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HCBM’s parents paying for things than BM asking to be reimbursed.

Biostep7777's picture

BM's parent are extremely wealthy and spoil the grandkids rotten. No issue there if that's what they want to do. However, BM is now asking DH to "reimburse" her for things her parents pay for. He's required to pay if he agrees and has said "I would love for them to do that but I can't afford it at this time" her parents will pay for it then she will basically write down that he said he wants them to do it but couldn't afford it at that time so he needs to reimburse. 
 

How does this come into play when the grandparents are paying for things?? Does he still need to reimburse???

tog redux's picture

Most likely, yes - if it falls under the category of things that would be covered by the CO, like braces or extracurriculars.

ESMOD's picture

I am reading this as these are things that are only required for him to share if he AGREES to allow the children to do the activity or thing.  So, not a dentist ordered braces.. or optometrist prescribing contacts or glasses.  These might be a summer camp or participation on a travel ball team etc..  

So, under this assumption, she is being fairly generous with his wording taking the "I would love to have them do it.." as basically agreeing to the activity or purchase... just splitting hairs on the timing of when he might be paying his half.

If he wants to stop this cycle.. he needs to stop being so polite in his wording.  It's irrelevant whether she is paying the other half or whether her parents pony it up when it comes to his obligation really.

Can we get Cindy a new TUBA for her band participation this year? insteady of "him saying "I would love to but can't swing that right now".. he needs to clearly tell her "I am not able to agree to that purchase if you proceed, it will be at your own cost 100%"  

Again.. I am only suggesting this for things that are not clearly CO obligations like medical care.

ndc's picture

He would need to reimburse if it was something court ordered. It wouldn't matter whether initially BM's parents paid for it, she got a loan to pay it, or whatever - it would ultimately be DH's obligation.  If it's something he needs to agree to before being obligated to reimburse, he needs to cut out the "I would love for them to do that" and just say no.  Since he knows BM does this, clarity is key - let there be no doubt.  For things that kids have already done that she's seeking reimbursement for, I would take the position that him saying he would love for them to do it but he couldn't afford it was NOT an agreement to pay for it, and I would not reimburse her.  But he needs to eliminate any confusion going forward.

Biostep7777's picture

Yes he reimbursed everything they agree to. It's not those things that are black and white. It's those gray areas that we have to figure out. 

justmakingthebest's picture

Like the others said, it would need to be reimbursed if it is something in their agreement. HOWEVER- I would expect receipts and I would pay BM, not her parents as the custody agreement is with her not them. I am not sure how your CO is worded but if extra curriculars are to be split, something like a dance class, send her another option of one through parks and recs instead of a big time dance studio- offer to pay 1/2 of that rate which will be substantially less (when I compared them for my own DD when she was little parks and rec had ballet for like $25 for 8 weeks and the local dance studio wanted over $100 per month).

If extras are to be agreed on, he has to change his wording to BM- No more I would love if she could do that. His stance needs to be, this is excessive and he doesn't agree with the cost of the activity.

If it is not something that would be covered in the CO, I would just remind them that you already stated that is was something you couldn't afford. 

Jcksjj's picture

I agree with changing the wording. This is such a weird thing to me. Why don't the grandparents just pay for the activity if they are wealthy and want to? And they set it up so basically your DH has to either be the bad guy and say no I don't want them in it or end up paying for it himself at some point when he can't afford it now? Wth. 

ESMOD's picture

I think the grandparents DO pay for 100%.. I don't think BM is giving them back the money.. this is just going in her pocket.

Biostep7777's picture

We know this is the case so we are reimbursing and she is pocketing it which is messed up. 

tog redux's picture

I think BM is pissed off that OP's DH wants to change the agreement to make it more fair, so she's socking it to him wherever she can.

Biostep7777's picture

100%! She has never cared about money snd has been very clear that if he can't do it her parents will take care of it. Now he started a lawsuit and she and she stopped asking for reimbursement because he said she needs to provide a receipt. She refused to give receipts so he didn't pay. She wanted to show he won't reimburse her. So, her parents just paid for everything. Her attorney must have told her that if she doesn't produce receipts then he is not going to be dinged for not handing over whatever money you ask for so now she's scrambling and producing receipts for things over the past year but we know the grandparents just gave her money to cover all this and they also give her money for everything else so wondering how her parents paying for everything factors into what we are required to reimburse. 

ESMOD's picture

If these are court ordered items.. and she has provided recpts.. it doesn't matter who paid her half really.. he needs to pay his half.  Unless there is some stipulation that she has to provide the recpt within a certain time period.. and she is past that.. he needs to pay.  Unless these are for things in the category of "mutual agreement" like an extra curr activity. (not "mutual awareness like medical exp").

lieutenant_dad's picture

If we're talking about non-essentials not outlined in the CO, then your DH doesn't reimburse.

My MIL got into the habit of paying for things for the SSs and then expecting DH to pay her back. The last time I remember it happening, it was so the boys could participate in some sort of skating event sponsored by their school. DH had told BM he wasn't paying for that (it was only $30 or something) because he wasn't driving to the other side of town to pay for it when he it was that cheap and he paid CS. 

So in comes MIL who paid for it, plus bought the boys and BM dinner and snacks, and all of a sudden she is demanding $60+. DH plainly told her no, and anything else SHE paid for in the future was on her.

If DH says no, and it's not something he is COed to pay, stick with it. Otherwise, he'll end up paying for half the wealthy grandparents' Christmas presents to the kids.

Biostep7777's picture

Oh he's not!!! I'm just curious if the grandparents are always giving her money for things for the kids then who is ge reimbursing?? Even if they agree on something, if the grandparents say "oh we will pay for that" isn't that a gift??? It's confusing me. I guess if my dad said he would pay for a camp as a gift to the kids, even if their dad agreed I wouldn't ask my kid's dad to reimburse me for something I didn't pay for.  Maybe I'm just seeing this differently. 

lieutenant_dad's picture

You have a very different type of co-parenting relationship than your DH does, and likely ever will have. That is something you're going to have to accept. Not understand. Not like. Just accept. 

You'll never be able to control how or why BM does something. Interacting with her for the next however many years is going to be a challenge, and your household will have to do things that seem anathema to logic.

Biostep7777's picture

Oh I get that! I'm just wondering on a legal level (we are getting ready to go to court) his this usually is viewed in court. Yep, I have been working on "radical acceptance" lol 

ndc's picture

If the grandparents give her $$, they're giving it to BM, not handing over money for the benefit of your DH. He can still be expected to reimburse BM, IF it's court ordered (like medical or something he agreed to). Money is fungible - it doesn't matter where BM got the money or if her parents gave it to her and she paid or if they paid it directly on her behalf.  The only thing that matters here, IMO, is whether it's court ordered.

Biostep7777's picture

Not sure what you mean by "the benefit of my DH" if they pay for something then why should he give BM money too so she can pocket it? It seems odd to me. If anything ge should be giving of to the grandparents. 

ndc's picture

What I mean is BM's parents will want THEIR money to benefit their daughter, not your DH. Just because they give her the full cost of a grandchild's activity doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer that your DH pay his half. And many wealthy grandparents are trying to move money out of their estates to their children, so they'd prefer that DH pay his share to BM, not to them.

None of that changes my statement that he should only pay for court ordered items, of course.

ESMOD's picture

Whether BM gets money to do things from grandparents.. or not is irrelevant.  Your DH is not a party to their agreement on these payments.. For all you know, they are full aware of the fact that your DH should pay half.. but they think he is a deadbeat.. so they are paying it.  But, he doesn't have an agreement with them.. just with BM.

If these are things he is legally obligated to pay for.. braces... eyeglasses... legit school supplies.. and that is in his CO.  If he is presented with a bill.. he needs to pay half.  It doesn't matter if BM was gifted money.. stole money.. earned it.. it doesn't make a difference in HIS obligation to pay for his half.

If this is a summer band camp that he told her he cannot afford... then he does have a leg to stand on potentially.. he is couching his words in a way that she is interpreting as "agreement".. so he needs to be crystal clear that he is not agreeing to spend the money on said band camp... he may get traction on THIS in court as he can probably argue he did not agree.. her interpretation of his words could be questioned.

advice.only2's picture

Sounds like your DH is going to need his lawyer to subpoena all of BM's financials and get a forensic accountant involved if he wants to stop the hemorrhaging.

ESMOD's picture

Why? I mean... it really doesn't matter if her parents are giving her money... for watever reason.. to buy her groceries.. to pay for her kid's activities.. to buy a car.. it really doesn't matter.  

It isn't "income" to BM.. it won't impact any calculation period.  If he has an obligation to pay for half of something.. then he needs to pay it (if there is a question whether an item is an ordered item per the CO.. that is different..).  It doesn't matter if BM's parents loaned her.. or gifted her money to allow her to make the payment up front.   It doesn't matter if they don't make her pay them back.. all that matters is HIS obligation per the CO.

Gifts from her parents won't impact any CS obligation.. because they could be withheld at any moment right? they are gifts.. not income.  If she produces legit invoices/reciepts.. that is all that matters for his obligation for payment.

I'm not saying it's "fair" for her to have access to her parents' money and not have to pay them back... but it is what it is.. it has no bearing on your DH's legal case.

Biostep7777's picture

That's true! I was just trying to figure out the logic in my head. That makes sense 

Rags's picture

Nope, I would not pay it.  Gramma and Grampa More Bucks support their worthless daughter, she can reimburse them if she wants them reimpursed.

This is a kill I would die on.

Rags's picture

When we initiated a CS review after 9 years of CS at $133/mo the SpermClan, primarily driven by SpermGrandHag, we knew would request that my income be considered in establishing their CS level.  That was a common tactic for them to try in order to minimize their CS obligation to the support of our son.

While SParent income cannot be considered in setting CS in SpermLand courts, idiot deadbeat POS underperforming NCP BioParents can weasel out of a portion of their CS obligation by requesting an income reduction credit due to a high earning custodial SParent..  In our original court hearing the Judge ruled "StepDad makes a very good income and BioDad should not be penalized by having to subsidized an artificially elevated standard of living for this child."  His moron Honor in the stupid Harry Potter robes slinging the drooling dipshit Fisher-Price wooden hammer then awarded the SpermIdiot  the maximum income reduction credit of  -$1000/mo income to lower his CS obligation to the Skid.  It pissed me off to no end that that shallow and polluted gene pool benefited in any way from my income.  A calming element of the outcome is that after court that day I dove into online CS calculator for SpermLand and discovered that even with the maximum income reduction credit applied his maximum CS obligation was only reduced by $50/mo.  But that $50 was mine and ... that they had it pissed me off.

When we went to court for the CS review after 9 years we were ready for their request for my income to be consideration calculating CS.  The SpermIdiot lives rent free in an investment property owned by the SpermGrandParents, he drives cars that they own, they paid for the Spermidiot's share of visitation travel plane fares, and at that time they were raising his three younger also out of wedlock Spermidiot spawn by two other baby mamas in their home while paying his CS obligation to my SS and the two other baby mamas.  Basically, he lived for free, had zero financial responsibility for providing for his spawn, and his income as a voluntarily under employed licensed plumber had zero demands against it other than internet, gaming, and food for him.

So..... we counter motioned for the SpermGrandParents income to be added to his for calculation of CS.  

Diablo

The Judge during the CS review took our motion under consideration which sent SpermGrandHag into apoplexy.  I liked that... a lot.  I know, bad Rags, bad.

She went off on the Judge spouting about who cares what support she and SpermGrandPa provide for their son and grand children.  The Judge gave her clarity that providing a rent free home for the Spermidiot to live in, raising his children in their home with no financial contribution from the Spermidiot, giving him cars, and paying his CS obligations for him was income to him and could be considered in establishing his CS obligation fo his eldest child. They claimed that the Spermidiot was paying rent, paying SpermGrandHag monthly for caring for his kids, reimbursing her for paying his CS, etc.... So, my incredible bride asked where the documentation was for all of that..... Crickets.  Then she asked the Spermidiot how much his rent was, how much his CS was, and how much he was paying SpermGrandHag for raising his children in her home.  He had no idea.  SpermGrandHag attempted to pull numbers out of her ass but DW objected loudly that she was not a party to the case and could not speak.  They had asked that I not be included in the telephone hearing since the first Judge 9 years before had ruled that I was not a party to the case.  The Judge backed my DW and scolded SpermGrandHag to be quiet unless she was specifically asked a question.  That pissed the Hag off to no end.

Both parties were pro se during the CS review hearing though we did consult with our killer shark attorney while preparing for court..  It took a year to get them to court. The Spermidiot had repeatedly refused delivery of the summons documents, had physically run from the Constable who was serving him with the summons, and refused to provide any of the information demanded by the DA to establish his new CS level.  The DA's office called my wife to see if she had his income information, etc....   She went CPA on his ass.  She had his tax returns from when they were a couple, she provided the DA with his employers contact information, she provided a copy of his state issued Plumbers License, and official income distribution matrices for Plumbers in the SpermClan's county of residence and the county of the Spermidiot's  employer.

The DA raised his CS from $133/mo to $785/mo.  All with zero participation or input from the Spermidiot.  The DA also invoked direct income withholding of CS from his pay checks.  When he got his first $0.00 pay check he came screaming into court demanding a reduction of his CS.  So... off to court we went.  It was a telephone hearing.  We provided a ream of information to the Court.  Years of tax returns, information on our house payments, 401Ks, IRAs, brokerage accounts, tax information for our school district, day care cost information, and air fare costs for visitation travel.

He provided only his last two pay stubs and none of the other information demanded by the Court.

So, if BM in your situation is supported by her parents, their income could be ruled as her income since they support her with a significant monatary advantage.

Give it a try. At the very least..... having their noses rubbed in the smelly parts of their life's carpet is incredibly satisfying to witness.

Good luck.

Diablo