SS is nicer to me, but what if it's inauthentic?

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I posted a few months ago about implementing some strategies I read about in a book on borderline children. Things have improved at home due to my finally standing up for myself more and asking dh to stick to enforcing certain boundaries, which he has been doing more, which has made him less prone to being manipulated by SS and BM. Another change recently has been that most of SS's friends have gone away to college. SS couldn't get into any of his chosen colleges, so he's going to the local community college and plans to transfer next year. With very few acquaintances left nearby, SS has been hanging out at home all weekend whereas before he used to go out a lot. It's very unpleasant for me. The biggest issue with his friends leaving is that SS has now seen some advantage in getting along with me more. As stated before, he is or has borderline tendencies, so he can't be alone very long, and I guess with all of his friends gone, he's starting to see me as a potential person to exploit/lean on.

This is a problem for several reasons. I don't want to be close to him. Because he has an unethical character, being drawn into his inner circle doesn't mean that he has any interest in getting to know me or having a reciprocal, caring relationship. It means that he is looking for services and resources. Yesterday, he was trying to draw out of me ways to cheat the system (I work for the government). Dh was looking all happy that SS was asking me questions and interacting with me, but it was so that SS could figure out how better to get around the law (he was telling us about another get rich scheme he has). But of course, SS is very slick, so he couched it in a way that made it seem that he's only interested in the topic for one of his college classes. Also yesterday, because SS included me in his conversation with dh (he usually waits to get dh alone), I learned that SS's idea of a conversation was to spend an hour talking about all of his grievances and self-aggrandizement in minute detail. If dh interjected anything, SS just shrugged or said, 'I don't know.' I of course had nothing I needed to say, nor would SS be interested.

A big problem: because SS is being so "friendly", dh wants me to try harder and is expecting me to initate conversations and get closer to SS. OMG. Though dh understands my reluctance to warm to SS, he sees that as a by-product of SS's past aggression towards me. At least that gave me a reason not to have to engage SS. But how do I tell dh that even though SS is being "nicer', I am not interested in forging a relationship with a lying, manipulative user? My goal of disengaging seems to dh unnecessarily hostile given that SS is being so "nice".

Think ahead

SS is going to be in your life as long as you are with DH. I realize it's an unappetizing thought. I'd try to find a way to have a relationship with him

You and I know he's not interested in you as a person but is there a superficial mode you can tolerate? My YSS and I are like this. He's pleasant, I'm pleasant but nothing deeper. It is what it is. It helps that he lives out of town. I ask about his girls and him, he gives me the sanitized version. Life goes on.

When a snake bites you, do

When a snake bites you, do not try to pet it. DH needs this message. Keeping the reality front and center that SS is a scam artinst and his conversations with you are all about trying to figure out a way to be an effective criminal is a lesson daddy needs... repeatedly.

Civil and Superficial

That's my position. I'm slowly allowing DH's kids into my space after six years of no contact. It's being done MY way with zero input or influence from DH. He know to "stay in his lane" as I maneuver this journey.

I do not foresee anything deep with DH's adult kids. At best, casual conversation. You decide what topics you want to discuss, then play dumb on the rest. Your SS asks invasive questions regarding your government job? Hmmm....not sure. Not my department.

Tell your DH to stay out of your business in regards to how you go forward with his son.

Best to you.

I can do superficial, and in

I can do superficial, and in fact, that's the way I would like to keep it. I guess I'm looking for validation for my desire to keep a polite distance despite SS's new-found void that he wants to fill. I have good relationships with my nephews and son, and am usually inclined to embrace young people. I think dh sees that and wants me to have that kind of relationship with his son. These days, when we're all in a room together, dh will gesture to me to talk to SS when SS has his back turned. Dh sometimes coaches me on what to say to SS. He's trying to ride the wave of SS being "nice" to me, and is looking for me to engage. But I don't want to. I feel like an a**hole, but I just don't want to. For one thing, if it was up to me, I would do things very differently than what dh and BM do. I would hold SS to account and enforce a lot more rules, chores, and boundaries. Dh doesn't want me to do any of that, so if I notice SS lying or trying to manipulate me, what am I supposed to do? Just play along? Smile and joke despite feeling duped? I can do that, and keep my distance. But I don't want any type of deeper relationship, and I guess I just want validation for that.

Thanks Rags, that's the kind of feedback that I was looking for. But I guess I was also wondering if I'm not seeing something important. I feel bad that I want to give up on ever forging a deeper connection with SS, which is now so clear given that I persist in this even despite not getting overt hostility from SS. But I also want to protect myself, and also, I don't see that there is anything I can say or do that would impact SS in any significant way.

Your Validation

Is protecting your heart from MORE hurt. You only give of your heart with what that person has shown to be trustworthy with. In your SS's case, that's ZERO.

No one needs to "fight" to protect their heart and emotional health. Just set your boundaries and what you are willing to accept and stand strong. Time will tell. If your SS is really changing, he'd sit with you and ask for a new start. Not continue with the same behavior patterns.

Thank you. Everyone has a

Thank you. Everyone has a right to protect themselves, and I'm not hurting anyone by disengaging. I'm just not interested in generating fake enthusiasm. As you say, relationships have a history and trust has to be earned. If it was anyone else who has been vindictive and hateful towards me for years, dh wouldn't expect me to just instantly forgive and forget, especially on such a flimsy "turn around". But dh has huge blind spots when it comes to SS.

This is familiar...

...my mom used to do the same with me regarding my abusive father. She would tell me, "Go talk to your dad." and would coach me as well. First, I am an adult with good communication skills. Second, there were reasons I did not wish to talk to my dad. Third, The fact that she ignores the prior two tells me she had her head in the sand because she witnessed the abuse and did nothing to stop it. No, just no! Grossly avoidant behavior. I love my mom, but I am loving her from afar.

You know what you are comfortable with. Stick to it. Do not compromise yourself to spare an undeserving person's feelings. You deserve better than that. You are better than that. Love yourself and the rest will come.

That perspective really makes

That perspective really makes it stark - it feels abusive that your mom would make you crawl to your abusive dad and even coach you on what to say. Dh and I have had conversations in which I thought I made it clear to him that trying to appease and coax a bully doesn't earn you respect or their favor, it only makes them disrespect you more. He said he understood, but I think that with the recent "nice" streak from SS, dh is campaigning again. I think he knows SS is troubled, and I think he wishes SS would follow more in the footsteps of my son and nephews who attend/attended top tier colleges and are in general empathic and level headed (and not criminal). Maybe he thinks I can still have some sway, but it's far too late for that and the method is wrong.

You are not the asshole in

You are not the asshole in this play. If there is one, it is DH for trying to direct you regarding your interface with his parental failure. Though I do see how he does want his bride and his kid to develop a connection. How he is trying to manipulate that I do not think is respectful of his wife.

Stay the course, set the boundaries, you and DH be at each other's side, and do your life to the fullest. Tolerate no bullshit. Including manipulation by your DH. Stay on message regarding your positioning with his son making it clear that a close connection isn't happening until SS demonstrates decades of quality behavior and performance.

Take care of you.

Thanks Rags. I think I'm more

Thanks Rags. I think I'm more covert in my methods than you are, but you've taught me to stay true to myself and my own needs and rights. Dh can be thick sometimes. But for the same reason, he is remarkably steadfast in his commitment to people, and for the most part, he is stubbornly committed to doing right by everyone even if it's wrong-headed sometimes. But in the end, whatever SS, dh, and BM thinks and wants, I need to allow for, listen to, develop and defend my own voice in this. That has been the silver lining in all of this. I think if I never had the challenges of SS, I would continue to be people-pleasing, ignoring my own needs and preferences.

Keep your polite distance.

Keep your polite distance. Of course SS is inauthentic. The solution is not for you to be inauthentic as well. That sounds miserable and your DH sounds delusional.

Yes, this. Dh is so keen on

Yes, this. Dh is so keen on the idea that SS and I get along that he's ignoring the fact that relationships aren't built like that.

You have more of a DH problem.

Then a SS problem.. As an Adult person, wife, home maker, working to support the family.

Haveing DH "" , dh will gesture to me to talk to SS when SS has his back turned. Dh sometimes coaches me on what to say to SS."" Would tick me off totally. I would first tell DH you are an adult you made it in life, you don't want or need his help. That because SS burn through his friends. Is not your problem. He didn't talk to you forever now it's your turn not to talk to him.
m

JRI is right. SS is going to be in your life a long time, Expecally if he keeps burning through friends. And his relationship with other people will be unhealthy, SO you must someday come to a comprise with SS. But only do what you feel comfortable with. Knowing SS will backstabe you every chance he gets.

Thank you. Two things you

Thank you. Two things you said are really helpful. 1. That it would tick you off if dh was gesturing behind SS's back. OMG, let me add that dh will even mouth to me what question I should ask SS. I once did ask the question word for word as dh mouthed it, and he literally patted me on the back afterwards. Gross, right? In the moment, I'm just seeing dh's strong desire to see us get along. I've talked to dh about the inanity of him trying to force upon me how I should interact with SS, but dh can't let go. 2. SS is being "nice", but what is obvious to me and not to dh is that at a moment's notice, SS would definitely stab me in the back. On both points, real connection and trust cannot be forced from the outside.

Okay, now I am mad. Your DH is naive and manipulative.

I would have bared his ass right then and there after the condescending pat on the back. "Next time you want to ask your kid a question, you ask him. Do not think that you can spoon feed me questions for him then pat me on the back like I am a puppy who went outside instead of piddling on the carpet."

Going forward, call him on this crap out loud in front of everyone there when he tries it.

I am hard pressed to think of anything much more insulting and disrespectful to a spouse than this crap. Do not tolerate it one bid. Start baring his ass publically whe he does not.

You have more of a DH problem.

Then a SS problem.. As an Adult person, wife, home maker, working to support the family.

"Haveing DH "" , dh will

"Haveing DH "" , dh will gesture to me to talk to SS when SS has his back turned. Dh sometimes coaches me on what to say to SS."" Would tick me off totally."

It makes me want to smack the guy just reading about it.

A hard lesson is that skids

A hard lesson is that skids like ours are users with their primary loyalties normally directed toward the BM, which would be fine (re: loyalties) if specific BMs were not dysfunctional, toxic, vengeful, etc.

My SS and I actually got along when he was young. Then he began getting sucked into the wacko BM vortex and began exhibiting bad (and some illegal) behaviors. A few years ago when he was having (yet again) girlfriend problems, he called me in desperation because he knew I would be honest with him and I was not going to pull the religious condemnation on him (focusing on premarital sex, which is cheating-BM's obsession).

After SS's girlfriend situation was over, he had no use for me. He has been rude and distant for the most part.

Lesson: Do not get fooled. Do not get sucked in. Keep conversation on the surface. Outsmart the manipulative user. He's fooling your DH; your DH can be fooled by you, too. Easier than convincing him that his kid is faking it again. You don't have to say anything to DH....act like all is fine. Thank God little d-bag will be off to college next year. Time to launch, buddy!

This is eactly the kind of

This is eactly the kind of thinking that I'm trying to remind myself of right now. I've been wondering if I'm being hard hearted and unforgiving. Shouldn't I give people the benefit of the doubt and second chances? But thinking that way is a form of gaslighting given that the only reason he's siding up to me right now is that he's just bored and lonely. He would totally reverse course on a dime.

Like you, SS and I got along for the first year we met when he was 13/14. In fact, the very first outing we went on was an amusement park, and SS sat next to me on the roller coaster instead of his dad. I was kind of surprised but I took it as a sign that he felt safe with me. After the ride, dh seemed kind of peeved and told me is it okay if he sits with his son next time, as though I did anything. BM is certainly whispering in SS's ears, but dh also was not keen to see SS and me become too close either at least initially.

I think you're right that I'm not going to convince dh of anything, so my strategy should be to outsmart SS. I can mouth dh's questions to SS, interact with him enough to satisfy dh, but I want to signal to SS strongly that I am not to be relied upon for his needs.

I don't know that SS will be going away to college next year. SS reports that his professors "think he's great". But dh is skeptical. SS is not even proficient in high school math. That's part of why he had to go to community college, to get remediated. Also, SS probably barely got the 2.0 he needed to graduate. But I hope he can do it.

I've been wondering if I'm

I've been wondering if I'm being hard hearted and unforgiving. Shouldn't I give people the benefit of the doubt and second chances?

When you ask yourself these questions, just picture me . . . lying in the road, clothes torn, black tire tracks across my face, and I'm moaning. That's me after asking myself those questions and deciding that, yea, I'm being hard hearted and the skids deserve "understanding" and a second chance. LOL!

"Dh, I am not a child. I do

Seriously? Who TF does he think he is? Coaching his wife in social niceties? All thing considered, if he does the gesturing again, call him out on it "What's that dh? WHAT do you want me to say to SS? Sorry, can't quite hear you... speak up."

As for the coaching attempts, I'd tell him to put a sock in it because I'm not a child and walk away.

I wish I could do that, but

I wish I could do that, but it's neither in my personality nor would it work on dh. Dh is so supportive and sensitive in some ways, but at other times, he is a total oaf. It's so weird because he considers me pretty good at social situations, but when it comes to his son, he becomes singular in his ideas and methods.

My DH87 does this, too

When SD63 is here, my DH87 does this, too. You all have heard my horror stories about her actions over the years. Often, when I do interact with her, he actually thanks me afterward. I suspect he urges her to talk to me, too. It's sad and pathetic.

I know for a fact that dh

I know for a fact that dh also coaches SS. I don't think dh quite understands that all that does is to show SS more ways to fake it. Yes, SS was saying 'hi' and 'bye' more IF dh was around. But more often than not, until very recently, SS was still ignoring me even in response to direct questions when dh wasn't around.

How exhausting for your

How exhausting for your husband!

Of course this kid is being inauthentic.

Past behavior being the best predictor of present and future behavior, inauthenticity is his default.

Sadly, daddy is not doing anything to correct that beyond attemting to manipulate you into adapting to his kid's maniplative and deficient personality and character rather than taking direct firm action to parent his kid according to the kids default deficiencies in personal quality.

Is he being inauthentic..

Is he being inauthentic.. quite likely. Can you pretend as well.. and make your DH happy while not beliieving and truly investing emotion.. yep.

Two can play that game.. play it to your advantage.. enjoy the relative lull in problematic behavior... be "nice" and "pretend interest".. you can go wash your hands in private.. haha.

Morningmia had the same

Morningmia had the same advice which I agree with. Not even a psychologist can break through denial, defenses and other psychological blocks (only perhaps with years of therapy). So until dh has an epiphany, I have to navigate the situation at times without dh acknowledging the facts, and try to get the right outcome by maneuvering if not by reason. I have had to learn to be clear about what the reality is and what my values are because dh, SS, and BM each have their agenda and blocks that distort their view of what is true.

Thank you all for your

Thank you all for your thoughts, advice and feedback. I just wanted to add an after thought. Part of the reason why I can't put my trust in SS's current "nice" treatment is because I genuinely think he has some type of personality disorder. He's usually loud, frenetic, and obnoxious, but I've seen him switch to a hyper compliant, polite personality before too. I think it is instigated by "mortification" (I read that a grandiose person when punctured can recede into a passive, "nice" mode). It doesn't last as far as I can tell, but each time he goes into this more compliant phase, I gaslight myself and feel guilty for not embracing his new found attitude. Dh just chalks up this type of switching to SS's adhd.

SS was in therapy, but quit, and it doesn't seem like anyone is interested in getting him back into therapy. He has anxiety too, but refuses to take medication for it even after dh spent hundreds, maybe a thousand, dollars to get him diagnosed and a prescription. I read that anxiety can be an inborn disorder that needs treatment, or the normal consequence for acting s**ty in the world. In that case, anxiety goes away once you stop deceiving and manipulating people. I spend too much time trying to figure SS out. But since I'm not a doctor and can't help him, I have to limit how much me and dh are going to be negatively affected. Again, if getting some dings and bruises meant it could help SS, maybe that would be worth it. But definitely not if there is no benefit to anyone.

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SS is nicer to me, but what if it's inauthentic?