Child-Driven Alienation
Does anyone else have experience with this? It’s mentioned in Richard Warshak’s Divorce Poison and this is exactly what’s going on with SD15.
It’s not where the child is brainwashed to hate the targeted parent, but where the child chooses to alienates herself/himself from the parent. The example Warshak gives is a boy who refuses any contact with his BM after she moves out of state to get remarried. This is what SD15 is doing - holding grudges against her dad. SD’s maternal relatives aren’t the source of it - it’s all coming from her. And now SD is starting to poison her younger half-brothers against DH with "proof" he's a horrible person.
Now reason 3001 that I don’t want her living with us: DH told me that while SD was visiting last month, SD decided to tell her half-brothers (my SS7 and SS9) about why she hates their dad, everything she thinks he has done wrong and why they should hate him too. Since then the boys have been asking their dad questions about what she said and he is having to explain to SS7 about his relationship with SD’s BM (it was a stupid drunken hookup).
SD15 is committed to hating her dad for the rest of her life and has said over and over again she wants him out of her life. She likes to rant that her dad abandoned her, that he hates her mom, that he loves my son more than her, that he has chosen his new family over her. She’s incredibly angry and holds all of this against her dad and now a lot of the same rants are coming from SS9 and I know understand why.
If she was making up a bunch of bs and lies about him, it would be easy to deal with, but SD is continuing to crucify him for mistakes he’s made and things she heard both him and me say while eavesdropping. DH readily admits that he messed up badly with SD. But that’s no reason his boys shouldn’t continue to think he’s perfect and the greatest dad ever. They should never know any of what she has been telling them about what happened when she was younger.
DH completely validates her rants against him as being partially true and doesn’t defend himself. Nor do I feel like he needs to justify himself to her. Who is she to judge the decisions he made and have to explain himself? There’s no excuses for what she’s doing. There’s no good reason to tell the boys that information other than to turn the boys against him and ruin their relationship with both him and especially me.
Both boys have been refusing to come for visitation and want their dad to come visit them and to not have to drive all the way up here. Both of the boys are claiming their dad has chosen me and my son over them - which sounds exactly like SD. I think she is behind the reason the boys are telling their mom they want the visitation schedule changed. They’re too young to know about visitation schedules. They had to have gotten that from her.
After what happened yesterday, SD is likely coming back to live with us and I just can’t deal with these sorts of problems continuing to escalate.
You know I just don't get it.
You know I just don't get it. Parents these days seem to let the kids call the shots, it is too ridiculous for words. SD15 needs to be sat down and told she does not get to come into your home and openly discuss her grievences against her father with all and sundry. If she has a problem she talks to her dad, or not at all. END OF STORY, The two younger boys, well who are they to decide where and when visitation will take place. They will do as they are told. END OF STORY.
Seems harsh doesn't it. It's called parenting. Children are children they are not the parents and they do not call the shots. Unfortunately parents these days are scared of their kids, if I say or do this, they won't like me, they wont' come her anymore, I won't see them. The kids, well they are well aware of their power and trust me, they are using it alright, but not for good for evil.
If he doesn't stand up now and lay down the rules, and let them know this is no democracy in your house, it is a dictatorship and he is the dictaror then God help you all as they get older.
My husband was like this, scared to death of his kids, let them call all the shots. Well, his fears came true despite him letting them run the show. Now not only does he not see his kids, he doesn't see his grandkids either. Why, because his kids grew up to be spoilt gimmie, gimmie, gimmie adults and nothing would ever satisfy them.
You cannot, well your husband cannot continue on this way. He needs to put his foot down and hard. He needs to be a man they can respect, not a puppet they can pull the strings of. They may like this little puppet and right now enjoy playing with it, but they will not grow up to love and respect it.
The problem is not the kids, it is the parent who by his/her silence allows and encourages it. Best he let SD15 have it now and lose her for a couple of years if need be, than keep dancing to her tune and lose her as an adult, because as an adult there is less chance of her turning around and wanting a relationship with him. Your husband has the control here, he has courts etc., on his side as far as visitation goes, and HE needs to step up and sort it out. He feels guilty about what went on with SD I get it, but he is allowing her to manipulate him and take advantage of that guilt. What's done is done. He needs to apologise, and if that is not enough and she wants nothing to do with him, well so be it. As long as he re asssures her he does love her, she will always be his daughter and he truly is sorry for mistakes he made in the past, that is all he can do. If she refuses to accept he has learnt from that, well, she is only 15 it may take time.
To be clear, SD15 is already
To be clear, SD15 is already banned from my home. What happens in the next few months is going to test that if DH does drag her butt back here. SD doesn't recognize that her dad has any authority over her. I'm not sure if DH will ever be able to enforce that without a shitstorm from her.
DH has no ability to parent her at all. They have no real relationship even though he has full custody of her. They've never bonded and she doesn't want to no matter how much DH has tried to repair their relationship or be a father. It's a two-sided street and she's so defiant that she'll do anything to prevent him from having any power over her.
SD and the boys were together when visiting DH's grandmother last month. She's likely also emailing or texting back and forth with SS9. So this isn't happening in our home. I'm not sure if it's possible to cut-off all contact between SD and SS9 unless we get SS9's BM involved.
At this point, I don't give a darn about SD15. I want her out of my life. She can die in a fire for all I care. But I don't want to have to deal with SS9 turning into her and having to deal with him next.
EBU, I agree with you. My
EBU,
I agree with you. My daughter was very angry and hurt by her father, and has continued to be. She has reasons, he went way off the right path, and I have written some about all that in my blog.... Christmas of 2010, she was so angry that she grabbed a glass of water and threw the water in his face in a restaurant.
But, as her mother, I have to recognize that holding onto that bitterness is bad for her, and I address it.
I do not allow her to say bad things about him to her brother.
I have helped her learn about forgiveness, and I have used teachable moments to help her come to a point.
I have taught her by example.
She came to a point where she realized she needed to forgive him, but she didn't know how. And she's forgiven him, but still is angry because she lost a lot because of his choices, and she still will feel angry and have to forgive him again every time something comes up that reminds her of lies he told.
Part of parenting is to teach our children how to be gracious in the face of wrong. We will all experience wrongdoing in our life. Learning how to forgive is an essential life skill. And parents can't excuse the bad behavior and bad attitudes... they must address it.
What's missing here is
What's missing here is there's absolutely no one who can talk any sense into her. DH is her only parent, but he can't parent her because she hates him too much and is unwilling to accept that unfortunately life is not fair and she got a raw deal.
Her BM is a mentally ill drug addict who she hasn't seen since she was 6. Every therapist she had had gives DH the guilt trip for abandoning her and being an absentee father and that's continue to validate that SD feels she's been wronged.
Her aunt and uncle that she's currently living with treat her like she's 22 and that she's old enough to decide for herself whether she wants a relationship with her dad or not.
I understand the problem is that SD has no parents. DH isn't her father, he's her sperm donor. She turns 16 this summer. It's too late to change that unless she wants to.
I feel so bad for her and for
I feel so bad for her and for you and your husband.
If she comes to live with you, your husband can lay down the expectations for behavior in your home, and have a "come to Jesus" meeting on the day she moves in, clearly setting the adult/ child boundaries.
At 16, only she can decide to open up her heart, but if he keeps trying, keeps showing her love, keeps showing her grace, it can do good.
My daughter is 16 and she wants nothing to do with her father. However, with guidance and parenting and consulting with a therapist, she has accepted his gifts, and has started to remember the good things about him. (For a long time, she refused to acknowledge any good memories of him.) Her father sends her cards, and she has started reading them. (For a long time, she threw them away without opening them. And I have saved them in case she ever wants to read them.) Forgiveness is a difficult thing to learn, and even when forgiveness is there, trust takes a long time to re-establish.
Best wishes!!
That's what DH hoped was
That's what DH hoped was going to happen a year and a half ago when she came to live with us the first time and made our lives a living hell, failed 9th grade and stopped speaking to DH. She was intentionally trying to drive us crazy and breaking rules. Whatever she could do to be disruptive she did. I swear she enjoys causing chaos. I know it wasn't the best situation but she made it a million times worse with her behavior.
She's threatened that if DH makes her move back, she's going to make him pay for ruining her life. I'm not going to fall for it again. I'm realistic that there isn't going to be a Jesus moment. She doesn't want to be here and will cause as much havoc until DH has had enough and lets her live with her half-sister like she wants.
I'm so sorry.... Maybe for
I'm so sorry....
Maybe for all of your sanity living with her half sister would be the thing for now.
Sometimes, people need to be allowed to hit rock bottom.
Is there any other alternative? Is there a group home that takes private placements? I have some friends who placed a an angry SD who was dangerous to the younger siblings and disruptive to family life in a therapeutic group home for 6 months... fully staffed, strict rules, established discipline. Being in that environment was good for the girl, and she got therapy, and was able to go home and ready for family therapy...
This is so tragic. If she doesn't resolve this issue emotionally, it could damage her for life.
You and DH need to be united, and nurture each other. And you may need to both be detached. Love her, be trustworthy, but don't get pulled into power struggle or drama. Only engage her when she is addressing you appropriately.
DH doesn't want to burden her
DH doesn't want to burden her half-sister with having to raise her younger sister. She's in vet school and works part-time. She doesn't have time to be a parent. But I think it's going to come down to that if SD won't stay with her aunt & uncle.
I have been calling camps and programs for troubled teens trying to find one that will work. So far no luck.
Part of the problem is her anger is just directed towards her dad. She does fine in school when she isn't living here. She scored nearly high enough on the PSAT as a freshman/sophomore to be a National Merit Scholar which DH brags about any time I bring up all the problems with this girl. So I'm getting a lot of "try family counseling first" and "your DH should try some parenting classes". Ugh. The problem is SD not DH!!
We almost need to wait until she implodes here, runs away and fails at school to get her admitted to a program since with her doing so well living elsewhere it looks like DH and I are the problems. I hate being in this situation.
"The problem is SD not
"The problem is SD not DH!!"
SD may be part of the problem, but DH has his share in it too.
When a man becomes paralyzed by fear of his child's rejection, doesn't confront, and enables the situation, he is contributing, IMO.
If she's going to live under his roof, she can show common courtesy. He can strip her room to no door, no furniture but a matress on the floor, and basic jeans and t-shirts until she either lives by his rules or goes out there on her own. He can stop letting her manipulate everything in the name of "protecting" her, and let her get what she dishes out, so that she can learn.
I hate it that you are caught in the middle, but very few children are born brain damaged in a way that brings about the kind of horrible behavior. And no matter how awful a BM is, the father contributed to the problem.
And therein LilyBelle lies
And therein LilyBelle lies the difference. You were not afraid to take the bull by the horns and set the standard. I know that is not an easy thing to do, I have had to do it, and I too was fearful of the consequences, but I loved my children enough (as you obviously do) to put myself out there, take the risk and teach them that HATE is more than just an ugly word, it is an ugly thing, and the person doing the hating suffers more than anyone.
While I understand how difficult living with these behaviours are, I will never understand parents worrying more about themselves and wanting to be liked so much, they fail to teach their children life skills, and what forgiveness is all about. They let, and worse still, sometimes encourage their children to carry hate around in their hearts and minds, and I will never, never understand it. When they sit back and look at the big picture, who has it helped, what good has it done. I understand the appalling behaviours of these kids are difficult, if not impossible to live with, but it is being encouraged by the parent who refuses to parent.
Tell it! So true.
Tell it! So true.
Frustrated mom you have
Frustrated mom you have solved your own dilema. DH has no ability to parent her. Truth be told, if you havent' reined them in by the time their two, your not going to.
You have banned her from your home, probably best for her because the more she is around DH the more defiant sneaky lying and manipulative she will become. Not good for her to be able to get away with that, she will not grow into a very nice woman. Not good for you or your family.
She wants nothing to do with DH, well, he needs to accept that, and FORCING HER BUTT back is not going to help DH build a happy relationship with her. Whatever he did in the past, he clearly has not learnt from it if he is going to continue wanting things his way, and trys to force her back. It shows he still has no respect for her feelings, no wonder she is still mad at him.
I am sorry this impacts so badly on you, but doesn't look like DH is learning to parent her any better now than he did in the past, and I suspect he is not taking any advice from you.
I've been trying to convince
I've been trying to convince DH that he just needs to walk away and wash his hands of this whole mess for over a year now. Unfortunately, daddy guilt won't let him and he feels responsible for the way his daughter turned out. I don't want her around our other things and I don't want to be responsible for dealing with a teen like her.
Forcing her butt back here is a threat if she does leave her aunt & uncles and goes with her half-brother back to her home state. She's only 15 (16 this summer) and DH is legally responsible for her - although he has appointed her uncle as her temporary guardian.
If DH lets his 15 year essentially live on her own - he's an irresponsible parent. If he makes her move back here - it's just going to be an utter nightmare. It's a lose-lose situation.
Another thing, I think SD is
Another thing, I think SD is incredibly jealous that SS7 and SS9 have a good relationship with their dad and two parents who love them(and stepparents) and instead of being happy for them, she wants to destroy it.
When you have these kids who come from insanely dysfunctional families, they lash out at traditional families instead of being glad that others have something they did not.
DH is upset that SD told him that she has never been a priority in his life. And that is the truth. His job (especially when he was in the Army) and marriage have always come first. That's the way it should be.
In the example from Divorce Poison, the boy is pissed about his mom moving on with her life, getting remarried and leaving him behind with his dad as she moved on with her life. The problem is how do you get kids to understand that the world does not revolve around them and that their parents deserve to move on and be happy with someone else and have normal, happy families?
I'm sure she is jealous, and
I'm sure she is jealous, and I'm sure this will get worse before it gets better if DH keeps forcing the issue. Can you just back off, tell him where you stand on this, he can visit her out of the house etc., but the ban stays in place, she until she proves worthy of it will have no contact with your bio kids and whatever else you feel is best for you and your kids.
He obviously isn't going to take a firm hand with her or make a stand on this issue with her, so you can only do what is best for you in your home. Once you have taken a firm decision, about what you want for yourself and your family, I suspect he will follow suit.
His daughter is going to continue to play the 'guilt' thing with him - until HE stops it.
My own SD did this with her father. Very long story, but finished up with her sneaking around behind the boyfriends back and getting pregnant within a few months of them living together they had begin together about 6 years and no accidental pregnancies, then after 8 years of trying to break up our marriage without success, she gets pregnant, and then did the games begin. She thought she could breed a trump card, and sure enough when the child was born she played it. Now DH does not see her or the baby or his sons for that matter because his daughter after being banned from my home, banned her brothers from seeing their father and they do what she says as will your SS.
What happened here does not have to happen to you, but only your DH can stop it from happening, if he continues to do as my husband did, let his daughter bully him and call the shots, he too will finish up as my husband has.
The change here only happened when I said NO MORE. My husband would never have made the change, he would have put up with her crap forever, but when he saw HE was about to lose something because of her, he soon changed his tune. I am sorry to say this and it is rude, but not meant to be nasty, your husband is weak as the proverbial (as is mine) and these guys will never stand up to their daughters, and it is not your place to. So, decide what you want for yourself and your children, that is the only power you have in this game of SD's and let the cards fall where they may. You have to save your own sanity and protect your own children. Your husband has to work out what he wants his marriage or his daughter, because your SD like mine will never let him have both.
I completely understand what
I completely understand what you’re saying. That was me up until Wednesday afternoon. DH and I had reached an understanding about SD. She wasn’t allowed in my home and I wasn’t going to back down on that. I was very clear with DH about that last month when his grandmother was here.
DH keeps asking me what I expect him to do if she does run off and I have no idea what to tell him. I sure as hell do not want her here. She can’t stay with her aunt & uncle. He doesn’t want her living with her half-brother. Her half-sister doesn’t have time. Maybe his mom & stepdad could handle her but he doesn’t want to have her causing problems for them since his stepdad has prostate cancer and that’s a big enough stress. I’ve been trying to find some sort of troubled teen program or camp. I’m not sure if that’s a long term solution and how we can afford it.
Telling him that it’s fine for him to let his 15 year old go off to a large city with her half-brother without any real adult supervision is idiotic. But don't care. I don’t want her in my home.
Well your right telling him
Well your right telling him to let the kid go and live with her half brother isn't right. So, I guess we have come full circle right back to dad, he needs to be the parent here, and by asking you what do you expect him to do he really isn't looking for answers you know that don't you, consciously or unconsconsiously he is trying to make you feel guilty so you will give in and make it easy for him. Don't fall for that one.
My guess you have tried to have some input into this in the past and you have in the past told him what you think he should do about this situation...............did he do anything you suggested. NO, then what makes you think he will now. Next time he asks, "What do you want me to do" tell him, no point in you giving input because it is now too late, had he listended to your opinion in the past, there's a good chance you wouldn't be in this position now. Let him work it out on his own, and let him know he is on his own with this. He created this mess all by himself, he is an adult, he is a parent, time to grow up now and become responsible. As I said, this "what do you want me to do/say" question is not about getting a verbal answer from you, or getting your opinion. it is about manipulating you into feeling guilty, giving in, and him getting what he wants, SD back in the house.
If I'm wrong I apologise in advance
If she is threatening to run
If she is threatening to run away, she is a danger to herself and should be placed in a residential facility for her safety.
I've been calling places I've
I've been calling places I've found online trying to find some place to put her and I haven't been able to find one. It's crazy. All I'm getting is that if she's threatened to runaway, they can't take her or the places that are secure residential treatment facilities telling me she isn't severe enough.
I know a good group home that
I know a good group home that takes private placements. Depends on your location.
Is anyone familiar with
Is anyone familiar with child-driven alienation? I have been researching parental alienation but it doesn't exactly fit the problems with my boyfriend's daughter. Her
mom is a piece of work but isn’t the one that’s behind it. My boyfriend's daughter is very angry and hostile towards her father and especially me. She refused to visit this summer, but we don’t have the money for a plane ticket so its a blessing in disguise.
What can we do to deal with this other than counseling? It’s something else I doubt we can afford. We don’t live in the same state as her so it would all be long distance. Has anyone heard of online counseling that insurance will pay for?
How is the best way to deal with her jealousy of our baby? I avoid posting pictures on FB now because I know that the first comment will be from her with an angry rant.
Oh, I forgot to say she is 13.
I hate blocking her since it
I hate blocking her since it will make it seem like we aren't including her. She won't ask me why, she'll tell everyone she knows that I am trying to get rid of her and drive her away from her dad.
FB is one of the only ways we have any contact with her. But I agree that she can't handle it.
What I can relate to in this post (I know it's old) is that there's some things the stepchild has some legit reasons to be pissed off. Its unfair that her dad can't buy her what she wants because we have a new baby and that baby has bigger needs.
Nothing my boyfriend does is enough to make her happy. She equates buying her things with love. She sees the new baby has something new and she immediately wants a big gift to balance it out. She knows we can't afford it. It's a never ending cycle of her coming up with ways her dad treats her unfairly or loves the new baby more than her and I don't know how to break it.