You are here

Husband can’t cut the apron strings with 30 year old daughter

PerplexedPatty's picture

I would like some feedback on a situation that has come up. My 30 year old single step daughter is on a 6 month internship in Europe. She was home in June and will be back in December. She has several visitors coming to see her while she is away. (friends, mother, sister, etc.)  My husband wanted to go see her for a week and I don’t want to go. 

My step daughter doesn’t like me because she’s had her dad to herself for 13 years and is having a hard time sharing him. I have been kind, loving and giving to her for the past 3 years. She ignores my children and makes me feel like the 3rd wheel when I’’ve been out with her and her dad. 

 We just got married 5 months ago and she showed up at our wedding wearing a black dress and black lipstick. She didn’t smile in any of the family pictures and was rude to my family and guests. 

My step daughter relies on her dad for many things because she doesn’t have a significant other. I feel like there needs to be some boundaries set up. For example: don’t text  or call after midnight unless it’s an emergency. Dad needs to quit paying for car insurance and her cell phone bill, to name a few. 

I found out my husband was still planning on going on this trip without me and I don’t think he should go run of to Europe just after we got married and are trying to establish a life together. Moving boxes aren’t even unpacked. 

Thoughts?

sandye21's picture

"We just got married 5 months ago and she showed up at our wedding wearing a black dress and black lipstick. She didn't’t smile in any of the family pictures and was rude to my family and guests."

My SD did this too at our wedding.  Like it was a funeral.  And that was just the beginning.  It didn't get any better as time went on, in fact it got much worse.

Good for you for saying you do not want to visit SD.  The best thing I did was to totally disengage from SD.  Let DH go visit her but take yourself completely out of the equation.  Don't bring her up in conversation.  If DH does, change the subject. 

See, the problem isn't SD as much as it is DH who has not yet demonstrated to SD that your marriage is a priority.  My DH never had the courage to do this so there have been consequences.  He can visit with SD just about whenever he wants but she is not allowed in our home until she can respect me as DH's wife.  I put up with the B.S. for over 20 years.  Not anymore.

PerplexedPatty's picture

Good for you! Thank you for the reply. I’ve had it and I’m only in the marriage 5 months! They have a very unhealthy relationship and very secretive also. Whenever she calls he has to go in another room to talk. It’s really ridiculous! She has such a domineering personality. SD says jump and DH says how high!

sammigirl's picture

I have never had words with my SD57 and am completely disengaged after 30+ years of the same addiction between DH and SD, you are describing. 

They can have each other forever!  As soon as I developed this attitude, which just happened one morning when I woke up and had enough of the head games.  I really don't care any more!  I don't know where it came from, it just happened.  It has taken me almost 5 years to work through it all.  Don't expect it to happen over night or on one occasion. 

I have been at peace since my disengagement.  DH has decided to show interest in my life and what I am doing.  He doesn't even acknowledge his DD's texts 80% of the time.  SD has come to visit him (4 times a year maybe); DH doesn't offer her even a cold drink; of course I do not hostess her at all.

When I let it go and moved forward with my own interest, my SD57 showed her true colors to her father.  I didn't have to say a word, silence worked it all out for me.  I did tell DH to not include me when it come to association with SD.  I do not do holidays, family events, or socialize with SD in any way.  

I suggest you cut the strings with both of them and let them have at it.  Ignore them.  It is what it is and you cannot change it.  The more you attempt, the more they will bond. You create your own life and you will find DH is wondering what your life is all about without him.  My DH almost smothers me with his presence now and never mentions SD to me.  I don't ask either. 

That said, SD hates me more for disengagement.  SD has upped the games and will never stop.  I just stay away from her and have ask DH to tell SD to stay away from me.  I also told DH she will be escorted out of our home, if she shows one moment of disrespect to me ever again.  I am not threatening, I am promising this will happen and my DH knows it. 

I am doing well.  I have my days.  SD57 will never let it go after almost 39 years of our marriage.  DH loves me and my SD hates me.  I don't lose any sleep over my SD.

This site is great.  Stay here and vent.  ((((hugs))))

PerplexedPatty's picture

Thank you for sharing your story! You are a strong woman and your DH really respects you. I’m happy that you and your DH have a great relationship now!

sammigirl's picture

It`s not "great"; but it is what it is, thus I learned first to accept the facts and build a peaceful life around a family of narcissists.  You first have to wrap your mind around the facts of disfunction , and move forward in a direction that gives your life back to YOU.

You have to give it serious time, be very patient, do not be hard on yourself, and most of all spend time thinking things through, no matter how unpleasant you thoughts become.  ((((Hugs))))) 

peacemaker's picture

I applaud you for having the ability to hold your tongue for so long.  to rise above all the noise that tries so desperately to lure you into the conversation.   I have disengaged now for 7 years, and it took a LONG time for me to regain my sense of self afte a deluge of abuse coming from the ex wife and her offspring.  After the ex wife passed away, the step adults turned overt in their hatred, and their loyalty bond to their mother justified an increase of their relational agression, and the alienation rapidly was trasferred to the grandchildren.  I have began a new chapter in my life with my career that takes me around the country often and have moved past this step chapter in my life.  Everything was at peace having them getting on with their own lives, until recently.  My husband has decided to reach out to the most toxic one of the bunch OSD...who has been her mother's legacy to "make our lives a living hell" (her quote, not mine)...needless to say it has caused another round of strife in my marriage.  Sometimes I feel like I need to disengage with my own marriage to have any sort of peace in my life...I feel like my husband uses this strife to get the focus off from our issues to focus on them, a distraction, so he won't have to get real with himself, and deal with his personal baggage.  That seems to be the common factor in all of it.  I understand that we can't change another person and their ability or inablility to get real with their deal,  but at this point I am starting to feel like you sammi girl...talking doesn't seem to do any good.   

 

SacrificialLamb's picture

It doesn't matter how kind and loving you are to her. The fact is she had her dad to herself for years and doesn't want to share him. My OSD has been like this and she is married with children.

Your DH is likely to realize her feelings and not want to disappoint her. You mentioned several people who are going to visit SD. If your DH does not go when others are going, who will get the blame? YOU.  I know you are not happy with how she has been unwelcoming towards you, but is DH being gone a week really going to be that much of a problem?  I suspect in future years you will have greater problems with her if she marries  - weddings and weaponized grandchildren are big tests of the strength of your marriage in a blended family. 

If I were in your spot with all the fun I have dealt with in stephell, I would tell your DH you support him having an age appropriate relationship with his DD. But you feel SD is not happy about having to share him and you want to be on the same page with expectations. I'd have him read Stepmonster by Wednesday Martin for insight into how even adult stepchildren might be feeling, and there is a great section on fathers.  Ultimately DH needs to realize that he is now in a partnership, and he cannot downplay that partnership to make his DD feel better if he wants to stay married.

You definitely need to set boundaries and since you are newly married they may evolve as you go along.  You need to think about what is important to you. I think for the duration of a marraige, him going to visit his DD for a week is going to be less important than what other things will be.

Survivingstephell's picture

He had 3 years to make it clear to his "girlfriend" aka SD30 that he got married and she is just his daughter.  It really doesn't bode well for your marriage for him to take off so soon  to run to her.  

I wouldn't let this crap fly if this happened to me.  Nobody I'm married to goes to Europe without me. Can you go and he has lunch with her and you get a honeymoon out of it?  

PerplexedPatty's picture

Thank you for seeing my point! I am completely shocked that this is even an issue. We are newlyweds and you’re taking off to Europe to wine and dine your 30 year old daughter for a week???

I should have known this was going to be a problem when we were dancing our first dance at our wedding and he left me in the middle of the dance floor to get OSD and dance with her. 

SteppedOut's picture

How embarassing... I would have been PISSED

beastofburden's picture

This same thing happened to another SM on here.... husband took off to chase his daughters at his own wedding.... then left her sitting alone at he breakfast table the next morning... 

I would have had the wedding annulled. 

PerplexedPatty's picture

That is so sad...husband took off to chase his daughters at his own wedding! 

I forgot to mention not only did I get left on the dance floor on our wedding night in the middle of our first song but at the end of the reception my husband informed me that he was going to drive his daughters to their mother’s home because he didn’t want them to drive in case they had drank too much....THEY COULDN”T TAKE UBER???? They’re adults and take Uber all the time! Absolutely ridiculous! It certainly set the tone for the rest of the wedding night at the hotel! 

Exjuliemccoy's picture

It 's do or die time. Your H had no business marrying you if he planned to keep dating another woman, and you shouldn't have agreed to marry him until demonstrated that he was ready and able to put his relationship with you first.

You're newlyweds, so this is the zenith of your relationship, the happy halcyon period. How sad the man you've chosen is so willing to leave you behind for a trip to Europe to visit his adult daughter.

You have very different ideas of what your partnership should be. I hope you give your H clarity that if he leaves you behind, he won't have a marriage to return to.

twoviewpoints's picture

I'm going to suggest this father/daughter neediness was going on during the last three years you've been with your now husband. That somehow , you believed, that once married things would change and the priority would become you. 

That he's been silently telling you all along exactly how things would be, only you didn't want to 'hear' the signals, or that once the ring and 'I do' were done magically your DH would naturally devote all his time to you. And if not, you could pull the 'I am the wife' card and he'd back down .

You'd be surprised how many women go into a second marriage for a man believing these same things. That somehow, everything that was 'wrong' in the relationship (the connecting relationships that do affect you and you as a couple) would just cease to be any longer. After all, he's married now and he has a wife. You mentioned you should have known it was going to be a problem when he left you on the wedding dance floor to dance with his daughter. ... I fail to believe this was the first sign between father and daughter that daughter would be an issue and perhaps be more of a priority than the 2bwife would. 

And now the guy is clueless in understanding why any of this is a problem for you. Sure, he knows you've been grumbling (he leaves the room when he takes Sd's calls) , but he doesn't really care (he went right on ahead planning his solo trip to Europe). This is what you have to look forward to in your new marriage. And no amount of pouting, screaming, stomping your foot nor threatening to leave him is going to change it. In fact, all any of that will get you is him suddenly thinking you've changed and became a controlling needy woman and not the accommodating sweet woman he thought he married. 

Yes, he will turn this around on you. 

Drag his *ss to marriage counseling. Let a neutral third party inform him just how unhealthy his relationship with his adult daughter is when he just committed to a wife and marriage. 

PerplexedPatty's picture

Thank you for your words of wisdom. I completely agree that counseling by a neutral 3rd party is the only answer in my situation.

tog redux's picture

I'd agree with twoviewpoints.  At this point, you have to sit him down and say that you really thought things would change when you were married and that they need to change for this marriage to be successful.  Don't let this go on for years. He has to decide whether he wants a healthy second marriage or to continue the unhealthy dynamic with his daughter.  He doesn't see it as unhealthy, he thinks he's a great dad with a close relationship with his daughter.  He's most likely flattered, on some deep and unhealthy plane, that his daughter is competing with you for his attention.  This won't get better without you forcing the issue and it might not get better then.  But at least you haven't wasted years of your life dealing with it.

MissTexas's picture

It never ceases to amaze me how these men allow their daughter’s to crack the “Pu**y Control” whip. Story after story unfolds, but the antagonist in all of them is the SD. Like you, we want what makes DH happy, so we contort ourselves trying to please him, and in the process we suffer and hurt.

There is no quick fix, unfortunately.Would DH be receptive to counseling? This may be a good start, so that it’s not you telling him what he needs to do where SD is concerned. It falls better on the ear if  a professional tells them about creating boundaries.

I’m shocked (and then again I’m not) this is happening so soon into your marriage, but as another poster pointed out, the signs had to have been there prior to now. We want to believe once we are married behaviors will change, but change doesn’t come without effort or desire. 

Sadly you mentioned  the private phone calls we are all too familiar with. It feels very much like s mistress situation, only with a mistress you have hope the affair will end. These affairs these DH’s have with the SD’s have been ongoing for years, decades in many cases. It’s very hard to change decades long behaviors, but if BOTH SPOUSES WANT IT IT CAN BE DONE. Do not lose the faith . Have hope. Fight for your marriage and be an advocate for change! Hopefully the SD will find a man and leave yours alone!

Healyourslf's picture

I feel you. Do not keep your observations, intuitions and pent up emotion inside because it will eat at your soul. Yes...it feels like DH has mistress and you are the 3rd wheel.  That is not acceptable in a healthy marriage.  Love yourself enough to speak out and do not let "them" treat you that way.  Your DH needs to become familiar with the term emotional enmeshment and how dysfunctional it is.  

Looks like Daughter Jekyll came to the surface at your wedding. (They are just so creative with their dark little ploys).  They are forever in arrested development and do not want their father to put anyone else before them.  And, they will continue to create divide until DH puts a stop to it with CLEAR BOUNDARIES.  Unfortunately, many of these emotionally enmeshed SDs are unable to have healthy relationships of their own or are completely relationship avoidant.  30 years old? She needs to get a life of her own and DH needs to stop enabling her. 

This web of dysfunction will not come down easy. It's sticky as hell, prone to clinging and the spider is venomous. I agree with having a 3rd party help DH see the mess he is making.  DH and YOU need to be the "priority." That is the "key" to your relationship surviving.   There are a number of great responses on here from those who have experienced the confusion and choas of unrelenting SD's who need to "control daddy." 

marblefawn's picture

Patty, you are at the beginning of a long road. You must become conniving and shrewd.

I was in the same boat. Took SD's beratings and manipulation for a decade of marriage. My husband STILL won't take or make a call to her in my presence. She insisted on seeing him ALONE on our third anniversary and he went. He left me alone to euthanize my dog because they had lunch plans. I'd send her a gift and never hear back from her. On our honeymoon, he left me standing in a museum for 40 minutes while he took a call from SD about her mom being sued. My husband could never see it.

About two years ago, I stopped seeing SD, I told my husband not to mention her name, and he'd have to see her outside our house. It's been better. But even now, he still manages to handle things so wrong that we occasionally fight about SD.

Don't assume any of her circumstances will make it better. When we married, SD wasn't married. Now she is. She was in her teens when we dated. Now she's 31. Age and marital statue don't make a difference. When my SD married, she treated me so well! I wrote all her invitations, assembled the flowers and centerpieces, etc., while her parents did nothing but pose for family pictures (without me, of course). Didn't matter -- within six months, she was back to sending cards to our house addressed only to him, literally acting as if I don't exist.

Here are some tips:

Go to counseling. If he won't go, go alone. You need someone to back you up to help maintain your confidence in yourself.

Don't let others tell you "but she's his DAUGHTER!!!" When you feel in your gut that you're getting the shaft, you likely are. If any of your friends or family give you that line, don't discuss it with them anymore.

If SD ever attacks you, don't stay silent. Don't get in the gutter with her, but stand your ground without name calling or swearing. Be really calm but firm and make her look like the idiot she is. I still regret all the times I let her scream at me and I felt I had to "be the adult." I have never said a bad word to SD, and I sure as hell wish I had now. It might have checked her and prevented some of this shit now.

By eliminating exposure to your SD, you eliminate many fights with your husband. So consider full on disengagement. I know it might seem like too big a step at this early juncture of your marriage, but don't wait 15 years like I did. A host of resentment builds in you toward your husband when you wait that long. Your sex life will be zero because you constantly feel betrayed by him. So consider disengaging earlier than later.

As for this immediate situation...well, it's tricky. If you remind him that you aren't even unpacked yet, he will tell you, "But it's only a week." I've found it's better to give in and use it as a negotiation tool than fight it altogether. For example, when the inevitable came and my husband wanted to pay for SD's entire wedding, I knew I would not win that battle. So I said, "Fine, pay for it IF you agree that the gravy train stops running the day she marries. No more free plane tickets, no more free insurance, no more paid trips for SD." My husband agreed. And while it cost us thousands of dollars, to my knowledge, he has not given her any more handouts. (She has her meal ticket now in the form of her own husband.)

Consider letting him go to Europe now because there will be times when you really can't handle things yourself and he will be itching to abandon you for SD. Those will be the days when you must say no and die on the hill for it.

You must get clever and forecast her interference. It gets easier once you see patterns in their relationship. For example, she will come into play every holiday and birthday. So in June, long before SD starts tugging at him about the holidays, you say, "Hey, honey, how about I book us a cruise over Christmas???" He'll go for it because who wouldn't, right? You book it. BOOM! You just pissed all over your territory for the holidays and there's not a damn thing SD can do about it.

The good thing for you is that you're at the beginning of your marriage. You are setting precedents this year and next for how things will be done. Plan his birthday getaway long before it happens. Plan the holidays getaways months ahead. It shows your expectation is that you can plan a weekend away for his birthday without even considering what SD will be doing. It's your time. Take it with a vengence. She will take your time if you don't.

It's crucial to reduce fighting about SD, because the more you and he fight about SD, the better she looks. It chips away at your marriage. You and he may fight like hell about this trip to Europe, he'll go anyway and it will be a relief for him to be away from your harping to be around his calm, sweet little girl who loves him unconditionally, having a great romantic time in old world Europe! Always remember that they are enmeshed, that's a relationship you can't compete with because you will never be enmeshed with him that way. So you must be more clever and use what you have that she doesn't to put your marriage front and center. You are with him 24/7, so make every day as good as possible with him. You also have the sex card that she doesn't. Use it.

Do not let them become the parents and you become the child. Do not let them cook up plans between them and tell you what they are as if you're a child who has no say. This is hard to stop, especially with their secret calls. You can fight about it, but more effective is filling your life with fun! The more great events you have planned, the more often you can say, "Oh, that's the same weekend of our skydiving lessons. Can you see SD some other weekend?"

In closing, I didn't realize I'd have to become so shifty and manipulative within my marriage because of another woman. And she is "the other woman" in your marriage. Counseling did help us with some things, but it was especially helpful to hear that I wasn't a jealous, child-hating, evil stepmother. He was wrong. But a counselor telling him that will only get you so far.

I really wish you luck. If you have the money, buy yourself some comfort while he's in Europe. But don't let him go without using the occasion to negotiate something that sets a precedent that excludes her -- you go to Europe to see her now, we go at Christmas ALONE. You'll get the hang of it.

 

 

 

tog redux's picture

May I ask, why did you put up with all of that? I can't imagine living for so long with someone who just fundamentally didn't care what my needs were.

marblefawn's picture

Divorce isn't quick or easy. What was I gonna do? Pack up after a few blowups?

It took me a long time to realize there was nothing I could do to improve the relationship with SD because SD does this "seduce and reject dance," where she would be OK to me on one visit, then turn around and bite me in the ass. Sometimes I put the blame on myself because deep down I never liked her -- she's just not my type of person -- so I'd think maybe it was something I said.

Until her pattern became clear to me, I'd think I was nuts. My husband would say, "But you got along last time" as if he was asking why I didn't like her instead of asking her why she was fine one visit and biting the next.

But see, that was the manipuation: when I'd tell my husband, "hey, your kid was out of line to me," he'd say, "but you got along with her the last time," (as if I was the one changing MY tune) or "but she was a bridesmaid in our wedding, so of course she likes you..." She was pretty much always a bitch to me, but occasionally she was just nice enough to keep him fooled...so he could always have that, "but..." to throw at me.

You know men don't see those subtle slights and snubs that women harness to send our messages to one another -- those mean girl tactics. My husband has NO guile at all, he grew up with only brothers, so I don't think he was even aware of how cagey women are in their aggressions. If she had punched me, he would have understood. But when she said she "forgot" to put my name on a greeting card after we'd been married 9 years, he believed that -- he wanted to believe it, and I think he did.

I soon figured out it doesn't matter if he sees it or not. I knew what she was up to, so I disengaged. And I worked to reduce opportunities for her to interfere with our marriage, as I outlined in my post.

PerplexedPatty's picture

All of you who have taken the time to share your stories and give me advice, I am truly greatful! THANK YOU! This StepTalk website is wonderful! It’s nice to know that I have a place to share my thoughts and frustrations with people who understand and can relate. 

I had no idea what I was getting into when I met my DH. He told me that he was close to his children and I thought  “wow what a great guy.”  My former husband pretty much abandoned my children so I was excited to date a man that cared about his kids. I figured DH would be a great example of what a father should be. Little did I know how dysfunctional his relationship with his oldest daughter was. 

Now that I look back on things the signs were there when she lived in town. Three months after we started dating I think OSD realized her dad and I were in love. She ended up quitting her full time job before finding another one and needed to move into dad’s house while she looked for a job. It took her 9 months to finally find something. She was around constantly and had to have special times with dad every week (dinner, biking, art museums, paddle boarding, etc). I of course wanted to get to know OSD and wanted her to like me and make sure she knew I wasn’t going to take her dad away so I went along with it.  I figured it was just a faze because she had all kinds of time on her hands. I was definitely wrong. 

I completely agree with those of you that mentioned trying marriage counseling. I have talked ito DH many times about it and he said his last marriage failed after going. If one or both parties are unwilling to put forth an effort to save the marriage and take the advice of a 3rd party then I guess it won’t work. 

still learning's picture

ss33 is the female version of your sd30.  When we married 6ish years ago ss all of a sudden became homeless, jobless and had to move in with dad.  I was notified that he would be staying with us until he got on his feet. SS never looked for a job, smoked pot and gamed all night, slept in the living room all day. He ate all the food, bossed me around and treated DH like an ATM.  DHwas fine with this arrangement, me not so much. Like the above poster said, I became *a child* with DH treating ss and I the same. Actually ss was treated much better and given more money and authority in our home.  

Months went by and I got fed up with what our relationship had become. DH had a decison to make, he could live w/me or his son. It almost ended our marriage, I was ready to walk.  He chose us and dropped a screaming ss off at his sisters house, yay for her!  

Things have gotten better, there are still issues but DH knows I will never go back to the way it was when we were first married. 

sandye21's picture

After you dropped screaming SS off at his Sister's house?

still learning's picture

DH's sister is one of those that takes in stray humans so ss has lived with her on and off before.  She took him in and it lasted for a few weeks until it became apparent that he wasn't going to pay her rent or help out.  Her son ended up running him off and ss ended up back at BM's house where he's still at today, only now he's also moved in his barely legal gf.  

sandye21's picture

What a waste of human flesh!  I hope you never allow him to mooch of you again!

Merry's picture

I'm so sorry you're part of this club. I agree with the others that you must address his behavior sooner rather than later, and seeing a counselor to help sort out what is a normal father/daughter relationship. It will not be easy.

My SD did some things similar to yours. But my issues was always with DH. She'd call, he'd jump. Including the time I got a call from the doc with a cancer scare. There I was in the kitchen worried and crying and telling him what the doc said, SD calls, he takes the call and I hear him laughing and joking with her from the other room. While I am still in the kitchen crying. Pleasing her was more important than comforting his frightened wife. (Turned out not to be cancer, and I'm fine. Whew.)

He would play the Walk Down Memory Lane game with her, essentially excluding me from any of the conversation. When I tried to join in, I was shut down. One time this went on for TWO HOURS and I was stupid enough to sit there silently, invisible. When we finally left SD's, I had a total meltdown. The memory lane game has never happened again.

But it's like I have to explain every infraction and DH needs a playbook for every situation. In DH's head, if I am upset he won't laugh and carry on with SD. The memory lane game is out of bounds. Don't call/text with SD or SS when we are on a date. Etc. Ok, but he's missing the big picture here -- treat me like your cherished wife at all times, not your side chick that you can ditch when you get a better offer.

What if you DO go to Europe with him, on the condition that you stay in a hotel AND you take a few days to explore on your own, without SD? I can see the appeal of a trip to Europe, especially if your DH has never been in the area where SD is staying.  It would be good for him to demonstrate to SD that YOU are his priority.

notasm3's picture

I have recently announced to my husband that the gloves are off. If SD ever utters so much as a sniff my way, I will let loose in a way he has never seen, "So you had better keep your kid in check from here on out because you do not want to see me let loose on her."

I think this is part of the reason that I've not had so much as a peep out of DH about seeing SS34.   I did not utter the threat - I didn't have to.  DH has seen me be in action a couple of times.  And SS is such a mess that my ammunition armory is bursting at the seams.

DoberGirl's picture

These posts are so affirming that my decision to completely disengage from SD is the right thing. Sure, BF will have to divide his time between us. Perhaps he'll acknowledge the division she causes. Sure, I might have to attend family holiday gatherings without him because he's spending the holiday with his side. It's not my preference, but I'm OK with it. Sure, they have an unbreakable bond (as they should). But as others have said, I hold the sex card. He'll always eventually return to me for a true adult relationship. Bottom line is, I'm 50 years old and I do independent very well. I've never been afraid to be alone. I actually like myself and have a full life outside of him. I've adopted the attitude that if he wants to be part of my life, he'll do what he needs to do to engage with me as a partner. If SD wants to be part of 'our' life, she'll soul search to figure out why my presence is such a trigger for her and make a commitment to treat me with basic human respect. I'm not asking for or expecting anything more. This doesn't mean I'm perfect and don't have anything to work on. I do - and I actively am. Whether they do or not is up to them. I'm going to be happy regardless.

Disengage my new virtual friends. It's a powerful thing.