Another Interesting Joint Counseling Session
I don't allow H to bring up his current Twit problems with me. In counseling yesterday he talked about the following: how Twit still has not called him with her NEW number (to which I was silently and sincerely thanking God) and how worried he is about Drunkie.
I just let him talk as the counselor was there to moderate and kept him from hogging the session.
He is upset about Drunkie being in jail - he guesses he is still there as he hasn't heard otherwise. After listening to him beating himself about the predicament I could not help but cut in and tell him that it was TWIT's problem, SHE is the cause for the effect.
The counselor asked me why I felt so strongly about that and I explained to her, looking directly at H, that SHE could and should have done something when Drunkie got his first DUI. Instead she made excuses about why she couldn't get him to AA meetings (too busy), same thing with excuses for Al-Anon for her even when H offered to help. The bogus counselor she sent him to, the excuses she made for his continuing drinking all the while bragging how SHE controlled just how much he could drink. How they tried to cover up about his black outs from booze, and her general enablement of him.
After hearing allthat counselor asked H if that was correct and he affirmed. How, she said can he blame himself for anything when the person closes to the Drunkie enables him. She pointed out that the claim of her controling the Drunkies drinking was totally unbelievable because you just can't do that with an alcoholic.
As for the phone number, counselor told him, again that is HER choice and he had nothing to do with it. That her calling, crying to him and asking for $$ was pretty brazen of her.
She understands it is hard, as Twit is his daughter, but he needs to realize it is NOT HIS FAULT. He is carrying guilt that is not his. Twit has problems that have been there a long time and everyone, including H kept dancing around them like they were normal.
We covered other ground not related to the T and called it a session. I took a few minutes, privately, to talk to the counselor. She said to hold on, she feels that once this gets behind him, he accepts and deals with it all will be better. In fact, she said the fact that T changed her phone number etc. and is not calling H is one of the best things that happened to him. I agreed.
Oh, this working on things is so hard.
My high is that the T has not
My high is that the T has not contacted him and she won't dare contact me after the letter my Lawyer sent to her. I pray that it will last. Though my guess is that this is part of her guilt on Dad mode and figures that the longer she holds out the more H will be just so glad to hear from her he will get back in line again. Some how I think not.
The games is on her. The
The games is on her. The longer she disengages which in her twitsted mind is punnishing her father the longer he has to work through the historical issues, work the therapy plan, gain clarity that his enabling of the Twitster is no less problematic than Twitsters enabling of the Drunkie and figure it all out.
Your are playing this exactly right SDM...A masterful strategy to put the final nails in Twits coffin of toxic manipulation of her father and vitriolic attacks on you.
Stay the course.
Good luck and take care of you.
I agree
Rags said it all. Twit's misjudged this time. The longer she punishes DH, the more of an opportunity he has to, as Rag puts it, gain clarity. Keep hanging in there SDM. (((HUGS)))
Thanks for the support Sandye
Thanks for the support Sandye, but it is hard. When he first brought her up I cringed....oh no, not again.
Thanks Rags - I agree
Thanks Rags - I agree although other than stopping him from bringing her up to me the rest seemed to just fall into place at counseling. Note that I got my say in about how T doesn't actually want help with Drunkie, she just wants attention and sympathy always being the victim.
As for the phone numbers - best thing that ever happened IMHO.
After that session we went out for lunch and a movie. It was quite nice as the boundary is set.
Twit is a grown adult who has
Twit is a grown adult who has made her own choices. Does she have some mental issues? Sure, but she has to be the one to get help for that, it is not on your H.
Her son is, well, HER son, so your H has no reason to feel guilty when it comes to him, either. I understand being worried but there is nothing he can do about his grandson's alcohol problem. That is on him (the grandson), and Twit for enabling him.
The longer your H goes without contact with his daughter, the more he will realize how pleasant life is without her drama. Unless, of course, he thrives on that drama. If that's the case, he needs to decide if he loves the drama or he loves you. He can't have both.
Agree with the above comments
Agree with the above comments. My OSD, who is cut from the same cloth as Twit, tried the same type of punishment on DH when he did not bend to whatever the heck she wanted at the moment. The longer it went on the more DH thought it was wrong. But now that punishment has ended, he is back to being his DD's good graces but knows enough most of the time to keep me out of it.
Your DH is too old and too far removed to be feeling guilty for this. His job was to raise his kids, not his grandkids.
I'd just like to add a gentle
I'd just like to add a gentle correction: Twit doesnt have "problems", and using that polite euphemism only clouds the issue. Twit is DISORDERED, and toxic to your marriage. Saying she has problems implies that one should have empathy and understanding for her, and you really want to avoid that trap. Call a spade a spade, and refer to her as disordered. Her issues require specialized professional help far beyond her father's ken.
Julie- totally agree about
Julie- totally agree about her being disordered. I do not think there is any type of help out there for her. Even if there was she wouldn't want it because she thinks nothing is wrong with her. She, and her family, are PERFECT! And she will tell you that.
Just think, one baby got married and lives some 60 miles away which tees her off because, as she says, she needs to have him close at hand. And the other one is in or going to jail. That leaves her with FATSO.
Her family cabell is falling apart. That is going to drive her nutz - okay she can't be any more nutz, but you know what a mean, to a new level of craziness. I do hope H gets to peace and guiltlessness from her before she gets her awakening.
You found a good counselor
Keep going to that counselor to reinforce to your DH that he has some control of his life. That the kids are nuts and there nothing he can do about it. But do not get sucked up in there drama
Just want to add
Just want to add tisoneincident that we covered that session because it really was the start of H defending mean things his daughter did and putting me down. As long as he was talking about her I brought up the Christmas ashtray gift. Told the counselor how beautifully the packaged was wrapped - like roessionally. Open it to find a cheap, used ashtray in it! I was shocked by this and said something about "oh, it's an ashtray and my not smoking". Immediately she started in that It was the THOUGHT that counted, crying to Daddy (of course he got the greasy used grill set with her telling him that When he LEARNED how to use it she would get (aka sell) him a $100 set from her pot and pan co.!
After they left H took me to task and told me I looked small for what I said. Umm, all I said it it was an ashtray and I didn't smoke. H really chewed me out about it later because T felt bad....she cried. Folks, these "gifts" were no mistake, they were both garbage, things she got and couldn't sell at her many garage sales.
What I had given her was a vintage 14kt famiy cameo pin (I also gave my daughter one) becaue I anted to treat them alike.
T knew what she did and it was intentional because she doesn't spend a dime on people other than herself and her "babies"
I had told counselor about this before, but with H there she asked him what he thought of it....the carpy ashtray. Did he think that was an appropriate "thought that counts" type gift? Did I deserve something like that?
Boy did he fumble and bumble around that one until he finally said no.
THIS was the first time that H ever admitted that what T did to me that Christmas was wrong and I did nothing wrong. the only reason T got upset is that I didn't gush over her "generosity" and said what it was, no how nice (how could I say something like that) It felt good to see him have to face what happened to me that Christmas and how he got all upset with me, calling me small, for not gushing all over the piece of carp.
The fact the T started defending her self, according to the counselor, with the "thought that counts" carp indicated that she knew what she was doing, it wasn't an accident. After all, wasn't I worth more than a cheap ashtray? It was soooo good to see H actually turn color and sputter as he had to acknowledge that.
No accident
"The fact the T started defending her self, according to the counselor, with the "thought that counts" carp indicated that she knew what she was doing, it wasn't an accident." Of course she did and it was mean spirited. When you received the ashtray from T DH was still in the game with her - the one where he excused bad behavior and justified it to perpetuate the sick relationship he had with his daughter and attempt to make it look 'normal'. It was just easier for him to attack you than confront T and endure her wrath. After he confronted you what happened? I'll bet you were upset for a while but in a short time life for the two of you proceeded as usual. If he had confronted T her reaction would have been much more dramatic and hostile. He took the easy road.
He was playing Mr. Nice guy by sacrificing your dignity. You are exposing him and T to a person who is based in reality. It must be very uncomfortable for him but in my opinion he needs to have to squirm a bit and take responsibility for trying to mislead you into thinking it was you. This is probably the hardest part of the counselling but the truth will set DH free. You are really making progress now. (((HUGS)))
Boy Sandye, did you hit the
Boy Sandye, did you hit the nail lright on that. Oh, T cried to Daddy for weeks after that about how she didn't know what to get me, it was the THOUGHT that counts. I was really hurt and confused. But things went down hill with Twit real quick after that when she found that Daddy was behind her.
Also note, as the counselor did, that T gave H that garbage grill set and H accepted it like it was normal! She said that kind of thing is fine with children, but adults like T know better.
I was glad to get that out in front of someone who would ask H why he thought something like that was okay.....and to watch him squirm as there is no justification for that kind of behavior.
The "thought"
It really gets to me - the expression, "It's the thought that counts." If T would have 'thought' at all about the ashtray she was giving to you she would have thought, "Does she smoke or not?" No, there was no 'thought process' going on at all. It makes you wonder what happened - if anything - to make her want to give you something she knew you wouldn't be able to use.
Twit only thinks about
Twit only thinks about herself. She didn't want to spend any money on any one other than herself, her H and her babes, PERIOD.
Now, if the shoe had been on the other foot and I gave T an old dirty ashtray you can bet your bottom dollar I would have heard about it from H. and Twit as well as she would have cried.
Sandye, as I have talked on the board here before, Twit has this interesting way of finding people, old people, who are alone and trying to get things from them. I have seen that behavior twice now, and I know she had us in mind, which is why she wanted us to move so she could help us out in our old age. Right (not). The only thing true there is she wanted us to be closer so SHE could help herself when we passed.
Sandye - Nothing happened -
Sandye - Nothing happened - this was the first Christmas we were down there. In Twitvill, since she doesn't want to spend a dime on any one she just looked through her garbage for something to wrap. Every one is suppose to gush about how nice just to feed her ego.
I know she got the wind knocked out of her when I didn't go along with the routine. I saw it as an insult, and rightly so. Same with the dirty used napkins. Heck, at least she could have cleaned them but that would have required effort on her part.
Or like when we first got down here and went over there, invited, she got her undies in a bundle becaues we usesd the back door. We MUST, she insisted, always use the front door (this even though when we came down to visit before we moved there we always used the back door). Okay, we obliged only to be asked later what was wrong with us that we always came to the front door? Ya can't win with that one....it is all about control and making you jump through hoops. I don't jump through hoops to appeas her ego.
I mean what kind of person invites you to Thanksgiving dinner and then announces that before the mean is done she has to leave so she can go SHOPPING! Never mentioned a word about it until we sat down. You should have seen the look of surprise and knowing she had gone too far when I got up to leave but H pulled me back down.
Afater she left, and dessert hadn't even been gotten to, I said to both H and Twit's hubby that was pretty darn insulting and inappropriate. Twit's hubby responded nonchalantly, Oh, that's Twit.??? She has no respect or cring for others, just saving a buck on what she wants. She will cheat anyone to get it too.
It has to make you feel so
It has to make you feel so good to finally be validated. It took awhile for my DH to admit his ODD was not perfect and had done things to hurt me. She completely lost it when he finally addressed it with her; she was not used to being challenged or told she was not perfect.
And I don't get why these types of Dads have such a hard time admitting they didn't father a perfect specimen....I have two bios and have no problem admitting their issues as well as my own. These guys can't stand to take a hit on their fragile egos. I guess that is my answer!
It really sounds like things are progressing in the right direction for you and that is awesome. Don't be surprised if it's a two-steps-forward-one-step-back approach. When my DH and I put this behind us, he thought I would be amenable to re-engaging because I was no longer mad and yelling. So the lesson here is keep yelling. Lol
What really feels good is to
What really feels good is to be validated in front of H where he can't go after me and tell me I am seeing things wrong, or like he did once...only once....tell me I have low self-esteem. Boy, did I let in on him about that. He never, ever said anything like that to me again.
What I like is that we don't
What I like is that we don't live together. He can get as upset as he wants during a counseling session BUT he either treats me well and we can do something together or I go home without him. He has to face it, what she is and what she does and face the fact that it is NOT normal.
It's healthy to not live together when you disengage...
I have been trying to talk my husband into living in separate homes. Since I want zero contact with ss22, it would give my husband the option of having ss22 over when he wants. At this point, he could only schedule that when he knows I will not be in the house...since ss22 can't give more than 30 minutes notice when he wants to come over, ss hasn't been to our house in over 5 months. I'm fine with that, but my husband is upset. Oh well. Not.my.problem.but.it.really.is.
Yep - next session topic,
Yep - next session topic, from me is that wedding fiasco. Honestly, what was done to him, and me, was just flat out cruel and they think it was just fine. No clue or admition that wht was done hurt people. It is all about THEM, the ME, ME, ME crowd.
Can't wait. This is MY TURN to get this stuff off my chest to H in a setting that he has to really face what is going on.
The Wedding
Just a suggestion SDM. The situation with the wedding seemed to occur in a succession of mini-events. For example, someone slipped up and you found out there was going to be a wedding. Then further on down the line, you indirectly found out you weren't invited. Then you found out you were expected to give them a gift. And underlying all of this was an atmosphere of confusion orchestrated by Twit - with a lot of drama thrown in - to put you off guard.
One time I filed in small claims court for a landlord who would not refund my deposit. A lawyer friend suggested I list everything in chronological order so nothing was missed, and the judge could follow easier. Knowing you, you probably are already doing this.
Idon't think I ever will
Idon't think I ever will forget or forgive that wedding fiasco. That was intentional as there was always talk by T to H about the wedding, they were going to set the date, it was going to be a family affair, etc. then the carp started.
We did send an average card - no money - no gift. Imagine my surprise when in December we get a Christmas Greeting postcard from them with a big picture of the bride and groom in wedding attire on the front! Always wondered if that was a - in case we forgot to send them the check type of nudge because we have absolutely nothing to do with them.
Needless to say, those cretins were not on my Christmas Greeting list and never will be. Family weddings are Big occasions and the nonsense that was pulled was way out of line. Good by to bad rubish I say.
Glad You Got Some Much Needed Validaton!
It's about time.
SD (closer to 50 than 40) had a horribly explosive meltdown that seemed to have no ending. It was entirely unprovoked. DH did NOTHING.
When we told our counselor all this, she looked at DH and asked, 'How old is SD? SHe sounds about 16." I told her, "Almost 50! And she's a medical ealthcare advocate! It's looking like elderly abuse to me, as she calls and calls and tells him what to do, and he does it without hesitation." The counselor agreed, and told DH, "You have to rid yourself of this toxicity in your marriage. She is not right with the world, and she's a threat, physically and mentally." She also told me I'm well within my rights to call the law should she show up here again. It's been great not seeing her nasty face for the last few months. I just pray it continues. DH has been hurt, but does see the abuse that has unfolded and is baffled.
Counselor wants to see each of us separately. There is far more to the story. Legal betrayal, collusion with SD behind my back and so forth.
Point is, validation is great, as we finally have DH see and be told by a professional who and what the problem really is!!!
All best to you
SDM, I don't post here much, only in response to certain stressors and triggers, but even to an occasional visitor your journey has been remarkable and your posts always stand out.
Congratulations on coming to this difficult decision. Wishing you peace.