PAS and Teens....
So I'm starting a new thread as SD14 is older and BM is now working on SD12 I am certain.
Old thread
https://www.steptalk.org/forum/parenting/teenage-stepchildren/sd14-conti...
DH never got an answer from either BM or SD15 about SD15 coming for the holiday. DH is appropriately angry now with BM rather than SD (he's disappointed in her but his anger is more focused). BM flippantly told him last night the two of them were out to a movie so she couldn't discuss. DH let it be known he was mad in front of SD12 for the first time, and he and I briefly talked in front of her, nothing inappropriate. However we made it clear we were both sad about it.
BM has also been talking with SD12 a lot when she's here. DH is aware of this too. This afternoon I was doing laundry (next to SDs bedroom) caught part of the convo with BM. She was complaining the heat coming into her room wasn't warm (the heat just clicked on) and then was complaining she didn't have anything to do (we just talked the night before about activities) and then told BM she would rather be with her. Then I left as my laundry was done
I let DH know of the call as it was ongoing. He promptly cut off the wifi! Good DH. He's going to follow up with BM about the calls on his time as well. I know BM did this with SD15 too. Makes her seem soooooo caring and look at all the fun stuff we do over here!
Hoping SD12 doesn't do the same thing .It'll break DH's heart. One step at a time.
I sincerely hope that BM
I sincerely hope that BM doesn't get to SD12. I know how heartbreaking it is.
This will be the 4th
This will be the 4th Christmas without SS. Even though he came over a few times this fall, he's gone again, surely part of BM's master plan. SS used to spend his weekends texting BM about how awful our home was, in between having a great time with us.
PA is so sad and so hard to stop.
Why is he speaking to either
Why is he speaking to either of them rather than invoking his rights under the CO and nailing BM with a contempt order?
If he had the funds, he wasn
If he had the funds, he wasn't still paying off debt from the divorce and nightmare custody situation and we lived in a state that wasn't so pro-BM that would be an option.
That doesn't always work,
That doesn't always work, especially with teenagers who will lie for the PASing parent, and the courts listen to their "voice" in the matter. Even if the kid is ordered to come, the court can't make them and the police won't enforce civil court orders (here anyway). It becomes a never-ending cycle that costs thousands in money and untold amounts in emotional capital and stress, only to go nowhere.
All far to often true. My
All far to often true. My default is action. While do nothing is always an option if doing nothing corrects nothing then why do nothing?
I would be at that BM's door to collect my kid and if the police were called I would hand them reems of court orders, documentation, etc.... I would sue the BM for PAS, emotional duress, and anything else that I could dredge up to keep her ass in court all of the time. It might cost me but it would for damned sure cost her. I can recover. I would do my best to make sure she couldn't.
When that kid hit 18 I would send them copies of every sordid little detail of their BM's crap, the divorce, and any thing and everything that was pertinate to the manipulation that their BM perpetrated against them and against me.
I might not win, but I wouldn't lose without doing anything and everything I possibly could, within the bounds of the law, to protect the best interests of my kid.
This is what we did to protect my SS from the toxic manipulations of his SpermClan. The crap the shallow and polluted end of his gene pool put him through had to be dealt with. So we dealt with it.
Yes, DH's default is often
Yes, DH's default is often inaction. And we do not live within easy access of BM so going to "retrieve" her would be way out of the way. Plus I fully believe that BM is protected by her neighbors (townhome co-housing complex) and they all dislike DH. I wouldn't wish him there if I could.
He has been, one time, crystal clear with SD about the divorce. She began just hounding him about what happened and insinuating it was him that was the problem - one night he just let loose and hold her how it was (he want a little too far but not too bad). I think that is what made her decide to go - ironically she wanted the truth but she still wanted her little bubble around her. Oh, he'll definately inform her of things around age 18. He has that planned.
Same situation
I'm in a very similar situation. My DH always defaults to inaction. I can see that one SS will be PA'd soon, but while DH recognizes that, his preferred option is to pretend it's not happening, so he does nothing.
The SS who is soon to be PA'd also repeatedly tries to get DH to admit that the divorce was his fault. Last summer he kept saying, "I know secrets. Mom told me secrets." Then when he was just with DH he said, "I know secrets Dad, Mom told me how you caused the divorce." I'm assuming BM said this because she figures that SSs are now old enough to realize that her current "husband" (in quotes because even though they say they are married, they never legally got married) and his child moving in less than four months after BM kicked DH out looks a little fishy. The kids don't know that BM's "husband" moved in before BM had ever even officially filed for divorce. I don't think DH responded at all. He may have said they were both at fault. He didn't tell SS the truth about BM, but then again, that SS doesn't really want the truth. He wants DH to tell him that he (DH) thinks that BM is wonderful and he's so sad that he's not married to her anymore, because that's what BM wants, even though she is "remarried" herself.
This is exactly why kids need
This is exactly why kids need the facts and the truth. So that one parent can't lie and manipulate to victimize both the kids and the other parent.
We took the "and now for the rest of the story" approach to countering the lies and manipulations of the blended family opposition. We did not start it, but we damned sure finished it each and every time they started that crap.
They hate the facts. They avoid them at all costs. IMHO those that start the manipulations are petrified of the facts. And that is exactly why the opposition and the kids should be force fed the facts any time the opposition lies and manipulates.
Some examples that we had to counter.
Toxic people hate facts. Particularly ones that are documented.
Totally agree with Tog (AGAIN
Totally agree with Tog (AGAIN LOL)...true.
It is a never ending cycle that many target parents walk away from.
I think DH was emailing BM
I think DH was emailing BM again, because he was upset about having SD12 go back to BMs tomorrow.
1) No, I do NOT agree to have BM come to our home to pick her up just because it makes things 'more difficult' for her. I want her nowhere near our house. Noted to him that she'll also want to pick up the rest of "SD15s things" so unless he also wants to hand over all that just drive SD12 to the pickup point. It's not that far away.
2) Do NOT withhold SD12 from BM. Is he crazy!? NO NO! This will make war DH. You want to disengage from BM. He is upset that 'nothing is getting resolved' and he's 'tired of always doing nothing' but War is not your option!
3) Keeping open lines of communication with SD15 does not mean that there will be resolution or disucssion. You are simply letting her know you are there and will be there. That's it. Don't expect a fix to this at this point.
4) Discussion of not engaging with BM and reading the freaking book on PAS and helping SD12 AGAIN - then I cut him off after he said he 'knows what the book will say' so why bother? Oh, DH, have you read anything about PA? Until you have no further discussion with me. Done again. (at least this was the shortest convo we've had about it as I'm getting better at disengaging from the situation)
I'm glad we have friends coming over this weekend, our friend's son has done this to his dad so he really gets it and will talk with DH.
So our trip in the spring is
So our trip in the spring is on with SD12 (then 13). BM has agreed it will be a good trip (overseas). We just need her updated passport info.
DH also told BM that he would take SD15 if she wanted to go (it's a family trip) BUT she has to make some effort to reconcile. No word on this of course. We discussed this and I told him he could include her if he wanted to but none of my funds will pay for her at all during the trip if she goes and I will not be responsible for anything she does or asks for or anything unless she is rude to my face. AND he needs to be aware that she could fake it for the trip, come back and disappear again.
DH said that he wouldn't be suprised if nothing happens with her, and BM tells her, "It's too bad you aren't going with them but hey, you and could do THIS fabulous trip instead!" I said, now that will likely happen as it's classic PAS!
DH now needs to give BM a date by which SD15 needs to begin serious talks with him because we'll need to buy tickets in the very near future. I told him get a date, get the passport info and only then will I help him look for tix.
Had a good talk with DH last
Had a good talk with DH last night.
He was still going through guilty thoughts for not 'asking SD15' to go on overseas trip with us. Excuse me, I said. You asked BM and told her your expectations about it weeks ago and you've heard nothing. Silence is your answer. DH says, but what if BM didn't talk to her? Again, another delay tactic to give SD and BM more time to come to their senses. Not having it.
DH you can contact SD if you want. However, I have to make plans this coming week to purchase tickets. I will not have my expenses compromised by this situation which we have discussed. We need to purchase now. Whatever SD and BM do is out of your control and I will not wait and I do not want her coming if it's just to get to go to Europe. What happened to the idea that she needs to make a effort to talk to you first?
... I don't want to talk about this any more. Just go ahead and find tickets (including SD12). I'm afraid BM hasn't even told her...maybe she doesn't know she's invited ...
Again, you can contact SD15. And I encourage you to do it, but don't expect anything is all.
So That's Fun
We also think DH has been blocked from SD12s phone. SD12 has no idea what's going on, she's really not good with tech stuff. I believe her. DH and I think SD15 has got into SD12s phone and messed with her contacts. And that, I told DH is beyond messed up if so. DH needs to be able to contact SD12 when she's with us. He's going to pull her phone soon to check it.
I also told him his daughters are wierd, I adore SD12 but again, wierd. Not Altogether normal kids. He's like, "I know.... it's BM"
Well it seems SD15 is not
Well it seems SD15 is not going. DH is meeting up with BM along with SD12 to get SD12s passport updated, but not SD15s. At least that's known and we can finally proceed with trip planning.
I am so sorry that you guys
I am so sorry that you guys are going through this stuff too.
At least you have your answer, I guess.
At least you have an answer
At least you have an answer and can focus on making plans and enjoying yourself now.
It is tough with teens.
It is tough with teens. Sometimes it's not just the other parent "PAS'ing" but kids want to stay in their primary home area because .. they have a social life.. they have friends.. they have their "stuff"... they also have activities.. sports etc. When my DH's girls got to be teens he tended to get them less on a regular basis..but more longer stretches during school breaks.
But.. what he DID do was he had daily calls.. sometimes twice daily calls to say hello.. make sure they were up (mom went to work early) and then to see how their day was after school. We aren't talking intrusive calls.. but brief catch up calls that allowed him to be a daily presence in their lives.. even if it wasn't physical. I know some people don't like calls on "their time" but, I think it's ok as long as the calls are brief and don't involve "I miss you so much.." make the kid feel bad stuff.
This is my future
I'm almost 100% certain that this is my future. One SS is so enmeshed with BM and spends every visit with us texting BM to tell her how bored he is, how mean DH is to him, how he doesn't want to be at our house, etc. BM responds by telling him he is right to feel that way and then texting DH to tell him that SS "feels so uncomfortable around you" and "is always upset at your house." Right now, we entice SS to visit with skiing trips, but it's only a matter of time before he stops coming. Part of this will be his age. I don't think he spends much time at home when he is at BM's house, he's more likely to be off getting into trouble. But a big part of it is also BM, who since the divorce has been trying to prove to her children that she cares more, she does more for them, and she's more fun than DH. She's more concerned about making DH feel bad and look bad than she is about co-parenting.
DH is not good about maintaining contact outside of visitation. He used to call them periodically, but they rarely answer the phone, so he gave up. I think he could have done more to retain his place as their parent, but you have to maintain that foundation when you're not around all the time,especially when BM actively works to undermine him (e.g. SSs were encouraged to call BM's "husband" "dad" and "our father" almost as soon as he moved in, she tells DH and the kids that he is not allowed to talk to them on "her time", etc). He's also terrible in general at doing those types of things. In the past, I've offered suggestions on how he could do this, but then decided that I can't take that on myself or I'll then own the burden of his maintaining his relationship with his kids, as well.
In the end, the breakdown of the relationship between DH and his kids will be due in large part to BM's efforts to PA, but also due to inertia on the part of both DH and SSs.
Following up.... I appreciate
Following up.... I appreciate all the input! StrugglingSM, yes exactly.
Well SD15 is going to be at the passport office after all. I didn't know that. So as I was getting ready to buy our plane tix DH tells me not to. After several excuses, he finally tells me he hopes SD15 comes. WTF?! DH, what happened to the requirements and commitments we agreed she needed to make BEFORE we bought tix? Or her not even to this day acknowledging your exisistance? His answer, I haven't forgotten and there is still time. Me:. OK then, at this point I am out of the planning. It's up to you. All I will say is that my costs will not be affected by this situation. Let me know when you have the tickets purchased.
Conversation over. My SIL who I am close to is disgusted. She's who we are staying with. She's also a SM so gets it 100%.
Also, we have been on snow days for two days now. SD12 who I adore is still here, which is hard, but not impossible. She hates snow days and wants to be in school. There's kids here she could get together with but she's above that you know. So she goes running to her phone calling BM several times a day for 30 min at a time. I was disgusted this morning with it and told DH.
So what do you think should happen says DH. Me: you've told BM to knock it off right? Then take her phone. Tell her to get off of it. Something! DH 'sigh' I just don't know what to do, what I can do. Me: if you don't work on it you'll lose her at high school in a year as well. BM is a manipulator and she is working it hard. She's the one who listens who gives advice and all because you don't. You need to read that book on PAS I gave you because it gives examples of how you can counteract it. And I can't help any longer.
Note also he thinks he's blocked from SD12s Skype account ( she is not tech savvy and we both suspect SD15 ). And he's complained and whined about it but done nothing. DH get her phone and check it. Nada.
So at this point I am stepping back. DH simply is taking the easiest route out by doing nothing. He doesn't want to. He doesn't want to parent. I cannot. So I am done.
I am relinquishing all parenting of SD12 now to DH. I will follow through on bringing her go the introductory meeting with the advanced math tutor and I am done.
DH has been commenting to me about their schedule today and I am just nodding, uh-huh.
I cannot care more.
EDIT: DH accidentally scared the cat and he jumped off my lap. I called to cat to come back. DH says, he wanted to go over there. Me, no he didn't, you startled him. DH, no he wanted to go there, then added sarcastic, Although you know your cats best don't you, far be it from me to say anything.
Yeah. Disengaged.
Really? The two of you are
Really? The two of you are arguing over what a cat is thinking?
Together you have a significant opportunity to reset your interface with each other and determine the basic format of moving forward together.
Good luck.
Oh there was no argument - he
Oh there was no argument - he was just being a baby and I ignored him.
There's only so much
There's only so much rejection one person can take.
Holy H*ll. DH's sister
Holy H*ll. DH's sister texted me this morning, "So SD15 is coming?!"
I wrote back, "What?!"
Apparently DH told her SD15 is coming. This would explain his behavior the last two days. He threw a fit over the airline tix cost (all inclusive, great travel dates/times, non-stop flights, free baggage check, etc....) which were reasonable. I'm like, ok then I'm done (see above post). He was texting me all this random flight information yesterday and asking my opinion on these random flights...I'm like, DH, I don't have time at work to look at this. When I got home, I simply told him that if he puts together an itinerary let me know what it is because I cannot plan it at this point. He said he would.
So NOW, I am done done done. He knows that if SD15 comes, and with no expectations of prior rules or needs, then I do not provide anything for him or his daughters on this trip. He gets to be the parent. I do not provide for those who ignore and treat others selfishly. I won't demand she not come, but I will not cater and will be fully disengaged. His sister is aware of this and supports my decision (she is just as shocked).
We'll see when he tells me this. Hopefully it's a misunderstanding but his sister was pretty sure of it.
Get this T-Shirt made.
Get this T-Shirt made.
Front: "Get your daughter away from polite society until she can behave!"
Back: "If you have any questions, read the front of this shirt."
So a follow up to OSD
So a follow up to OSD "apparently" going on the overseas trip with us (soon): https://www.steptalk.org/blog/cover1w/osd-trip-252046
Anyway, DH went ahead and bought the plane tix on his own, with no help from me other than to confirm the travel dates. Good! However, this is still with the knowledge that OSD "...is interested in going." With no discussion between he and OSD at all. She still has yet to contact him. He forwarded the plane itinerary to her and she texted back something like "thanks" and he's SO HAPPY that she responded. I mean, still nothing concrete.
I am doing good staying out of it. He's found a place to stay for the first part of our trip and booked it. I will schedule only one day for he and I alone when SDs will be with his sister, but that's it. When he asks me about something, I'll be affirmative but let him know, "Hey, you get to decide this with/for SDs, just let me know." The only thing I said no to was going to a show with he and OSD - NOT interested. Neither will YSD. So I agreed YSD could hang out with me if they go.
He's so exited to spend time with her, which I understand, but he's got his rose goggles on. He's totally buying her time. But it's his decision.
It's bleeding over into household things though. It was understood that OSDs room would be converted to a guest room that she could use if she ever visited again. Great! He was on board with that and got it. Our dresser is falling apart and we need a new one. I recently re-painted the one OSD was using as a trash/junk container (literally) and said, Hey, DH, we can save some $ and use this one...OSD wasn't using it anyway..." OMG. He did not react well. Acted like I was stealing something from OSD and how could I take something of hers ("Hers DH? NO, it's OURS since she did not use it as a dresser but a trash container and I fixed it up!")...after all she's expecting to come here to HER room and how would I feel if my stuff was given away by my parents. And how could I not support him, etc., etc., etc. and that I need to understand how he feels and make sure that our discussions end up with me agreeing with him. I mean he's acting like she's been gone a week on a regular return to BMs, not the alienated situation it is and how badly she treated her things and our home, not to mention DH.
W. T. H. ??? Seriously he's back to MAJOR disney dad mode and she's not even spoken to him yet! I simply told him, in summary, that fine, if he wants to pull the dad trump card, fine. I will no longer challenge anything to do with SDs. He gets total control since that's what he seems to be saying to me. I do nothing more. Of course then he gets mad at that - because I'm drawing a line. So I reminded him HE wants control he has it. What does he want from me? Really? I can support him but I'm not always going to agree because I am, again, NOT SDs parent.
So in the end I'm going shopping next weekend for a new dresser. I'm for sure not touching anything else of either SDs (I just finished re-flooring the bedrooms and office) so he gets to move their furniture around, not me. Not touching it.
I think the trip will be contentious beyond anything if she goes. One of my friends with an estranged adult SS was horrified - when DH confirmed she had heard right that both SDs were going, she asked "Have you spoken with OSD then?" Nope. Her eyes got as wide as I've ever seen them and she said, "Oh..."