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Stories of PAS?

Anon9876's picture

I would like to hear your stories of PAS.

I recently came upon this term on this site and have done a little research on the subject.

It fits my SD's BM exactly.

Just curious as to anyone else having dealt with this and how you approached it.

runforthehills's picture

When I was pregnant with our daughter, I was told by a family friend that BM was filling SD's head with a lot of negative thoughts, and it really showed as she treated her father and I like dirt throughout the entire pregnancy. When I got pregnant again with our son , BM spread lies about me to SD to try and make me look bad , she would also call up DH and launch into tirades about how SD "feels forgotten ", trying to make him feel guilty, and this is coming from a woman who is the definition of a deadbeat mother. 

Ive also noticed the past few months since our son has been born, SD hardly ever calls or texts DH anymore or comes home, but she'll go spend time at BM's now which she NEVER used to , at all. She would barely step foot in her home. I could just be over thinking the situation, but I feel as though BM has been up to her old tricks again and put thoughts into SDs head , which is why she's keeping her distance and doesn't want to talk to her dad. If she doesn't want to talk to me that's fine, but no reason to take it out on her father who does so much for her. Her mother has hardly done a darn thing for her. 

Anon9876's picture

Do you think BM is jealous that her ex is having children with another woman?

What stories has she been telling your SD that you know of?

Unfortunately that's how it works. It makes so sense to me that the parent spreading lies and malicious thoughts is somehow the one that gets to have a relationship with the child.

Rags's picture

Why do you care what BM is thinking or feeling?  I wouldn't give a shit and would take the stand that she either behaves reasonably or you rub her nose firmly in the stinky spot on her behavioral carpet until it permiates her brain.

Good luck.

runforthehills's picture

Yes , absolutely it was out of jealousy. She would regularly do things to try and cause problems between DH and I. When our daughter was born , our family friend told us that BM isn't very happy with her life right now, so she could have told us that this was going to happen . She doesn't appear to have the greatest relationship with her boyfriend, he kicks her out a lot , she's seeing her ex moving on in life , getting married and having a new family, while she's stuck in limbo getting drunk and kicked out every weekend. 

She would probably do backflips and jumping jacks if her attempts to cause problems between DH and I worked and we divorced. 

Sne wants to come out looking like the "good parent", but in the end , no one wins and only disservices their daughter. 

 

Anon9876's picture

That's right, the person guilty of PAS is only thinking about themselves.

It's fairly obvious that she sees the 2 of you happy when she is not and she wants to find a way to get back at her ex. I guess it's a slight to her that he has a life without her and is doing better for it.

It's a shame that she's using her daughter to play against him just to upset him. Pure selfishness.

I've yet to understand why someone thinks there is anything to gain by alienating the other parent

 It only hurts the child.

runforthehills's picture

And that's the thing because her attempts to cause problems between DH and I, admittedly , at times have worked, which affects our children too. She didn't care about their family enough when she cheated on DH, so why would she give a sh*t about our family? 

The only person someone like that cares about is themselves. They don't care about the ripple effect their behaviour causes. 

Anon9876's picture

For her it sounds like she took an interest in your family because it was something she couldn't have. She did it to herself and I'm sure that made her blood boil to see her ex happy with you.

It speaks volumes about the level of narcissism your DH's ex exhibits.

No matter how hard you try to ignore the ex it can grate your skin at times. Unfortunately causing friction in your relationship. The best thing you can do is simply flaunt how happy DH is with YOU...not her.

runforthehills's picture

I've heard of him but wasn't sure exactly where to start. Do you have any particular videos you'd recommend to start with ? 

Rags's picture

We dealt with PAS from my SS's NCP SpermClan.  Which is not the norm when it comes to PAS.  In our case they would spend nearly their entire visitation time with SS undermining our family/marriage and planting toxic crap in his head about how CS was taking food out of his three younger also out of wedlock SpermIdiot spawned half sibs' mouths. How I was not  his REAL dad, I was only is StepDad and he couldn't call me dad(dy), how it wasn't fair that he had nice things and his half sibs didn't, etc, etc, etc....

So we adopted a facts based appoach to countering their toxic PASing shit.  We shared the facts with SS in an age appropriate manner. We reviewed the CO with him the, the CS details, SpermClan court records, arrest records, divorce records, financial machinations, ... etc...... 

By the time he was in his early to mid teens he knew the facts and could call their manipulating bullshit when they pulled that crap on him while  he was on SpermLand visitation.  We felt that it was important that we help him to protect himself from them both as a child and as an adult.

It worked.

Facts are friendly and facts are neither good nor bad. They are merely facts.  Give the Skid(s) the facts and they can learn to protect themselves from the shallow and polluted half of their gene pool.

Good luck.

Anon9876's picture

That's the smart thing to do-give them knowledge that they can use as defense against that level of manipulation and dishonesty.

At least then if the child chooses to side with the guilty party they are well aware of just how despicable that person is.

Goodluck's picture

Looking back Rags at 'our' situation (gosh hate to call it a situation) and viewing it thru a more educated lens, I totally agree with you.

If you or i were to take a poll today AND 20years ago the masses are 'strongly suggesting and at times ordered to"  take the high road, never ever talk to kids about anything going on between divorced parents. 

I 99percent disagree with the masses more firmly now.  EVERY kid should know the truth in a age appropriate manner.

Kudos to you RAGS!!!!

notasm3's picture

I was not around when SS was a minor.  SS was an out of control person from the time he was FIVE years old (when his first inpatient psych stay was recommended) (before their divorce).  When I first heard how wife #2 treated SS (not having him around her children) I thought she was awful.

Wife # 2 was not a nice person for many reasons but not how she treated SS.  He was a horrible person. And  wife # 2 was absolutely correct in in not wanting SS around her children.  I do not blame her for that at all.

But none of that is any of my concern as SS was in his early 20s when I met DH and he and wife #2 had been divorced for several years.

Goodluck's picture

When left untreated Pathogenic Parenting will not just 'go away" when the kids turns 18. 

 KIDS WILL NOT AND DO NOT REJECT a bio parent unless Pathogentic parenting is present.  "Parental Alienation or PAS" in pop culture terms.

Take Foster kids for example.they..want relationships with abuser or neglectful parents or drug addict parents. These kids want to go back to that enviroment they were removed from . It is not because they are "Gold Star" Sticker parent/s.

The following taken from Dr Childress I have provided this link below if you are interested.

-----------------------------

The trauma pathogen of “parental alienation” (as defined and described in Foundations) represents the transmission of attachment trauma across several generations.  The childhood developmental trauma experienced by the narcissistic/(borderline) parent resulted in a disorganized attachment system that subsequently coalesced during late adolescence and early adulthood into the narcissistic and borderline personalty traits that are now driving the pathology described in an attachment-based model for the construct of “parental alienation” (Foundations).

But the pathogen didn’t begin with the childhood of the narcissistic/(borderline) parent. Instead, the origins of the pathology likely extend back at least one generation earlier, to the parent of the current narcissistic/(borderline) parent.  (GRANNY OR GRANDPA of kid/s I add this for your visual in your family*GOODLUCK*)The Alpha parent for the pathology (i.e., the parent of the current narcissistic/(borderline) parent) was the likely recipient of the initial trauma experience, which then distorted this Alpha parent’s parenting practices with the narcissistic/(borderline) parent as a child that then produced the disorganized attachment that later coalesced into the narcissistic and borderline personality traits that are now driving the current “parental alienation” pathology.

This trauma pathogen likely extends across at least three generations, with the most recent trans-generational iteration of the original trauma being reflected in the symptoms of attachment-based “parental alienation.”

(Based on my analysis of the “information structures” of this pathogen, I suspect that the initial trauma that entered the family several generations earlier was sexual abuse, and was likely incest, so that the current expression evidenced in the symptoms of attachment-based “parental alienation” likely represents the trans-generational iteration of sexual abuse trauma – not in all cases, but in many.  Once professional mental health moves beyond it’s current impasse regarding its response to this pathogen then we can begin to discuss and research these deeper issues regarding this particular pathogen.)

A trauma pathogen within the attachment system that is being transmitted through aberrant and distorted parenting practices.

ALSO:

The pathogen of “parental alienation” is a trauma pathogen (i.e., it was created by trauma and it inflicts trauma) that represents the transmission of attachment trauma across several generations.  This trauma pathogen is contained in the neural networks of the attachment system (the brain system responsible for love) and it is being transmitted from one generation to the next through aberrant and distorted parenting practices.

 

https://drcraigchildressblog.com/category/response-to-questions/

 

 

Anon9876's picture

Wow, I didn't really know the source of this kind of parenting. This is certainly enlightening.

You know come to think of it the BM (perpetuate this syndrome) does have extremely dysfunctional parents.

Her dad is a total as#hole. They are both severe alcoholics-and have a violent temperament when drunk.

Her mom, my SD's maternal grandmother, actually picked up a RECLINER at 60 years old and THREW it out of her living room window into the front yard. Yeah. A 60 year old woman.

Her dad, SD's maternal grandfatger, is incredibly sexist and racist and altogether not a man you want to be around. He would kick out in his chair after work and scream 'bring me my damn dinner!' 'Take my boots off!' 'Clean this sh#t up!' 'Look at that dumb n&!^@%!' Etc. Like I said he's constantly drunk and that's how he has always been. There's no telling what that despicable man is capable of.

I can see how this could have cause the kind of parenting style BM uses with her own kids.

I'll read up on this subject more. This man knows what's going on for sure.

Lndsy747's picture

It's not always so obvious. In my situation it was more manipulation that built up not straight lies. When SD would come over her mom would tell her how much fun she was having without her and how much she missed her and wished she could be here with her. Also if SD was distracted she'd make comments about how she could just get off the phone because clearly SD didn't have time for her. SD would go from having a lot of fun with us to wanting to go home to spend time with BM any time they spoke on the phone. 

I'm fairly confident that she had made comments over the years about how if your dad loved you he'd . .  Fill in the blank based on some comments and behavior I've seen.

BM is also very good at turning situations around to be the victim or make SO the bad guy. There was once a time that SO was trying to get SD to smile for a picture after a science fair but she was upset she didn't win and started crying. Her mom turned to her and said are you about to get your period because I'm tired of you crying all the time (SD was Dirol which of course made it worse. The next time SD came over she made a comment about how SO made her cry because he was mean WTF

Dr Craig Childress talks about the favored parent downplaying having fun at the other parents house and getting really excited about any negative stories which then encourages the skid to talk negatively because they like the attention and start focusing on all the bad things. I would put good money on this happening with BM in my case.

Anon9876's picture

Yea, it is hard to identify just what is happening when it's a slow progression and less obvious manipulation.

That is so typical of some women guilty of this behavior: daddy is mean, daddy doesn't treat you well-this is all his SO's fault, that's why he doesn't love you as much anymore, yada yada....it goes on and on these mind games.

That makes sense. In my case BM would spend time with her daughter and always bring up her dad and sometimes me. It never failed SD would come back in a bad mood taking her frustrations out of  us because of all her and BM would discuss.

Over time BM instilled the ideology in her daughter that we were flat awful and her dad was 'mean' and is 'ignoring her to spend time with me' and 'making a new family' 'being a bad dad' 'is a total alcoholic' 'should spend more time with you' etc.

I suppose that's why SD started calling her mom any time there was an argument at our house. They would 'discuss it'. As if it was any of BM's business. What can I say, that's how they have bonded. By making us out to be the enemy.

I knew something was off, for instance, when BM was here before SD was admitted to a mental hospital for a short stay-she would agreenrolled with me but never look me in the eye when she apoke...

That's telling of a person's sincerity and suggests dishonesty, etc.

I knew they had talked about us before and I thought we had put a stop to that, but apparently not.

It's about mutual respect. Clearly the BM has none.

Howtohelp's picture

Bm started alienating Ss at a very early age. Why did she do it?? Simple, she just a vile, despicable person. She conviced Ss(who at the was 14) that Dh did not love him anymore, wanted to forget about it and just focus on his "new family". She ruined ss's and dh's relatiosnhip for 2 years.  Dh was shattered that ss wanted noting to do with him.  He went depressed!

Thankfully Ss(now 16) realized  the truth and literally came running back into our lives and embraced dh. Before the ailenation, Ss was a star play for his school's soccer team and got straight A's. Now he doesn't play soccer anymore(we're trying to get him back into it), he are scars on his wrist, his lacks any self worth, has developed major seperation anxiety from dh,  suffers from major guilt about his past behaviour, but luckly his grades are still the top. Dh is taking him to a therapist , changed his whole work schedule around to spending at much time one on one time with him as humanly possible. It's going to be a long time before ss heals completely 

We're taking Bm back to court for full custody. Dh does not want ss  around bm while he's trying to heal. 

Parental aliention should be considered child abuse!

Anon9876's picture

That is playing on a child's worst fear, insinuating that their parent is 'moving on' with them and there isn't enough room for him in the new family dynamic.

It's very annoying to combat against those accusations that are simpky not true.

It is just a reminder that the ex is spiteful and doesn't want to see DH happy, so she's putting a wedge in where she can fit it by using her child. It's almost as if to say, 'I'm going to make him choose between his child and new partner'. It's a lose-lose situation.

Choose your child and they think that they are the only one that matters in your life and it sets them up for entitled behavior.

Choose your partner and you are the scum of the earth who hates his kids and chose to be with the vile SM who wanted this all along!

It's crazy.

I am so glad that your SS realized the lies for what they were. It's a despicable thing for someone to play on your biggest fears-especially a child that is already susceptible to coercion and manipulation and certainly is already insecure in many ways.

I hope the 2 of you do win full custody, she doesn't deserve the chance to further muddle her child's life and self worth.

It is child abuse 100%.

1wonder woman's picture

My SO has a 11 year old daughter and sadly his ex-wife is crazy... they have been divorced for three years and in the beginning he had his daughter 3 days per week... now he is down to three hours per week... This all went down after bio mom finds out her ex husband and I are now living together in my house and her daughter and I get along great and that makes bio mom even more jealous.... After she found this news out his ex became very jealous and very controlling and manipulative.  She started to hurt my SO by keeping his daughter from visiting him on purpose. Week after week the kid would have some excuse not to visit her father especially if her mother is pissed off with my SO. Every week my SO gets a text message usually on Tuesdays... I call it crazy ex Tuesdays... First she will text him asking him if he is still planning on picking the kid up and then after he tells her yes shit hits the fan.  She goes off on him cutting him down causing nothing but drama.. She uses the text messaging on these cell phones to abuse my SO.. This goes on every week! He picks the kid up every Thursday and he spends 3 hours with her and pick up time and drop off time always stays the same... so why does this woman have to receive a text message from her ex husband every week there is nothing to talk about... he sees the kid 3 hours now thanks to his crazy ex-wife...  it is in writing nothing has changed just follow the visitation schedule no she refuses to do so.... because if she did that then she would not have no reason to text him to start abusing him. that's why!

This woman has already turned his two older kids that are 22 and 20 against their father... this woman has filled their childrens heads up with half truths and lies about their father. They have disowned their father and trust me he has done nothing wrong and the kids told him Dad you have done nothing wrong you have to exit our lives we can't handle all of the drama... and trust me the drama does not come from us... it comes from their mother. A few months ago my SO found out his ex never had the utilities switched into her name like she was court ordered to do so so he just asked her to have them put in her name... man did she get pissed... after that every week the kid would not come visit her Dad... then he finally gets to see the kid and she has anxiety so bad she can't eat and is in tears the whole time he had her. The kid is seeing a therapist now for her anxiety at least that is what his ex tells us who knows? Bio Mom used the daughter anxiety as an excuse to keep the kid from seeing her father for two months... Now he sees his kid once a week three hours no spending the night and the kid seems happier now. His ex-wife tells the kid every thing they disagree on and she fills the kids heads up with lies. We have never cut her down in front of any of her kids and we never talk to the kid about our arguments... no that should stay between us adults. but his ex tells her kids everything and more... The woman is a snake one minute she is nice when she wants something from her ex husband then when she does not get what she is asking for she bites his head off and she will make sure he does not get to see his kid for weeks.  Sadly the kids are the ones that suffer the most and trust me my SO misses his kids I see his tears he too is suffering... His 11 year old daughter use to be in gymnastics 6 days per week... her mom did this on purpose this way the kid would be so busy she would not have much free time to spend with her dad and it was a good excuse to keep the kid from seeing her father ... so the kid went from three days per week to one day day per week and she would spend the night..Bio Mom would put the kid in competition and when the kid did not win the level she thought she should of won Bio mom would get pissed at the kid and then the kid would cry because she would feel like she was never good enough in her moms eyes.  Now the kid dropped out... she no longer does gymnastics.  Plus bio mom lied to the kid and told her she could not afford to send her there anymore because her dad refused to pay her for the gymnastic classes. Well again she lied to the kid... her dad stopped paying her directly for the classes because he now is paying bio mom 4 times more in child support then before and now bio mom is suppose to pay for the gymnastics out of the child support money. Plus she is to pay for the kids private schooling too but again bio mom tells the kid Dad no longer helps her pay for that either... lie after lie... CRAZY!  But see bio mom does not tell the kid the whole truth.

His crazy ex wife is Narcissist... she wants to hog her kids all to herself... she loves to twist and turn things around to make my SO look like he is the bad guy. He never tells his kids even the adult kids his side of the stories... no he will never try and break the bond between the mother and child..He will allow his kids to disown him the rest of his life before he will ever throw his ex wife under the bus like she has done to him..  His ex wife has one goal in her life and that is to make her ex-husband suffer and make sure her children hate me... How does she do this... by keeping the kids from their father and on purpose... she hates him that much and it was she that wanted the divorce because she was seeing another man. So he gives her the divorce and she still is not happy because she wanted her ex-husband to remain her personal ATM machine... My SO calls her the VAMPIRE... she will try her best to suck his money and time and relationships and happiness away if he lets her.... 

I really believe that child alienation should be considered child abuse... no child or parent should be put through this abuse! Dads are important too... just like Moms are! Most kids that have a parent that is doing the parent alienation end up seeing a therapist... such a sad thing to go through and witness.

 

Anon9876's picture

That is just cold-hearted of the BM.

Her own daughter is no longer practicing a relationship with her father or a sport she was passionate about and could have went places with-because of her.

It's all too common to turn things around on the DH when the BM isn't getting her way, 'if your father would have given me money you would still be doing/getting blank, I guess he doesn't care anymore...must be because of that wife of his-oh honey don't feel bad though. I will always be here for you!' 

It's sickening.

In your case the BM has mental issues and is very greedy and jealous-probably because she can't snap her fingers to get her way.

It is such a shame that she has already successfully driven his 2 oldest kids away with her unnecessary drama.

Yeah Vampire is the right word for it. She wants to take everything from your DH out of spitr.

I hope that somehow the 11 year old realizes what her mom is doing and maintains a relationship with her father. I hate to see a family divided because of one person's ruthless behavior.

strugglingSM's picture

The BM in my life used some of the PA noted above. More specifically, she told the SKids that DH would love them less after he and I got married. She also told one (the one she is enmeshed with) that DH “caused the divorce” and was “going to take him away” from her when we moved closer.

She also engages in undermining DH as a parent. For example, telling SKids that he can’t tell them what to do with their phones when they are with us because she paid for them. Trying to dictate what is done on DH’s weekends. Telling SKids that they don’t have to listen to DH or meet his expectations because she is the only one who can tell them what to do. Demanding to pick Skid up early because he was “uncomfortable” being with DH after DH parented him and he got offended. Neither Skid really sees DH in a parental role anymore due to BM’s need to dominate.

The sad thing is that I can tell it bothers both kids that she does this. One is now starting to want to come around, but I know that he wants to feel ok loving his father. BM just makes him feel like he shouldn’t. As much as I get annoyed with SKids, I do feel bad that BM is messing with their heads so much. 

Anon9876's picture

I'm glad that at least one child can see beyond her cruelty.

This kind of PA is far too common. Tgete is nothing to be gained from it by anyone but the BM who gets to control and dominate her children with a smile on her face-turning them against their father and you.

For some reason the SM is often to blame. An easy target I sippose: everything was normal before she came along.

It's so awful to watch your SO go thru all of this because of his ex. Just heart wrenching to see a good father not have a relationship with his kids.

momjeans's picture

PAS here was done in the very beginning. Like, the first two years of getting acquainted with a solid CO visitation schedule. Per the norm, BM pulled all her punches via meaningful holidays to DH. Father’s Day and his birthday, mainly. BM did everything in her power to NOT give him those days with his child.

BM also didn’t give DH the right of refusal, when it came to skid needing last minute care. She would bypass him entirely and just take skid to one of those drop-in childcare’s in the city. It was absolutely ludicrous.

Parents that engage in PAS, it’s just a matter of giving them enough rope to legally hang themselves. That means you and the bio parent hanging in there as well, unfortunately.

Anon9876's picture

I wish the court would recognize this very serious behavior and interject more often.

I feel that if you engage in PA then your rights to the child should be limited and you should be forced into counseling until the day comes when you can engage your child in a meaningful and healthy relationship.

Ugh. Exes can be so spiteful.

justmakingthebest's picture

My SS is PAS'ed to the point that it is scary. We aren't giving up yet but BM is trying her damnedest to keep DH away.

- Hides/ Lies about all things medical

- Lied and managed to get SS off of our phone plan and changed his phone number so we couldn't reach him.

- BM Refuses to talk to DH about anything related to SS- what sports he is in, what his grades were, what he wants for Christmas... NOTHING

- Fights tooth and nail over visitation. We are back in court next week.

Just read my blogs. PAS is all over them.

 

momjeans's picture

Oh yes, I forgot that one.

BM removed DH off of all of skid’s medical and school paperwork. Classic PAS maneuver.

lieutenant_dad's picture

BM tried to PAS the boys by crying about how she didn't get enough CS so they would hear, disrupting DH's custody time by withholding the kids or scheduling things on his time, bleeding him dry monetarily so he couldn't fight it, badmouthing DH to friends, family, school officials, and anyone who would listen. So on and so forth.

Similar to Rags, DH took a fact-based approach when necessary, or he ignored the rumors and let his actions speak for themselves. It's really hard for BM to cry "poor single mom with no support and an absent father" when DH is writing the check for Cub Scouts and DH, GBM, BM's now-XH, MIL, and myself all show up at school events. Oh, and when she is living under GBM's roof, MIL's roof, or out of an apartment my DH was paying for (before my time).

She has given up. The fact-based approach and being involved soured BM's plans. The boys were smart enough to realize DH wasn't lying, and everyone else saw the whackadoodle liea BM was telling. As a result, she cycles through new friends/hobbies every 1-3 years as that is about how long it takes for people to realize she is full of it.

Anon9876's picture

Thank God DH was able to put a stop to her before it was too late.

A fact based approach at least equips the kids with the tools to fight off this behavior even if it doesn't work out as planned-they at least are informed before deciding to cut a parent out of their lives.

CLove's picture

There is a reason I call BM Toxic Troll and eldest Toxic Feral Eldest SD19.

ToxicTroll would tell her children very negative things about me, like "she doesnt have a chin (TT has one of those large faces with cleft chin) I dont have eyebrows (I do -they are BLONDE) I look pregnant (shes obese), and she PAS'ed the elder against me.

THEN when things were really getting going, the Toxic Feral Eldest then 17ish, would make the younger cry, with statement of "look, CLove is more important to Dad than WE are. He is going to kick you out like he kicked ME out, hes going to choose his GIRLFRIEND over his CHILDREN, his SEED, his BLOOD."

This was after an argument with her father over her filthy room that I had nothing to do with, and an argument with me over holding the rabbit inside without a towel or something because she would pee and poo. Her father had her bag some clothes and stay at her mothers until she could "straighten out" or whatever he was thinking at the time. I had never really heard of Parental Alienation Syndrom, but have definitely seen my share.

When we were going through the child support hearing, and DH was trying to get 60/40 custody so he could claim Munchkin for his head of household and lessen child support, (you cant do that, but he refused to hire a lawyer...) ToxicTroll claimed that he was "trying to take away her child" We werent asking for a change in schedule, simply wanting to document that we have more time with the child. So ToxicTroll also texts Munchkin "Urfather is trying to take u away from meeeee" involving the child in her toxic ranting. 

Toxic Feral Eldest now is no contact with DH, lives with Toxic Troll and booted Munchkin out of her room.She is mad that I completely cleaned her room of trash, and made it into a really nice space with plants and a fish tank and took the door off so its open and light. I should have kept the space locked up with all her smelly trash, empty whiskey bottle, used condoms, and dirty laundry with dirty pads. Created a shrine with empty water bottles and used-up makeup.

So, yes, Toxic Feral Eldest is just like her mother - pathalogical lying and making up stories, and now trying to PAS the little one against me, her father, her uncle and auntie and the rest of the family. Because Munchkin is happy and she wants to take that away from her.

I honestly dont know why a mother would want to break down her children and take away that thing they need most - their parents. Children NEED a healthy relationship with BOTH parents. And steps as well. 

The narcissim that I have seen! The selfishness! The trashy behavior. Endangering the children with toxic envirnoments.

Its really sad, and breakd my heart.

Today Munchkin told her father that "she doesnt like it over there much, she likes it better with us." I have to warn DH that he needs to not go down that rabbit hole, he needs to just let Munchkin figure it out  herself. Shes 12, but has had to grow up quickly.

 

Anon9876's picture

Lol, wow Toxic Troll sounds very bitter that you've got her beat in the looks department. Totally stemming from jealousy I'm sure.

Of course the eldest started picking up on that mentality. I'm sure she genuinely believes everything her mother says about your DH and you.

I understand kids can be gullible and naive but my God-they are THERE, they should apply their common sense when it comes to all these made up stories!

There was a term I can't quite remember right now that refers to a child that believes something happened that is disconnected from reality. As in: 'dad yelled at me today because I didn't give him money for my phone bill' reality: 'dad yelled at you because when he asked for your bill money you had already spent it'

It seems like this kind of warped thinking is encouraged by the BM in an effort to further distance the child from the BD.

Children absolutely need a healthy relationship with both parents. Of course that doesn't stop the BM from using them as her pawns. It's always sad when the kids suffer because of someone's narcissism.

It's great that the 12 year old understands more than her sister did what's going on. In the long run its best to let them figure it out by themselves so that they'll respect you more as adults. It doesn't help to trash talk the other parent and will only put you down to their level.

Then again SO and I thought that way.....and guess what? His daughter believes her mom about everything and is currently living with her.

it depends on the individual how things will play out.

I hope the best for you and yours.

CLove's picture

After she got done bashing my looks, because she didnt know me at all, she moved on to telling her daughter that she is really upset that I buy her things (this ended up in the child support court documents too!), and that SHE wanted the money in HER pocket to buy her daughter things. And I would take her daughter places just for "us time", while her dad was off doing something, causing her mother to be upset. So now we have an agreement that she doesnt need to share all the wonderfulness that is "CLove", because it just causes too much drama. I want my gifting to be "guilt free".

One time, last year, I got free tickets to a fun event that Munchkin wanted to go to and I did as well. It was her mothers day, I didnt want to "high jack it", so I gave her mother the tickets (dummy me!) and they went, for a few hours, didnt see any shows and didnt see any exhibits, just walked around and left. I guess I just wanted to see what her mother wouid do with it.

Well now she gets child support AND alimony and still doesnt take Munchkin anywhere or buy her much except a "treat" evry now and then.

Toxic Troll has spent YEARS telling the children, DH's family and friends what  bad person DH is. That is why she has been banned from family functions. She makes up allegations of abuse, lies about how he has hit her. 

So yeah. A little experience. I should read "Divorce Poison." and some other books.

When Toxic Feral Eldest Spewed her Toxic SLudge on DH, I just texted her that we love her and have left it at that. Im happy she doesnt live with us anymore, but I would hope we could all be cordial. Guess not!

Anon9876's picture

Wow, you can't even share a bond with your SD because of her jealousy. A changing of hands does not negate the fact tgat the money is still coming from your household.

That's very petty of her to discourage a relationship with you. I guess she can't stand the thought that another woman is capable of taking care of her daughter-perhaps better than she herself does.

She was probably scared her daughter might actually like you and want to spend time with a caring adult.

I wish there was a better way to keep up with CS. Like maybe logs of how the money was spent so the judge can determine if the child is really benefiting and if not-cut the CS. There's no reason she should receive so much if her kid is still doing without. I'm sure BM says she 'has to have it'.

Wow, yeah I wouldn't trust being around someone like that at all. I mean if she were ever alone with DH for a minute she could accuse him of abuse and he go to jail. That's despicable.

What did your husband say to his daughter? You made the right move-she probably wanted a stronger reaction from you.

Anon9876's picture

Reality shifting-that is what it's called: child believes things that are contradictory to reality.

That happened in my case all the freaking time!

SD would tell people straight out lies about us and people would believe her!

Oh pitiful her-she got child support, government checks, money from us and yet always complaining about being broke and not being able to buy her daughter essentials. Like really? You have 0 bills. And you can't afford the one bill we asked u to pay. $50 is apparently too expensive. It was all an act and a way to make people feel sorry for her.

She's just like her mom, that's why they get along so well. So many lies....and so much selfishness.....

Healyourslf's picture

I friend sent me this message this morning: 

I don't cry like other women anymore. I've felt the pain of being knocked down, and I've decided I'll be part of the construction of others! Too often, women find it easier to criticize each other instead of building each other up. With all the negativity out there, let's do something positive!

Yup.  Sometimes when I skim the stories on here, I am astounded at destruction that BMs create - particularly in the realm of PAS.  There is so much more that underlies the dysfunction of BM's who find it necessary to create PAS.  Ironically, these women who have created life are experts at sucking it out of everyone else.  Unfortunately, most BMs who assert alienation will never look into their own wounds and attempt to understand themselves.  Without pause, they act out and use their children as tools to ameliorate their personal pain.  I consider BM and SD as amoebic life forms, viruses that keep trying to mutate their hate into our lives.  DH and I consistently work to keep our partnership healthy so we can remain immune to their infectous manipulations.

SD is carrying the "mother wound" and will most likely pass the dysfunction down to her own children.  BM is an alcoholic-narcissist who "supposedly" has a familial history of incest.  She told DH when they were married that her intimacy issues were due to her brother molesting her. (Albeit, she found the gumption to have affairs during their marriage. Go figure.) Ofcourse, this may be another victim lie amongst the volumes of manipulative tactics in her deranged arsenal.

Unfortunately, SD has been molded into what BM requires to the fill the black hole of her narcissistic existence. I wouldn't doubt that BM's psychological dysfunction was epigenetically seeded into SD in utero. Stepping out of their vicious vortex was no easy task, and we are aware that BM is trying to suck SS into this malicious maelstrom of PAS.  We have hope for SS.

Those of us targetted with PAS need to hold our boundaries, speak the truth, and focus on maintaining our mental health.  I am in complete agreement with those who believe that "the truth must be told" accordingly.  The antiquated notion of "being the good guy" and refraining from speaking the facts about the alienating parent is completely ineffective when dealing with the aggressive tactics of PAS. I'm yelling it from the top of the moutain!

"BM and SD are crazy, whacked-out, oxygen-sucking parasites who produce lies like a factory in Bejing." Yahoo

BM and SD's skin-creeping behaviors are like white noise anymore.  It's there, but unless we focus on it, we don't notice.  It would take years of therapy to remotely readjust these twisted sisters, but ofcourse neither of them would ever consider they have any issues. They are the victims of their delusions. 

This might interest you. https://womboflight.com/why-its-crucial-for-women-to-heal-the-mother-wound

Anon9876's picture

I agree with your sentiments.

It's a cycle of dysfunctional behavior and abject wrecklessness and selfishness that manifests itself in any woman who has not understood the depth of her own inner pain.

I'm glad to have read up on the Mother wound. It certainly is enlightening and truly exposes the potential reasons for said PAS and it's origins.

I truly wish I would not have tried to fix what is not in my power to fix with BM and SD.

I never had a shot in hell at sculpting SD to be a better person than her mother. The fact is her mother holds all the power in this situation-as she is the main source of conflict and encourages the same in SD.

That is such a true statement:'they are the victims of their own delusions'.

I personally have never known such selfish, manipulative, lying people in my life as BM and SD.

They will never acknowledge their personal responsibility because it would mean realizing their faults and inner conflict/pain.

Thank you for this post, it really clarified a few things for me.

2Tired4Drama's picture

Just checking to make sure I understand correctly.  You are 23, your SD is 19, and your SO is 41, correct?  You've been involved with your SO for five years and by your own description, a "parental figure" to SD since you were 18.  Is that right?

You have been on ST for one week and have posted lots and lots of topics and asked for and gotten lots of input from people who spent considerable time doing so.  

You seem to be extremely well-versed in the step-life topic for someone 23 years old.  You also seem to have a great deal of experience with parenting, although your own daughter is only 1 month old.  You became involved with your SO when you were 18 so it's amazing how worldly your insights are.

 

 

 

Anon9876's picture

Yes SD is almost 19, I am 23 and my SO is 41.

I've become more informed on the topic definitely simply from being on this site and gaining understand from others' experiences.

I do have some insight on parenting despite my age. The fact is I grew up surrounded by kids both older and younger than me. I became involved with a man with kids of his own very youbg. I had no choice but to learn more about parenting so that I could be the woman he needed in his life and a role model to his kids.

Otherwise someone my age with SKs? Yeah my relationship with my SO would have deteriorated if I had not dedicated myself to becoming understanding of his role as a parent and mine as a potential step parent.

Not to mention for 2 years we were also raising my cousin whose family is such a mess thathat I have absolutely nothing to do with them.

So yeah, I guess I have a good bit more insight than is typically expected of someone my age. I've had no choice in it.

Honestly I want to help others that are going thru what I've dealt with recognize where these issues stem from and perhaps even help then to have a better outcome within their own families.

That's what I'm here for, open communication, insight, support, etc.

It's a relief to know I'm not the only one going thru these things-it's not all in my mind.

Hopefully I can become the best version of myself for SO and my daughter by understanding where I went wrong before and grasping the intricate details of parenting moreso. This site is immensely cathartic for me.

fourbrats's picture

you are dealing with PAS here. The kids were not blind when dad moved an 18 year old into their home shortly after kicking their mother out and the oldest is older than you are. Plus the now 19 year old lived with you and dad. It is also hard to continue a sport when you are drinking and using drugs (the drinks being supplied by dad) and then she got pregnant.....all under dad's roof so how is it mom's fault she is not in this sport? 

You lay a lot of blame on this child's mother. A lot. Everything is her fault when in reality this is a crazy dysfunctional situation perpetuated by your husband. 

Anon9876's picture

Their mother wasn't kicked out. She packed her bags and took off like she did when they went thru their 1st divorce.

Also, his son is not older than me. We are literally the same age.

His daughter was not drinking or using drugs when she was involved in sports, nor was her father supplying her with it at the time.

I wouldn't say it was all her mom's fault that she quit sports, but her mom certainly wasn't supportive. She always had a 'headache' every time SD had a sport event.

She got pregnant because she was sneaking boys in the house while we were at work and lying about who was going to be at her friends house. We had two blink cameras put up in the house once we found out she was doing this, but we couldn't be their 24/7.

To address the drinking once more: SO made a mistake when she turned 18. He thought she wouldn't drink with others if he let her drink with him.

Alot of the blame does lay with the mother.

She ditched on her kid and cut contact with her down to once a month. Then when they would talk she would bring up money issues she had with my SO and make him out to be the bad guy all the time.

SD would come home mad about this or that that her mom told her. The ex would make all kind of accusations and drill it into her daughters head. To the point that was a main topic of conversation between the 2: how terrible my SO is.

The mom has a history of false allegations. She does this to try to keep the kids from mybSO.

When they went thru their first divorce she tried to claim physical violence towards the kids.

The judge saw right thru her charade and replied, "if he is physically violent towards your kids why do you take them to his house almost all week?" She didn't have an answer.

So yeah, there's alot to this that you are very unaware of  my claims of PAS are not bull. I simply didn't realize until now that their was a name for her behavior.

fourbrats's picture

had an affair with you, even it was an emotional affair. I would consider his wife as kicked out at that point. Then he moved you in. Your "SS" was not alienated from you or your husband, nor was his older daughter. You said she could no longer live in the home and she was sent to live with her mother. How did mom alienate an 18 year old from his father? You don't think your SO alienated himself my moving another 18 year old into the home? 

You seem to change the story to suit your needs. You don't have the typical PAS story because there is no alienation going on. Period. The kids are not blind to their dad having an affair, moving a new big sister into the home, not paying attention to anything they were doing and so on. Dad had custody, dad made mistakes, dad failed as a parent. Period. End of discussion. You have a SO problem in that he cannot parent. Blaming mom is easy. You and your SO refuse to take any responsibility for any of this and that just furthers the issue. 

Anon9876's picture

His son is not the main victim of PAS here. His daughter is.

The kids didn't like my age, that was their only complaint. Their dad was still very much their for them. Dad may have failed in many ways as a parent, but the mother did too. He did not cause the alienation.

If you look up signs of PAS, the mom is textbook:

*sharing intimate adult information with the kids.

*speaking negatively of the other parent to child and others whenever they are presented with the opportunity to appear as the superior parent

*refusing to co-parent for the children.

*false allegations of abuse

*emotional manipulation from parent by way of enforcing negative ideologies of the other parent onto the child and having them "pick a side"

My SO and I have and do take responsibility for many of the wrongs we have perpetuated against SD. That does not mean that BM is not guilty of PAS, she clearly is.