What are reasonable expectations?
I’ve been dating a wonderful man with 2 kids 8 and 16 from 2 different moms. Wife #3, mother of SS8 is still very involved in their lives. They have been married for 15 years, polyamorous for the last 9 years (yes while trying to have a kid). And according to her, they haven’t been together for the past 3 years. She moved out into her own apartment 2 years ago. Because the divorce with wife #2 was very awful, resulting in endless bitter custody battles over SD16, he is terrified of having the same issues with Wife #3.
They are still legally married, call each other best friend, and affectionately Baby Mama and Baby Daddy. I know that she was the “love of his life” and that she was the one who opted to end things. They are excellent co-parents and place a strong emphasis on family. They live 20 miles apart. SS8 is shuffled back and forth between them almost every other night. He gets to choose which house he stays at unless one of them has a scheduling conflict. He is a wonderful, well-adjusted child.
When we started dating, I learned that (before I came along) they were still occasionally sleeping together, on the odd drunken night out together. We immediately had a conversation about exclusivity and he told me that he wanted to be with me exclusively. I am the first person he has been serious about since they’ve split. She had also agreed with him that because we were dating, that she and he would no longer be sleeping together. A week later I asked him to set a boundary about her sleeping in his bed. He had picked her up drunk one night and just let her sleep there. He had to get up for work about an hour later. I know nothing happened and I appreciate his honesty. He’s abided by that boundary since. If she stays over it’s on a mattress on the floor in SS8’s room.
When we first started dating I noticed that there was still a lot of unfinished business. They still had all their finances together. He was managing their money, paying the bills for both households. They would have dinner together, often with SS8 during custody exchanges and even spend the day at each other’s houses hanging out. They went on family vacations together. They would go out with friends together. She is a drinker and would often call him late at night to come get her when she was either a) too drunk to drive or b) having problems with her date. There was still a big picture frame with a collage of photos from their wedding hanging in his bedroom. All her makeup, hair stuff, vaginal cream etc is still in the bathroom. She has a bunch of clothes (that she hasn’t worn in 2 years) hanging in his closet. She still has a bunch of stuff at his place, like arts and crafts things, sex toys, suitcases etc.
We fell for each other right from the start. We’ve seen each other every single day for months until I moved 1 ½ hours further away for a great opportunity for amazing housing. He did not introduce me to his kids for 5 months, so I was constantly revolving around her schedule and when she’d have their son. SD16 moved in with him 4 months into our relationship. She was having mental health problems and Wife#2 didn’t want her anymore. Many nights our “dates” would consist of us sitting in the driveway holding hands for an hour before bedtime. He’d started talking about introducing me to his kids 2 months into our relationship but had been dragging his feet with it. He ended up introducing me to SD16 about 2 weeks after she’d moved in (at our 4 month mark). She liked me immediately and we’ve been close ever since. I really adore both of his kids.
He continued to drag his feet about introducing me to SS8. I’d been asking to meet Wife#3 for quite a while by then, because I thought 1) it would be nice for her to meet me before I met her kid and 2) it would give us a chance to get to know each other better and hopefully become friends. He’s made it very clear that they are family and she’s not going anywhere etc. He’s been extremely nervous about introducing us or even talking to her about it. I offered to give her my number, invite her to lunch and was told “she’s not ready for that”.
The problem with this is that I was constantly being excluded from his family life and limited to seeing him only when SS8 wasn’t around. Around month 5, I explained that if we were as serious as he’d been talking, (eventually moving in together etc.) that he needed to introduce me to his ex and to SS8 and that I was reaching my breaking point in our relationship. He promised to figure it out within the week. I gave him 3 weeks. At the end of 3 weeks we all met for dinner. He was extremely awkward and nervous. I was warm and friendly. She was civil but trying. I could see that there is no romance between them. This opened the door for me to come to the first family event with the kids and meet his family. She opted not to come. She doesn’t always come to family things and she doesn’t like his family. I liked his family immensely and they also warmed up to me. I thought everything was going well until he broke up with me 2 weeks later saying he just wasn’t ready and didn’t think he could devote the time and attention to our relationship that he felt I deserved.
I started to move on with my life. We remained friends, talking occasionally. He went on family vacations with her and kids over Thanksgiving. Three weeks after we’d broken up, he began calling me again, flirting, etc. I kept him firmly in the friend zone even though there was a lot of sexual tension between us. We kept seeing each other until right before Christmas we broke down in each other’s arms and I told him to stop pretending we were just friends. He said, “I love you” for the first time and told me he didn’t want to let me go. He took down her wedding pictures from the bedroom (which I’d been asking him to do for months). He spent Christmas with her, the kids and his family. They had a talk over Christmas holiday about how this would be their “last family Christmas” and that next year they wanted to do an Air BNB together and bring their significant others, expanding the family vacation. I spent Christmas alone. I told him I required 2 things from him if we’re going to continue. 1) that we make time to see each other 3x/week and 2) that I not be excluded or compartmentalized from the rest of his life. We began picking up where we left off, doing the holidays together, spending time with the kids, even going on a double date with Wife#3 and her then boyfriend.
I love this man. I love his kids. They are attached to me too. He makes me want to settle down and be part of his life and help him with all he’s got on his plate. (He works 3 jobs.) I am getting more and more emotionally invested with him and with his kids. My job situation gives me weeks off at a time, allowing me to stay at his place. I’ve just finished staying at his place for 3 weeks, “playing house”. I’m taking the kids to school in the am, helping out with Wife#3’s business, cooking, cleaning etc. while studying for my medical boards. (My help allows her to make more money and gives him a break from his 3rd job). About a month ago he had a talk with her and they divided up their bills and finances so that she can figure out her budget and be responsible for her own money and bills. I think she wants this. She seems to want her own life and some autonomy. She and I only recently have had lunch together with SS8 when Dad wasn’t around. We had a chance to relax around each other and I felt it went well. She seemed surprised when I mentioned I’d been trying to do this sooner and was told she wasn’t ready.
So yes, it’s great that they are good co-parents and still care for each other. Yes, it’s great that they have separated so slowly that it’s prevented SS8 from feeling like his family is breaking apart. Yes, it’s great that he’s loyal and still wants to take care of her and is slowly starting to separate things. Yes, it’s great that he’s still very close with her family. There are about 10 cousins and the kids are growing up together. Her family is even nice to me, though I think they are still trying to figure stuff out themselves.
What’s driving me nuts. Her clothes (that she hasn’t worn for 2 years) are still in his closet. Her stuff is still in the bathroom. When I leave he makes sure I take every last pair of underwear with me “because I might need it”. I think it’s a sign that he’s not ready to let her go and make room for me in his life. She’s offered at least 3x to come and get her stuff out of his house and he’s told her that there’s no rush. That he’s not gonna throw his Baby Mama’s stuff out in the street. She has a relatively small apartment with very little storage space. This is very common in the high rent area where we live.
I’m struggling with feelings of insecurity and jealousy. This is the first time I’ve ever dated someone with kids. My late husband died and we didn’t get to have children. I’m past the point of having kids of my own and it’s too much for me to handle, especially since I’m building a new career, which I truly enjoy. I love having his kids in my life. I hate that her personal items are still there. I hate all the Mr. & Mrs. knicknacks that are everywhere.
I hate that they are still legally married “for insurance, because it’s cheaper” etc. They’ve been such great co-parents and family that I think many people in town still think they are together. I occasionally get the odd look from a waitress when we eat at a restaurant. (I’ve only lived here a year.)
Can anyone give me some perspective on what’s appropriate here? I’m not asking to remove her from all the family photos or saying I don’t want her to come around. I know this family unit has to include everyone if it’s going to work. SS8 deserves it. I know how much he loves his mommy and how painful it would be for him to think she wasn’t welcome. And yes, I’ve mentioned about her stuff, multiple times and I’ve been told that he just doesn’t notice it and he’s too busy to clean out his closet.
Can anyone here tell me how they were able to set appropriate boundaries or what kinds of things you just have to live with and accept as part of their significant other’s baggage?
DH and I are polyamorous. DH
DH and I are polyamorous. DH and BM were polyamorous.
There is not a snowball's chance in Hades that I'd allow their wedding photos to remain hanging on the wall in a room I'm routinely having sex with my DH in. Or having her clothes in the closet that I routinely undress in. Or have her bath products in the bathroom that I take long, hot baths in (and sexy time showers).
My opinion is that your BF and his XW have taken polyamory to mean that they can maintain their relationship more closely than a monogamous couple would. And they TOTALLY can. What your BF can't do, though, is play being monogamous with you while still playing polyamorous with her. Even if they aren't sleeping together, it doesn't sound like they've "uncoupled" either.
Sex isn't what makes a relationship exclusive or monogamous. Your BF needs to decide what he wants, because unless you want to be part of a polyamorous relationship with him and his XW, the status quo isn't going to give you the monogamy you seek. He can be a good co-parent without being her friend, and storing her crap, and sharing holidays, and you two being best buds who have lunch together, etc. If you want all of that, great! But if you don't, you need to make it clear to him that you don't and let him decide if he'd rather keep his XW or keep you.
Stop trying to bend into a pretzel to fit THEIR relationship. You and BF need to establish your own relationship, but he needs to be full severed from the other relationship first. That means packing her crap and giving it back to her *this weekend*. That means coming up with a custody schedule. That means splitting holidays. That means not picking her drunk arse up and keeping her for the night. If he can't do those bare minimum things, then he's not really ready to be in a relationship with you. He's just ready to play house with you.
This man is not available for an exclusive relationship.
This man is not available for an exclusive relationship. If that is what you want, he is not the man for you - at least right now. You said he and his wife were polyamorous while they were living together. From what I can tell, they still are, even though they aren't living together and are supposedly not having sex. What you will have with this man is a non-traditional relationship that involves a third person to some extent. If you are ok with that, then the three of you will have to work out your boundaries.
If you are looking for a traditional relationship, then the things that are concerning you are perfectly valid and make sense. He needs to finalize the divorce and cut all ties that have nothing to do with the child. She does not sleep over at his house and removes all her personal belongings. He doesn't go do things with her and the child without you.
Honestly, it sounds like you want a traditional relationship and he is does not. He is still way to emeshed with her to move on exclusively with you.
The enmeshment here is off
The enmeshment here is off the scale. You are being sucked into their world. The fact that he is stalling on her moving her gear is a HUGE red flag. He is not over her despite what he says. My advice is to drop him until he is really free to be with you. Otherwise, you are going to play second fiddle and sister wife to her.
Has it occurred to you that they might be grooming you to join an open relationship?
I would be out of there so fast you wouldn't see me for dust. I don't share my man with ANYONE.
The grooming thing sounds
The grooming thing sounds super plausible to me. Many folks who try polyamory to "save the relationship" don't continue it once the relationship breaks down. If they do continue it, they are generally open about it. Very few play the "well we were, but now we're not even though we've still be sleeping together and keep super close lives". Those folks are still polyamorous with their former spouse, they just aren't spouses or nesting partners anymore. They've just morphed the relationship into something new, and instead of being honest about that (either with themselves or others), they play games with other people.
It's unethical.
Sounds like the taboo nature
Sounds like the taboo nature of the relationship is what is so appealing to both of you...not saying that is wrong, but if you are looking for exclusivity with him I don't think that's going to happen.
"Can anyone give me some
"Can anyone give me some perspective on what’s appropriate here? I’m not asking to remove her from all the family photos or saying I don’t want her to come around. I know this family unit has to include everyone if it’s going to work. SS8 deserves it. I know how much he loves his mommy and how painful it would be for him to think she wasn’t welcome."
Well, my SKs' BM is not fucking welcome. Not by me nor DH. And DH does not give a flying crap about the kids having known that since they were young kids. In fact, when my SKs were young, we found out that SD11 at the time and now 32, was letting BM into our house to spend the day while we were at work. DH told the SKs that the block watch captain has been notified that anyone not belonging to our immediate family (me, DH, the kids) coming into our house while DH and I aren't there will be hauled off by the police. DH and I were both so fucking enraged. Divorce is divorce for a reason. It means the end of a marriage. It means Mom's house and Dad's house, but not both their houses. Also, as the woman of MY house, I have every right to run MY house as MINE and not by some other broad. No way in hell!
My friend just divorced her ass of an ex because of spending Christmas on her own for the last 24 years while her stx ran off to spend Christmas with his ex and 42 and 38 year old kids. All while the stx was saying "it's for the kids." Yeah a 42 and 38 year old, Um, suuuuuuure! My friend served her ex a couple of weeks ago. As did another friend on her ex.
I agree with Winterglow's description of the boundary violations being off the scale.
Your SO has not done the work. He is not ready for another relationship. In fact he's likely got way too much baggage for any realtionship given how many wives he's already had. That would be enough of a red flag that I would head for the hills, but red flags for one person aren't red flags for another.
Anyway, your SO is not emotionally available to you. There is so much blurring of boundaries. He's still emotionally married to his ex. In fact, I would go so far as not even calling her his ex. With wife #3, are you sure you're not being set up to be in a polyamourous marriage? If not deliberate, but inadvertently? What happens if wife #3 asks your SO to get back together and to be in a poly relationship with you and your SO? Honestly, I think you're in a poly relationship already.
Nope
I do not think he ever will be really exclusive with you.
It sounds like you want a conventional relationship. I dont see it happening. You will have many heart breaks if you stay with this man.
Blessings hun
While you and he may have
While you and he may have passion in your relationship... there are a lot of red flags.. that have already caused you to break things off once!
It does sound like he is still in a relationship with her.. though it may not be intimate to the same level physically.. I think it is mentally. And.. I think he would be back with her quickly if she became available to him. That's hard to accept. You are with him because he does care about you.. but she matters "more" and not just because they share kids... his help for her goes way beyond that.
But... for ease of reading, I will numerate the flags you are seeing.
1. They prior brand of relationship is not totally typical and others have brought up some of the potential pitfalls for you.. does he want this for you as well? was it his need driving it? hers?
2. He is completely joined in her life.. that may have had some separation.. but only when he was pushed completely... I think you will find she will be in your life and at some point.. it won't be a nice or comfortable thing.. as nice as she may appear now.
3. Alcohol/addiction issues.. it sounds like she is semi regularly getting sauced to the point she needs help.. he will always go to her rescue.
4. The kid expects all this status quo.. and the status quo isn't normal for divorced people.. so will he resent you for making it change?
5. He isn't over her... he didn't want the relationship to end.
6. He is dragging his feet over her belongings.. just like he road blocked all the other things..
I think he wants a relationship with somebody.. he would prefer her.. but you are "ok" too... he is afraid of you two being too close because it could expose him in some ways that he might be uncomfortable.
I know you will likely not break up with him though.. but this will not be an easy relationship.. at least know that now.
and.. I kind of want to be
and.. I kind of want to be clear here.. re number 1. People have the type of relation that works for them.. for some people being in a poly relationship works... and among consenting adults.. all parties involved? That is not a "problem". What becomes a problem HERE is that it seems that kind of emotional Poly is still going on with OP's SO and DW#3.. and OP is kind of an "unwilling participant". It only works if all 3 have the same intent and in this case.. they don't.
And.. understanding whether it was HIS or his EX's idea to be in that kind of relationship is an indication of the kind of emotional and physical needs they may have... and gives you an idea whether your current one on one relationship will be sustainable with this guy( for reasons above. I don't think so.. but more in general). I mean.. did he go into this at his DW3's request.. and he would have been happy in a mono relationship? or was it HIS desire to be Poly and he talked her into it? or was it two like minded people?
I guess in my mind, someone who wants to be in a poly relationship has needs that for whatever reason just one partner can't meet. It could be S orientation.. it could be emotional needs.. and I guess other reasons.. LD could probably speak better to this.. because I don't have personal experience. .just thinking why someone would feel the need to be involved intimately with more than one person. But, someone that has wanted this in the past.. I wonder if it would be likely that they would NOT need or want it in the future.. could it just be situational?
But.. this guy is using the shared child as an excuse.. this goes way beyond the guy that fixes his exwife's car so she can transport their kid.
I could list the red flags or
I could list the red flags or detail the reasons why this relationship will likely bring you grief, but I think I'll just say that this doesn't seem to be the right relationship for you (not to mention that your boyfriend is in no way ready for a committed relationship with you), regardless of how well you get along or how much chemistry you have. I'd run for the hills.
As all others have said
You want something different out of this relationship than he does. He is still in a relationship with DW #3 (!!!).
Um, this guy doesn't know how to commit to a healthy long term relationship (in any form). This is probably not going to work out for you. Sorry to be blunt but some situations can be tweaked but this one seems to have little hope. It is time to consider leaving.
This can't be for real... no
This can't be for real... no sane person would hang around for this crap.
If ExWife #3 "IS the love of his life" then there is no room for you. You are a warm body because he can't fully have her, which is what he wants. Respect yourself more than this.
Cake and eat it too.
Not for me. But, that does not mean it isn't for others.
I would not be in a polyamorous relationship and would not tolerate my mate being polyamorous. The thought skeeves me out. Fortunately my DW and I are on the same page on this. Others doing it does not bother me at all. Consenting adults, open communication, and all. I/we are not willing to risk our marriage. But that is just us.
In the case you outline, you have to decide if you want more than two people in your significant other relationship. neither your SO nor his not yet X get to make that decision for you.
We have friends who have been intermittently polyamorous. Mostly swinging with other couples. They have not stepped out on each other or brought a 3rd in. At lease not up to the point we last spoke about it. Their swinging ended with the birth of their daughter. I'm not sure if they have started it back up now that she is away at college.
Sounds like you are in a
Sounds like you are in a polyamorous relationship with them, if I'm honest.
I've been in all kinds of relationships in my life and I'll tell you this, nothing about this is appropriate. Nothing.
Update
Thank you all so much for your honesty and perspective. It helped me realize that my concerns are valid. I sat down with myself and made a note of what things have changed since this relationship started and what things I need to see continue to change for me to continue on in it.
Things that have changed:
She hasn't called for a late night pickup or to spend the night for at least 6 months.
He has taken the wedding pictures down.
We have been introduced. I'm a big part of both his kids lives. Her family is pretty relaxed around me and seems accepting that we are together.
Since January she hasn't been hanging out here (at his house), nor have they been having dinner/lunch together. She seems to have her own life.
She and I work together. I subcontract to help her out in her business. I'm paid the same as any other subcontractor. She's not the best communicator but she's nice to me. Me helping her allows both of us to make extra money.
She and I have been picking up/ dropping off SS8 (on our own). It's drama free.
A week ago he had some outpatient surgery. I drove him to/from the hospital and have been caring for him. She hasn't been around other than to pick up SS8. He made a few phone calls to family before going under the knife. Their communication was merely an am text of "you got this".
He's stopped saying "Um..." (meaning "I have to see how she might feel about this") everytime I suggest we make plans to do something.
I did have a Come To Jesus meeting with him about her stuff. I explained to that I understood that he was still in a separating process and while I do have a lot of patience, that I also have expectations of changes and I laid them out for him.
He agreed about her stuff and promised to remove it. In the meantime he shoved all her stuff to the back corner of the closet and cleared out a closet space for me. He's still recovering from surgery and can't lift or bend over etc. I've noticed he's been putting some of her items in a bag for her each time to do a custody exchange and decluttering his space.
He told me that of course I am his partner and why would I think otherwise. He is continuing to separate financial stuff, credit cards, toll passes etc.
He's started to kiss me in front of her. This is something he's previously told me he wouldn't do out of respect for her feelings.
As for the poly relationship. I believe they went poly about 9 years ago in an attempt to save the marriage. She's told me he was the one who suggested it, that she wasn't accepting of it at first and then grew to appreciate it. She says it had postponed their breakup but also was ultimately the demise of their marriage. Neither she nor he is looking for a poly relationship now. She's out there online dating and says that it sucks. He's told me the same; that they went poly in an attempt to save the marriage. He really strikes me as a one-on-one deeply devoted kind of guy, who doesn't do well with change. He's not a flirt, nor does he have a roving eye or a slew of close female friends. Mostly he wants someone to "go through life with" and be at home and hold hands while watching tv.
The next few months will bring Mother's Day, Father's Day and both of their birthdays which are a few weeks apart. Normally they celebrate their birthdays together. I'm watching to see how this will go.
I really appreciate the support and perspective that all of you have given me. It has empowered me to speak up more.
Wife #3.... That may have been a good filter point in selecting
a mate.
Of course there are variables that come with anyone as a potential mate. However, the common denominator in your mate having had 3 wives prior to meeting you is... your mate.
The last I heard my XW was on DH#3. I was #1.
Too bad dating selection does not include reference calls to Xs to get the scoop on the candidate.
Poor boundaries
The only way this will work is if you have regular and extremely frank talks that lead to very clear boundaries - and that those boundaries are respected. Well done for what you have done so far, but I would ask: should this all be coming from you? Does he ever suggest ways to make the relationship more secure? Does he ever think about the situation in the depth you have to? Can he put himself in your place so as to understand how difficult it is for you?