Breakdown or histrionics?
SD14 blew a gasket.
Now, this kid has a storied history of tantrums of varying degrees when she doesn't get what she wants, brief history: arrested twice, once for selling her sister's adderall at school and once for shoplifting. Currently on probation. Blames all of it on "depression", although never shows symptoms of any depression except when punished or held accountable for her actions. After shoplifting arrest, therapist says maybe Bipolar. I know actual bipolar people, and don't you have to have downswings in addition to mania? Anyway.
So the other afternoon, again while on probation, DH discovers she is not where she said she was going be and with people she is not supposed to be hanging out with, along with none of her chores done. So he goes to get her from where she is. She is pissed. She comes in the house, crying, and stomps to her room. She is there calmly (sniffling) for some time while DH and I discuss. After about 30 minutes, I hear her calmly come out of her room and go into the kitchen. She is in there for a few minutes, I wonder if maybe she is going to clean it like she was supposed to. Several minutes pass. I hear a drawer open. Several seconds pass. Suddenly, drawer slams shut and she comes stomping into the living room, screaming about how she is DONE and holding a carving knife to her throat.
She's still screaming all "don't think I won't" while DH gets up and I pick up the phone to dial 911. As DH approaches her telling her to give him the knife, she points it at him and screams to get away from her. He says that I am calling the police. She turns again to me with the knife back at her throat, and screams at me "if you fucking dial that phone" and while she is turned away from him, DH grabs her and wrestles with her, she all the while screaming, "get the fuck off me you psycho" etc. while I am taking to 911, he finally gets the knife away from her and she collapses on the floor screaming, things like "this is all your fault" and "I hate you" etc.
Police arrive and start talking to her. Now she's all "my head hurts" and pulling at her hair and any question they ask her is all "I can't remember" or "I don't know". She then reverts to wailing sobs and "I'm sorry it's all my fault I always mess a everything up and make my dad mad". Eventually the police take her to a psychiatric hospital, she is there now on 72 hour suicide watch.
I would never say this anywhere else, but I think this is all BULLSHIT. This was no psychotic break or hysterical outburst, it was a planned attack. She has tried and failed to maipulate us with anger and pity, so now she is trying fear. She wants to be Ralphie with the soap poisoning and we are sooooo sorry for treating her so badly in giving her consequences for her shitty behavior.
Am I right? Is this a sign of severe mental disorder or just a complete selfish, entitled asshole? How do you tell? How do I ask the doctors this without seeming like the evil step monster?
Any help/advice/condolences would be appreciated.
Condolences on having to cope
Condolences on having to cope with this craziness in your life. SD is screaming for help, obviously. Probably all of the other bullsh*t, troubles with school/law, etc were also cries for attention/help. She is just escalating the situation. Not getting needs met. Not feeling heard. Stuff like that.
I'm assuming that her parents have her in twice week counseling and are working together to help her.
Regarding suicide threats. There are those who say that people who threaten rarely complete. I call bullsh*t on that. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary situation.
Believe her. Do whatever is necessary to get this girl help. Obviously DH/BM and yourself are not finding a good solution.
Thanks so much for your
Thanks so much for your comments, I really appreciate that.
Yes, she is in therapy once a week, sees a psychiatrist once a month, and is in weekly DBT training with her dad. She currently gets most of the attention (both positive and negative) in our household. Because of all of this, I am at a loss as to what more or different kind of attention or help she is seeking. This was of course the most severe of her reactions to the consequences of her actions, but it is not the first. She has before told us that if she can't see her friends, she will kill herself; and that we must want her to be unhappy, because the only thing that makes her happy is her friends. It always stems from being held to her neglected responsibilities, or from being withheld from her social activities.
An actual depressed person typically does not have much interest in social activities.
This makes me think that what she is seeking is a lack of consequences through guilt or fear.
If she was happy with
If she was happy with herself, she wouldn't need the constant distraction of friends to make her feel like life is ok. And there is no typical depressed person. Isolation or loss of interest in friends or hobbies is one of many symptoms of depression. Most people who suffer for depression do not have every single symptom.
JMO but perhaps you need to
JMO but perhaps you need to wait for the 72hr eval/watch period. Let the professionals observe her (they will view her 24/7 even at periods she's unaware she's being watched). DH and you talk to the center they sent her to. Hear what they have to say and they will of course want to listen to DH and you as to your own thoughts and observations.
Disagreeing with their opinion/diagnose doesn't make you an evil SM, this kid may be very unstable or say may be very good at acting. However, if Dad is unhappy/unsatisfied with what the center believes is going on with SD, of course he can seek second and third opinions. If I were you, I'd not let this girl come back right away. So they hold her 72hrs, she's a minor they can't release her unless Dad agrees to take her back into the home. They also can't just let her out on the street at 14. The girl threatened herself, you and her father with a knife. Any one of you could have even accidently been severely injured (or dead. Whether the kid is faking or not she's proven herself a danger in your home. Wait and see what happens with the eval/watch. You and DH have a lot of talking to do in the meantime. If she's faking she is still a very troubled young lady which is out of control. If she's not faking, is your home prepared to be able to take care of the teen with violent tendencies. Some kids like this end up in group homes.
Thank you, and agreed. I will
Thank you, and agreed. I will certainly discuss with DH the idea of having her stay there for a bit.
You're right, histrionics or not, it was a violent outburst, and that alone is a severe problem.
I would seriously be looking
I would seriously be looking at placement in a residential facility. She will be more likely to get the help needed there. That help might be serious psychological and psychiatric help or it might be to teach her to stop playing games.
Taking her home and coddling her is about the worst thing that could happen for her - whether she is truly mentally ill or just a player.
Thank you so much. We are
Thank you so much. We are seeing her doctor there today, and I will definitely look into residential places beforehand so I can discuss. Honestly and selfishly, having her out of the house for some time would be such a huge relief for all of us.
You're right, it's certainly
You're right, it's certainly not a black and white situation here. Regardless of her motivation or motives, it's an alarming incident that needs to be dealt with regardless.
tog, I like you more and more
tog, I like you more and more every day
Thank you so much Jasper! I
Thank you so much Jasper! I truly appreciate your professional insight on this, particularly regarding her skill set. That is so right on.
I am concerned about the potential "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" approach to mental health care. Not that there is not amazing and wonderful work being done in that field, I agree with you that there seems to be a lot of jumping to diagnoses, and to drugs and to treating symptoms rather than underlying causes or motivation.
I am going to assume that the doctor we speak with today did not just fall off the turnip truck and can recognize what is actually going on here. I will be there to provide the honest and unbiased history that DH/BM may not be able to do. I just hope we get put on the right track and that at the very least, there is no more potential for anyone in my family to be hurt.
My guess is she's playing,
My guess is she's playing, and she's likely doing it because it has worked before. If her "episodes" and hysteria get punishments abated or decreased or buy her a reprieve, OF COURSE she will always revert to those tactics.
She's likely literally been "trained" to act like this in little ways. This one was just a whopper.
This is really important and
This is really important and so true!!
I totally agree!!
It will only escalate if you don't nip it in the bud as my SS15 to get his own way, would often threaten suicide.... But with no plan.
He did try finally ( when it wasn't working so it had to escalate) but took panadol, head ache medication and admitted himself to hospital... So if he truly wanted to die, why admit yourself to hospital?
Attention or not, it's still a cry for help.
If I'm not mistaken bipolar
If I'm not mistaken bipolar can not be diagnosed until a person is in their 20's.
It sounds to me like histrionic disorder with boarder-line thrown in. Both are behavioral as opposed to bipolar which is chemical.
BTDT. Ridged structure. Matter of fact consequences. Your house, your rules and there is no discussion as she is the child and has no say n how you run your house. Unless or until she can make appropriate decisions they will be made for her. Parenting from scratch. She has to relearn what is acceptable. This is very hard if all adults are not on the same page. But it is doable. Children learn what is accepted in various situations.
"It sounds to me like
"It sounds to me like histrionic disorder with boarder-line thrown in. Both are behavioral as opposed to bipolar which is chemical."
This is so far off base. Histrionic and borderline are personality disorders. They are not behaviors. And bipolar is not just a chemical thing either.
You are very, very mistaken.
You are very, very mistaken. Bipolar can diagnosed in the teenage years and even in childhood.
Bipolar is a MOOD disorder,
Bipolar is a MOOD disorder, (extreme highs and lows, sometimes involving psychosis). Neurotransmitters are not firing correctly in the brain without medication, (there is a chemical imbalance). It can develop in childhood, but can also take up to twenty years until properly diagnosed. That may be where you got the '20' from.
According to researchers,BP is mainly hereditary, but can also be caused from certain things happening to mom while baby is in the womb, for example high levels of cortisol. Environmental factors can also play a role.
It is so difficult to diagnose because many of these people begin to self-medicate, and there are so many other possibilities to rule out as well.
SS then 15 reacted similarly
SS then 15 reacted similarly but tried to take 96 Panadol then walked to the hospital... So it was a cry for help but with manipulation at its core. I agree with the poster above as in our experience, going back to basic solid parenting in a structured way, has made a dent on SS16's behaviour but at least the histrionics has stopped...
He tries to manipulate, but we don't fall for it and only respond when he is acting normally and don't bite, when Manipulative. It takes time, consistent parenting and consequences.
And BM is totally out of the picture as during his suicidal phase ( when admitted in the childrens psyche ward) SS15 threatened his mother as she refused to sign him out ( as there was nothing clinically wrong with him) and take him home with her as her BF hates SS15.... So once again she abandonded him ( which is the root of the problem)....do BM after being verbally threatened, went down to the police station and put a restraining order on her own son! Classy Act! But then proceeds to tell the world that SHE is the victim. I can see why SS16 is disturbed and he has a lot lf his mothers traits unfortunately.
Anyway, SS16 lives with us FT 24/7 365 days a week. It's bloody hard and we have no breaks. He is still hard work and manipulative and I can't wait till he is old enough to leave home and live his own life!
Sigh
Good luck!
"I know actual bipolar
"I know actual bipolar people, and don't you have to have downswings in addition to mania?"
Nope. Bipolar disorder NOS can occur without depression or without mania.
??? What is NOS? The very
??? What is NOS?
The very definition of bipolar is extreme highs and lows, otherwise know as depression and mania. 'Bi' (2) 'polar' (ends, sides, opposites, etc.).
Are you really telling someone that a person can be bipolar without depression and mania??
From NIMH: Bipolar Disorder
From NIMH:
Bipolar Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (BP-NOS)—diagnosed when symptoms of the illness exist but do not meet diagnostic criteria for either bipolar I or II. However, the symptoms are clearly out of the person's normal range of behavior.
"diagnosed when symptoms of the illness exist" - so some level of depression and/or mania have to exist for there to be a diagnosis of any kind of bipolar.
Thank you notsure. I forgot
Thank you notsure. I forgot what NOS stood for. Nothing against the previous poster, but I hate when people give out incorrect information. Society already has trouble understanding a lot of these illnesses.
My information was not
My information was not incorrect. My degree is in psychology and I take the field very seriously. I don't throw out diagnoses or make up definitions. I've actually read the DSM, many many times.
You do not in fact need both depression and mania to suffer from bipolar. If a person cycles between depression and "normal" or mania and "normal" and meets other criteria, they can be diagnosed with bipolar NOS.
I've done a TON of studying
I've done a TON of studying and research on bipolar for over 20 years now...I've never read about cycling between depression and 'normal' be bipolar. That would just be unipolar depression, and I've never heard of someone having mania, or hypo-mania without depression being diagnosed as bipolar.
I guess I missed something, although I haven't read the DSM in a while...
JustAGirl - I have done tons
JustAGirl - I have done tons of research as well. Apparently we did miss something.
It looks like hypomania can occur without depression and that is one form of Bipolar NOS. I did not see anything stating that the opposite was true - depression without mania also being considered Bipolar. However, I wasn't using the DSM.
I also learned that they made a change in DSM 5 and Bipolar NOS is now called
“Other Specified Bipolar and Related Disorder.”
LadyT - no offense intended. Your first couple of posts were short and lacked detail and I didn't realize what your background was. Thanks for motivating me to do some research!
Holy crap, soon the DSM won't
Holy crap, soon the DSM won't be able to fit on a whole bookshelf by itself!
Then why can't hypomania just be hypomania, why must it be 'bipolar' without depression?
Yeah, guess I need to read up on the latest diagnostic codes!
Damn, what did we do 50 years ago when there wasn't a 'label' for every single little deviation from the 'norm'??? SMH.
I wondered the same thing
I wondered the same thing about hypomania.
The newest DSM also splits depression from bipolar. They each have their own chapter which keeps them from being on the same spectrum. Some doctors think the split is a bad idea because they don't think the division is always that clear cut.
One more reason for some more light reading!
Well, nothing is really ever
Well, nothing is really ever completely clear-cut when it comes to the brain.
Even doctors don't always have the right answers or diagnosis.
We'll never know how much influence drug companies may have into deciding these 'DSM' codes. There are some crooked docs out there who will do anything for money...there should be a diagnosis for that! Actually, I'm sure there already is...probably a mix of the hundreds of different codes.
"She has tried and failed to
"She has tried and failed to maipulate us with anger and pity, so now she is trying fear."
Sounds like you've hit the nail on the head.
"Is this a sign of severe mental disorder or just a complete selfish, entitled asshole? How do you tell?"
Thats a tough one because they can occur together. It sounds like she very well may have serious mental health issues for which she deserves nothing but empathy and treatment. It sounds like she's also being a manipulative jerk (to put it mildly) and for that deserves consequences.
"How do I ask the doctors this without seeming like the evil step monster?"
Any mental health professional worth their salt will fully understand that she can be both legitimately unwell and also creating chaos by choice. I'm not so great with words so can't tell you exactly what to say but you can certainly bring this up and shouldn't be looked at like the evil step monster.
Thank you all so much for
Thank you all so much for your considered and varying responses! I do appreciate so many points of view on this.
What I thought was a visit to see the doctor was actually a family visit which included SD14 as well as her sister, and which started as "parents only" so I did not get a chance to ask any questions. By the time I joined the conversation, it seemed it was generally agreed by all that she go into a 30 day residential treatment DBT program. I was not inclined to argue or question that at all.
Because she was not arguing against it (yet, anyway), and seemed to want help, I am for now giving the benefit of the doubt to SD14. Not that anyone here implied it, but I am really not completely cold-hearted about her.... I was (am) just frustrated, angry, and skeptical due to experience. The idea of being played and made a fool is so disturbing , isn't it? Anyway I realize I have to take care of myself on that front, and am doing so.... And I will give her this chance to get better.
I'll tell you this though.... I am shopping for a taser.
Someone asked where BM is... She moved out of state a few years ago and left us with full custody; and is generally a guilty 'BFF' Disney type parent. As absent as she is, I will give her credit for driving all night to get here to deal with this.
This sounds like a major step
This sounds like a major step in the right direction. Good for you guys for taking action...a lot of parents don't.