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I am the outsider

Bamb's picture

Hi everyone, I was hoping you all can help me with some advice. I have a 22year old stepdaughter. My husband and I have been together for 6 years so I came into her life during her teen years. To say it was a struggle is an understatement. She is his only child and there were no boundaries between them. She was 100% a mini wife.  After lots of counseling and her maturing a little, we have come to a slightly better place. We are cordial and we see her about once a month. The thing is, I still feel like an outsider when she is around. It isn't anything blatantly rude but *I* feel that she has some manipulative /passive aggressive behaviors still. 
She incessantly talks about their personal memories before I was in the picture. She constantly compares how alike they are or that she got this trait or that gene from my husband. And I mean constantly!! We can be talking about any subject and she will find a way to relate it back to how she gets x,y,z from her dad and they had the BEST times together. He plays right into it and eats it up. It has made our time together so unpleasant for me because I feel like she is trying to make it known I'm on the outside. 
I tried to talk to my husband about how this makes me feel but he says that I'm just being too sensitive and he won't walk around on eggshells with conversations with her just to make me feel better. He says I'm never satisfied with any time we  have with her, I always find a problem. 
Is this behavior common? Why does she do this? What can I do? Thank you for listening!

Winterglow's picture

So I'd choose to be absent when she's over. I'd rather do something more enriching elsewhere because my mouth is liable to get carried away...

 (Sad for her) You're so young to be wallowing in nostalgia. Why aren't you out making new memories rather than dwelling on the past?" (Implying "like other people your age do")

(Laughing) "The way you go on about all that you inherited from your dad makes it sound as if you doubt your genetic heritage."

"I'm so glad the past was so rich in memories for you but why aren't you both out doing things to make new memories?" (gets them out of your hair for a while)

Have yoiu ever tried reminiscing about life before with your kids in front of your DuH? Letting him know how it feels to be on the outside looking in....

Bamb's picture

I love this. I try to be very conscious about talking about that stuff excessively in front of my husband because I know it stings. But maybe I should give them both a taste of what it feels like? 

Yellow glasses's picture

I think if you cant change how you feel long therm, maybe this is not the situation for you.

Stuff like that you cant avoid no matter what you do or implement, and I guess is somewhat normal. Now if you feel bad as if its made with an agenda then, yeah, try to avoid them when she comes.

But for me, I cant live a life in which I cant control my enviroment, I gotta tolerate it. So time for some deep thinking.

Bamb's picture

Very true. I thought as she got older it would get better but it hasn't. I don't see it ever changing. 

ESMOD's picture

Since you can't change her behavior and your husband doesn't see this as an issue, this may be an issue that you decide to not make a hill to die on.  It's once a month.. a few comments.  

As long as you feel like you are part of your husband's family from HIS perspective.. isn't that the most important thing?

When these occasional visits happen.. I might see if I could be semi-otherwise occupied.. or even encourage him to spend daddy daughter time alone occasionally.

This is obviously annoying.. and you could try to steer the convo back to your history and things you have done... but at the end of the day, it's not really a constant issue since she is no longer in the home and not a super frequent visitor.

tog redux's picture

If he can't hear any concerns from you, then don't participate in time with her.  If she's at your house you can be friendly and say hello, and then go do your own thing.  You aren't obligated to do everything he does with her. Treat her like you would a friend of his that you don't like - be civil and leave the two of them to their reminiscing. 

Bamb's picture

I want to do this! I HATE spending time with her but I do it for him and for our family. I have kids also and he wants us so desperately to be a family but when she is around the spotlight is on her and everyone else gets ignored. It is exhausting. He would be upset if I didn't participate. 

tog redux's picture

Okay - so you are upset now. Why are you prioritizing his happiness over your own? If he wants you to participate, he can stop poo-pooing your feelings about being excluded. 

Rumplestiltskin's picture

At the risk of sounding sexist, women will sometimes bully each other in much more subtle ways than men do, so the men don't see it. In this situation, you have been painted as the nagging wife and she is the sweet princess. You can't win, so don't participate.

They can hang out alone, since she seems to require a lot of attention from her dad and doesn't seem to want to share it. If they really were unhealthily enmeshed before you came along, she probably feels a sense of loss now that you are present. This isn't entirely her fault, he has unwittingly set you up to be rivals and now is acting so confused as to why you don't get along. Guys who do this to their kids do it because they require an unhealthy amount of attention, too. If it's only once a month, let them hang out without you. It sounds miserable for you anyway. 

SeeYouNever's picture

I think this is exactly right. The SD is subtly showing her disapproval of you while right in front of her dad. He doesn't see it because she's doing it by sharing memories with him which he finds gratifying. He can't see the other side of it. 

My SIL used to do this when DH, SD and I were hanging out with his family. It was subtle and everyone enjoyed the trips down memory lane but it was a conversation that very clearly excluded me, which is rude. After we had been together for a while I remember thinking to myself "has SIL not made any new memories in the past 5 years??"

I agree with the others in that you should let them have time to themselves. I doubt the same topics will come up if you aren't present. 

Bamb's picture

Yes! I know they probably don't have these convos or comparisons when I'm not there! Thank you for sharing your experience. Was beginning to think I was going crazy! He doesn't see the issue at all. 

Bamb's picture

You hit the nail on the head!! It is subtle (bitch talk as I call it). He is so blind to it!! And you are right, it is miserable for me. 

AgedOut's picture

you can't change this so you have choices: let them go to lunch once a month to play memories. make plans of your own when you know she's coming by. or (don't do this ... maybe not anyway but it's my favorite) when she starts steering the conversations down memory lane, pull out your phone and play you some candy crush. when called out on it it innocently say "I wasn't part of the conversation so I thought I'd play until you were done and ready to include me" 

Bamb's picture

That's exactly what I do! Pull out my phone and ignore it. And she usually trails off when she sees I'm not an audience anymore. 

AgedOut's picture

I've given it more thought. Mainly because I'm mopping it it takes zero mental power to do it. I think, because I've actually been in situations where every damn time we got together with this person it was a mental photo album session, you should suggest a Dad/Daughter lunch once a month. And do it nicely. "I know it botthers you when I voice my feeling left out when we spend the evening w/ your daughter. I know you two have so many special memories you want to relive and there's nothing wrong with that. But it makes me feel unwelcome when it happens and that's not fair to me. So why don't you take your daughter to dinner once a month and I'll make plans for myself that evening. That way you get your trip down memory lane and I get to enjoy my evening too. Win/win for both of us!" 

 

 

Bamb's picture

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I am considering this. I think he ultimately still won't be happy because he wants us all to be a family. And if I don't follow along with my fake smile and just take whatever comes, he resents me. I would love if I never had to see her again. 

Bamb's picture

So I think it's pertinent to say that his daughter was a result of him cheating on me. We were high school sweethearts and he cheated on me with her mother and she was conceived. We both went our separate  ways but reconnected 6 years ago. So there is layers of baggage here. She has been an absolute nightmare from the start. Sabotaging our relationship, involving her mother, not speaking to him for a full year when he laid the first boundaries, badmouthing me to him and she literally told him "I am your only blood child you have, you don't want to lose me".

soooo I'll be honest, I do have tender feelings when it comes to her comparing how similar they are and talking about memories, even ones including her mom. 

AgedOut's picture

That's why it might be better to bow out on these little memory sessions. He won't like it but as it sits now, the only one happy is his daughter because she knows she's causing issues. He may find, although men don't always see things, that her love of rehashing memories may disappear when you do. Why would he want you sitting there unhappy? Why would you want to go? This way he gets his daughter time, you don't have to sit there and she gets her rehashing (which I'm guessing is her weapon)

Ispofacto's picture

I'm guessing SD will lose interest if OP disengages from this stupid highschool meangirl competition.  DH loves to wallow in the attention of two women fighting over him.  He'll be so disappointed.

 

Bamb's picture

You just put a name to what it feels like! Mean girl high school drama! I literally feel as if I've gone back in time to the mean girl stuff with her mother!! 

Loxy's picture

That bit of knowledge makes your DH's behaviour even worse. He's already trying to dictate/control when and how you interact with his daughter, while discounting your rational concerns and feelings, but now he's also dismissing what is a very sensitive history.

I think you need to take control back of the situation. When and how you interact with this woman is entirely up to you! If she tries any games then get up and walk out of the room and make yourself busy elsewhere. Plan lots of things outside the house for you when she visits. And do not include her in any dinners with your son, you have every right to fully enjoy your time wth your son without your SD ruining it and your DH can just deal with it. 

step-out's picture

My SD LOVES to do the same thing. Perhaps we can get them together so they can share their happy past memories. All I do is cringe when this happens... you've gotten some great advice here. I know from the help of everyone here, that I have the freedom to not participate and walk away or sit and feel my blood boil. Or... next time, get in touch with one of us who is in the exact same boat and we'll start making our own memories! 

Bamb's picture

I'm glad I'm not the only one. You are correct, I should walk away when these things happen instead of sitting there and letting it fester.

TheBrightSide's picture

Is it possible SD does this because she's feeling very inesecure about where she fits into dad's new life?   Maybe this is more about her insecurities and less about wanting to show you're an outsider.   

If she is truly behaving this way to reinforce that you're the outsider, rather than be passive agressive....try participating?   If she doesn't get a negative reaction from you, she'll stop doing it.

Next time, encourage it?  Ask her detailed questions?  Delight in it.

Bamb's picture

You could very well be right. However, the comment that leads me to believe that it is spiteful is when she told her dad that she is literally his only blood child and if he didn't make things right with her he wouldn't have a child anymore. So, it feels pointed if that makes sense?

I give her no reaction whatsoever, she has no idea this even bothers me. I just don't really say much. To be quite honest with you, I can't imagine delighting in anything that she says! LOL

Ispofacto's picture

Without a doubt.

I'd be interested in hearing how their relationship ended.

 

Bamb's picture

They had her as teens and broke up when she was less than a year old. They did not co parent well and they both bad mouth the other parent sadly. 

Unsureofthis's picture

My SD does this as well. Memories are discussed at lenght, particularly when my DDs and his kids were having dinner together, leaving me and my DDs completely out of the conversation and the 4 of them going down memory lane. I eventually put my foot down and we stopped having these ridiculour gatherings where DDs and I would just sit there looking at them having a nice little love in without us being able to contribute. Of course when I put and end to the dinners at the request of my DDs it turned into "you don't like my children!". Bah. SD21 also comments all the time about how similar she and SO are and all the traits she has inherited from him. It's tiring and I can completely relate. Honestly, I would just leave the conversation and not partake anymore. That is what I did/have done and it has worked; she has stayed away and I haven't had to listen to the drivel coming from her in quite some time. They need to move on with their lives and make new memories like some other posters have said.

Bamb's picture

Thank you so much for commenting. It makes me feel so much better to know that I'm not alone. That is exactly what happens, me and my children sit and stare at them while they talk about their memories. The spiteful part of me wants to give them a taste of their own medicine. How would she feel if I started commenting about how much my youngest son is just like her dad and they are two peas in a pod and attached at the hip? How would my husband feel if I constantly pointed out every feature on my kids body that was like time? The fact that she is the child of the woman he cheated on me with makes it even harder because I'll admit there is probably jealousy issues there. I am grieving the fact that we will never have a child of our own together and I'll never be able to compare our child to him and us.

Bamb's picture

My husband believes the three of us should go to counseling. Thoughts? Any experience with this? Is there something that my husband could be doing or supporting me in this? 

ESMOD's picture

Honestly, what does he hope to resolve with counseling?

What does he see as the problem?

Does he think your view is wrong?  Does he not think your feelings of exclusion are valid when they go down memory lane every damn time? 

Does he just want you and his daughter to like each other? 

What is the goal?

Because the reality is that you and his daughter do not have to be best buddies.  You don't have to hang out with them every  time they get together.  It's ok for him to have time with his daughter and you take that time to do something else.. not that you HATE her.. but you feeel they will have a better time without you there all the time.  

 

Bamb's picture

I think all he wants is to have us be a big happy family. He has these visions of us all getting along and ultimately I think he wants her and I to be close. 
I feel there is too much resentment and personality differences for me to ever even like her. If she wasn't my stepdaughter, I still would not like her as a person. 
He does see my view as wrong. He says I'm too sensitive and I read into everything. He says she's fine, I'm fine, your the only one who ever has an issue. He thinks that it's perfectly fine to relate to each other and talk about the past, it's important and special. And I get that. But not to this extreme. 

Winterglow's picture

Just because he wants you to be besties doesn't mean you CAN. Maybe explain to him about square pegs and round holes? Not everyone is made to get along. Has he never worked with someone he just wasn't compatible with? 

Rags's picture

Time for you to address this each and every time with "If you two are going to hijack every conversation to make another incessent trip down memory lane, please go somewhere else."  Then turn on the TV and watch your favorite program on an elevated volume setting.  Lather.... rinse.... repeat.

As for conseling.  Counseling is never a bad idea ..... IF ..... , note the BIG if, the counselor is worth a crap.  Many are a waste of skin and the ones who are both good and experienced with blended family issues and dynamics are extremely rare.

Good luck.

Bamb's picture

Any suggestions on how to vet a good counselor? We've been to couples counseling twice for this issue. One counselor was wonderful and we made strides but she moved to another state. The other was a male and he sided with my husband and SD quite a bit. We haven't been to counseling the three of us, but that's what he wants. 

Rags's picture

I would contact your former counselor, the good one, for a recommendation of a new counselor.

Bamb's picture

Interesting post, thanks for sharing. Do you think what she is doing alone qualifies as this? I mean, I know her and her mom talk about me, they are best friends. 

shellpell's picture

The counseling idea may be a way your DH can "strong arm" you into just doing what he wants. I wouldn't go with the two of them. I may go with DH if he is open to making changes that help the health of your marriage.

Winterglow's picture

I agree. I'd be very wary of this. Marital counselling ok, but absolutely nothing with SD.

Bamb's picture

This is what I've told him, I would do counseling with just us, because we are the team. It doesn't always have to be a triangle!!

AgedOut's picture

If he needs counselling w/ his child tell him to go for it but remind him that she is not your child and there is no issue. then seperate those family meets, if he complains say "hon I know you and your daughter want to enjoy your visits down memory lane but no one else enjoys them just as your daughter wouldn't enjoy it if my kiddo and I sat here doing nothing but discussing our memories so you enjoy you's and we'll enjoy our's and I'll see you later on for some "us" time. "

CLove's picture

After reading your  post, the comments and your responses - theres a lot more to unpack here.

1. The SD is acting like a mini-wife, and so that is an entire library of issues. Youve probably looked it up. There are others on here who know exactly what a mini-wife does and how its unhealthy - for you, for the SD. Does she have any healthy relationships with others? Is she in a relationship right now? How is that working?

2. SD is acting like an emotional terrorist "you need to make things right with me, or youll lose me, your ONLY BLOOD CHILD"" what exactly was that about? I have an SD22 who is like that, too. She exhibited some mini-wife tendencies when I first began our relationship. Living with SD22 Feral Forger was HARD. She left our home at 18, then moved in with her mother Toxic Troll a few years ago, and they constantly fight. Feral Forger has asked 3 times now to move back in, and 3 times DH had to say "no", the issues you are having now you would have at our house." Of course Feral Forger blames me and sent me a text "Thanks for taking my dad away from me!!!" That plus a lot of other things made me block her phone number. Shes already blocked on social media.

3. She is subtly rubbing salt in the wound. Avoid that nasty b!tch. I know its easy for me at my keyboard with my anonymous cover name, to tell you "go do your own thing when daddy cakes wants to have a get together with precious BLOOD princess", but I have been making a move to "do my own thing" without DH. I have no bios of my own, but Im building memories with my tribe, and these memories dont include DH or his spawn (Im still mad at SD15 B/M) Im building my own separate life and he and his can do their own thing. 

It takes time and intention, but you are free and clear to do your own thing with you and yours. Do your kiddos at all mention this to your husband? You should maybe bring this up. 

One last thought - to figure out the dynamic, search on mini-wife and see why its harmful, what it looks like and perhaps do some printing and give your husband some reading homework.

Ok, my last last thought - NO to the three-way counseling. See caninelovers saga about bratty bratface. 
https://www.steptalk.org/user/caninelover

She details HER experiences with the three-way counseling. Bratty tried to turn things on her, and she had her boundaries up and ready to go.

Rumplestiltskin's picture

I agree that she may be rubbing salt in the wound. Several of my SO's kids are "affair babies", in that he impregnated the mothers while they were either in committed relationships or engaged to other men.

One of the moms was with this guy all through college but got pregnant by SO. SO and she got married and had another child, divorced, and then she had another child by her second husband, divorced, and now she is married to the first guy, the college sweetheart. SD24 often talks about how her stepfather gets upset when she talks about things having to do with SO, which she seems to relish. I'm sure she does it just to piss the guy off, judging by how she always makes sure to go back and tell SO all about how her stepdad hates hearing about him. These kids have issues. 

Rumplestiltskin's picture

Oh, and you know how i know about the sordid love triangle between SO, BM1, and SD's stepdad? It's because SD24 loves to talk about BM1 when she visits. Like, juicy stories and details that i wish i didn't know about. She has serious issues. 

Bamb's picture

She does this too! Or used to! I made my husband tell her to stop. She would call and gossip about her moms love life, relationships, she would even talk about her mom getting a Brazilian wax!  Like wtf?! Her moms name is not spoken in this house anymore!!

Rumplestiltskin's picture

The thing i noticed was that SO seemed interested in the gossip. He especially ate up the things that made BM or the stepdad look bad. I noticed the role my SO played in the dysfunction of his kids. Mini wives aren't born, they are created. Therapy may help, but he has to want to live a mentally healthy  life and have healthy relationships. My SO says he has done a lot of soul searching and work on himself in the past few years and i believe him. He has changed, but his baggage from the choices he made in the past hasn't. It's not easy. 

Bamb's picture

Thank you for your thoughtful response. To answer your questions, yes she is in a relationship and it sounds like he is a tad controlling. Her last relationship it was the other way around, she was super controlling and always picking fights with him. I don't believe she has any healthy relationships other than possibly her grandparent. Her mom is her best friend and they've been getting wasted together since she was 18. 
I have read up on mini-wife syndrome and it's fits to a T! He had gotten better over the years but is still an idiot about some things. 
It totally feels like she's rubbing salt in the wound all while having a sweet smile on her face so she looks so innocent. He doesn't even pick up on the fact that it's passive aggressive. 
Where have you found the best material on mini-wife? Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. 

hereiam's picture

he wants us so desperately to be a family but when she is around the spotlight is on her and everyone else gets ignored. It is exhausting. He would be upset if I didn't participate. 

How can he be upset if you don't participate when you CAN'T participate in reminiscing about things that happened before you were in the picture?

If he wants you to participate, the CONSTANT going down memory lane has to stop. Doing it here and there, when it naturally comes up in conversation, is one thing. For her to do it all of the time, on purpose, is another. It reeks of desperation.

I've never understood people who need to remind others that they are so-and-so's offspring. Pretty sure you are aware of where she came from.

As far as your husband telling you that you are being too sensitive, perhaps he should teach his daughter about having some consideration and being a little bit MORE sensitive regarding others. What she's doing is just rude.

Bamb's picture

Since posting this, we got together with the spawn for dinner at a restaurant. Somehow the convo moved to having having children and she said "I wasn't planned" and looked me right in the eye. Given the history between her mom, dad and I, which she is fully aware of, it was like a gut punch. I wanted to get up and run. She is fully aware of what she is doing and saying, I'm convinced. What kind of adult would be so thoughtless and disrespectful?! Why is there even a need to say that, other than to make me feel uncomfortable?! My husband told me after we left that his heart sunk when he heard her say that. I had tears in my eyes all the way home, I guess this is just something I have to learn to accept. Every time I have to see her, hear her voice, even just hear her name, I feel sick. I told my husband I am miserable in these situations. He said he doesn't want me to feel like that anymore and we don't have to keep pushing the current status. That I don't need to feel like this ever again. Not sure how that looks but it was such a relief he said that, and the first time we've had that kind of discussion.