giving up being a dad. I just don't see how he can be a dad who parents when the mom won't let him. At this point, it doesn't feel like there is a lot that can be done, outside of going back to just being the yes guy who doesn't put up a fight. SD has learned through the years that her mom will come and "save" her, I don't see how he can stand up to that. Advice or insight is welcome as always
I’m sorry you’re dealing with this
I have been through the same exactly thing, only twice. It started with OSS. He would never throw fits or tantrums but he would sneak out of our house In the middle of the night and thought he was king of MY castle. He dictated what went on and when. DH worked a lot so I was stuck with the skids alone. Oss was always the golden child. If DH tried to set rules or OSS wasn’t allowed to run the household, he would call BM and she would come get him. Every time!! There were times she would get him and I would have no idea...he would just be gone. We have a large house so it is possible to not know if he left. He would stop all contact with dH until he wanted something and the whole process would start again. DH was crushed.
Then it happened with MSS. MSS was even more entitled and nasty than oss. MSS would get mad because DH couldn’t be his chauffeur and buy him everything he ever wanted. He expected dinners out, shopping trips and fun activities every weekend he wasn’t playing in one of his million games. He expected to be worshiped because that is what BM did. When DH has to work and miss games, that caused MSS to become a vile evil person who treated DH like dirt. And BM backed MSS up the whole time. MSS also cut off all contact u less it was hateful or he wanted something. BM would encourage their behavior.
DH and I went through 4-5 years of hell dealing with the PAS. Eventually OSS and MSS stopped all communication and DH cut off their cell phones. Now we only get the rare hateful message fro. MSS about once or twice a year. He does it just to be an ass. DH mourned the loss of his kids. He has finally found peace with it and is the man I fell in love with years ago.
This is a tough time...it will take years for your DH to come to terms with the fact his kid is a jerk. And you cannot force her to come around and you cannot control what BM does. Just stop chasing her. He can text and call to let her know he loves her but leave it at that. The more you beg and fight the worse it gets.
Im not saying give up, just know this is a long road and sometimes you have to let the fight go for everyone’s sanity. BM will have to reap what she sowed.
About a month after DH cut off the SSs phones (which BM replaces the same day) BM sent DH a text telling him he needed to talk to MSS because he was being mean and nasty to her and he needed to fix it. Yea right BM just like you fixed it when they treated DH like that. Don’t hold your breath BM.
Boohoo sd doesn’t like rules
In the workplace if you don’t follow rules well, you get fired. You don’t get to choose the decision you want to make against the company.
so woohoo bm doesn’t make her do ccores at home. In the real world, every member of the house is and should be expected to contribute towards chores and the running of the household.
i never got a copy of house keys unless parents had an emergency and would be home a little late then my brother kept the house key. We only got one when we finished high school. Sd has shown herself to not be responsible or respectful so guess what? She doesn’t get a house key until then and until she has matured. She’s given the garage code so can enter home but makes it like she’s not welcome in your home, if that were the case she wouldn’t get the garage code or house keys....
typical spoilt stepkid/future adult having a tantrum and over exaggerating things and blaming everyone but not seeing her part in the problems and issues
Agreed.....just not sure if
Agreed.....just not sure if there is any way that she and/or BM can see that. It always turns into an attack in DH (and probably me but he doesn't share that part)
If she is a high conflict golden uterus bio mum
then there is no luck she will consider you or your partners views
they believe they make the law, are above the law and their mission is to contradict exhusband always, they refuse to co-parent effectively...
these mums see their kids as their property, machines of destruction to destroy ex hubby and his new partner and life without her. They make their kids highly dependent on them for life, not raising them to be independent and equipped to handle the real world and when these kids/adults fail to launch and be effective employees and just stable individuals, these mums wash their hands of the situation. They do not take responsibility for the mess they caused or take blame...
these kinds of mums are the worst because you often have exhusbands who refuse to go to court and fight for their rights to their kids as its often a lost cause dealing with a psycho and kids who have been alienated from their other parent...
I just don't see how he can
I just don't see how he can be a dad who parents when the mom won't let him.
Welcome to THAT club. My SD is now 27, and DH's relationship with her is no better than when she was 15. She is co-dependent on BM, which is exactly what BM wanted.
So terrible, I am sorry it
So terrible, I am sorry it hasn't improved. I am hoping st some point the emotions will quiet down and maybe she will see that things are not so terrible here and that she has a dad who loves her. I hope some day your stepdaughter can see that...
Thank you for your insight,
Thank you for your insight, and I am sorry you have had to go through that also. I don't really understand what is behind some parents supporting bad behavior and encouraging separation from the other parent. Seems like the child is the one who is hurt the most. In your situation, does OSS come around at all now, or there is not really a relationship with either? Did either of yours SSs talk about feeling like an guest in your home? DH made the mistake of saying that we treat her like a guest here, meaning she has no responsibilities, does what she wants, he goes out of his way to provide what she wants and shuttle her around, etc. His point being that she wants to be a member of the household but with the perks of a guest. She of course took that as we don't accept her here
This reply was meant for SM12
This reply was meant for SM12, I was not in the right spot
No such luck
Oss was PASd before MSS. Oss didn’t get hateful about anything, he just ghosted DH. He would pop back in a few times a year to get new phones but after DH had to tell him No one time...he cut DH out.
I bought the house we live in before we got married. The SSs weren’t aware I bought it alone and started treating my house badly, damaging things and treating my Bs like an Outsider. After the damaged my front door within days of moving in I lost it on them. I set down rules. DH finally had a talk to them and explained it was MY house and I could make them all leave any time I wanted. I’m not sure he did the right thing. He probably should have just backed me on the rules. But regardless, oss and MSS never felt like this was their house after that. And DH was being a Disney dad at that time too so he would let them get out if helping with chores or even cleaning up after themselves.
the SSs tried to put the blame on me for being jerks to their dad at first. I disengaged from them totally and they them turned their wrath on DH because they had nothing to blame me for anymore. It took years for DH to see what I saw early on.
they are vile mean spirited manipulative people. Maybe one day they will
chsnge but I doubt it. BM has them so dependent on her they will never launch.
BM is undermining everything
BM is undermining everything your H is doing and its a shame that she's not allowing him to parent. Some parents have no idea how much damage this does to a child and what its teaching them.
She ended up calling BM to come get her, and she did, even though DH tried to talk her out of it.
This should have never gone down. Your H was taking care of it and this only shows SD how to further manipulate and get her way. The level of boundaries crossed and lack of respect has me fearful of the generation that is being raised.....This world will go to sh!t with this poor parenting.
All true. BM claims she was
All true. BM claims she was not going to let her go out Friday evening, but it would not be surprising if she took her from here and dropped her back off at the party. She did not see SD at her worst a few weeks ago, I dont think she understands just how bad off she was. BM says she trusts her completely, which I think is foolish when SD literally just showed there is a reason not to
In this kind of scenario where bm picks up sd to take back to
The party or she decides to rant to exhubby about it, this is a moment where hubby should be sensing pics to her of sd wasted as because if she was picked up drunk as heck, it wouldn’t have been a pretty sight. So hubby should snap snap some pics, keep ot for the day bio mums holy art though parenting attitude and lecturing comes to play to shut her up. She probably won’t shut up and claim blah blah blah but the point is to justify what hubby is doing
the other scenario that could have happened is when bio mum tried to come over and take sd is hubby said firmly NO!! This was his time and she will stay here the days she is supposed to. If bio mum proceeds to grab her then tell her if she doesn’t leave you will call the police to remove her as she is trespassing
sd no doubt will kick/scream etc and if she threatens harm or gets physical, she is warned you will call the police and when it does happen, cops take her to the police station and maybe jail overnight. Yes she may get even more aggro about it but its to teach her that lesson that she can’t disrespect and walk all over people. She’ll realise then you won’t tolerate her shit
at present she has not learnt anything, she’s been able to manipulate both parents
Yep, been there too, my SS19
Yep, been there too, my SS19 did not speak to DH for 3 years. DH was the real parent and BM was the nice friend parent who let him do whatever he wanted. Yes, this is a type of parental alienation, for one parent to give the kid the freedom to do whatever they want in order to make the other parent look bad.
My DH decided that he would not give up trying to be a parent and just let SS run all over him, and he did not speak to DH for over 3 years. He speaks to DH now, but he's in and out, goes periods where he doesn't speak to him, and he's still BM's puppet and her foot soldier.
It sucks, but my DH at least has self-respect for not caving and being a Disney dad, and yours should too. He should take her up on the offer to get together periodically, keep the door open, but don't expect much.
Stepper47,
stepper47,
She "does not want to be on a schedule"? Tough shit. DH needs to beat the Skid over the head with a rolled up copy of the CO and nail BM with a contempt motion any time she fails to surrender SD as scheduled. DH also needs to stop tolerating BM interfering on his visitation time and picking up SD before DH's COd time has passed for that specific visitation. Nailing BM's ass to the wall with contempt motions will in all likelihood motivate BM to help keep this toxic teen straight on how the world works until she ages out from under the CO.
If SD does not catch a clue, have DH initiate court action, present SD's drunken behavior, etc... and let the judge deliver reality to this idiot teen.
smh.
No advice here but I know it
No advice here but I know it's maddening!! When we found out everything SD was up to BM said she was cracking down and changing everything . . . No more social media, no more crop tops or other revealing clothing, reduced contact with friends, and cutting off ex boyfriend. SD hasn't been over since and won't respond to us at all. I look her up on social media occasionally and she was hanging out with the same friends again within about a week or two, never stopped using social media, back to wearing skimpy clothing and just posted a video with previous boyfriend (who carries a gun, sells drugs, and was threatening to send out pics of her nude last time they broke up) this week.
I realize that there's no point in trying to understand why BM allows any of this because only crazy can understand crazy but I can't help but wonder if she's too busy being SDs friend, if she has no control over her, or if she just doesn't care.
IF attachment based/parental
IF attachment based/parental alienation is present, you will know or should know that until the child is in protective custody---there is nothing that anyone can do.
I encourage you and your dh to read read read to educate yourself on this monster.
Look up Dr. Craig Childress on Google. You can also watch youtube his videos about 'Parental Alienation".
fyi---if dh decides to pursue mental health, I strongly suggest that he AND you start calling it Pathogenic Parenting. Also, I would suggest a Dr. of Child Psychology who will properly diagnosis.
That is IF sd meets the criteria. On Dr. Childress professional website there you will also find PDF letters to send to your lawyer AND to take to your mental health professional. Dr. Childress will be happy to talk with your lawyer and your counselor for free IF they reach out to him.
**not all things are "parental alienation"** OR pas like a lot of people call it.
OP, there are lots of ideas
OP, there are lots of ideas about parental alienation, and Childress's is only one of them. There's no evidence behind his theories, and while I don't disagree with him, he does not have the corner on truth and is not well-known in the mental health community, at least outside perhaps California. If you go to most therapists and say "pathogenic parenting", they will think you have an agenda and will not trust what you are saying.
It's true that not all things are alienation, but alienating behavior is alienating behavior, and what BM is doing is alienating behavior. Alienation requires a kid to respond in a rejecting way to the other parent, which your SD is starting to do. I'd advise your DH to back off on trying to force her to do anything or punish her, as unfair as that may seem right now. She is still willing to speak to him now, but that can change quickly. Just back off and give her some space. Don't hit her over the head with the CO, either, once they are 15 it's hard to enforce visitation.
It will be hard to find a therapist who understands alienation, but there is a lot of information online. Don't just look at Craig Childress, though he does have some useful information. Look around at all the different theories.