"Rioting and danger"
Over the weekend, DH took SSs with him on a march in honor of MLK. It's a march that has been happening in our area for decades as part of a day-long celebration of MLK. The United Way is one of the major sponsors of the event. In other words, it's very safe and has never gotten out of hand. DH is part of an organization that participates every year and he wanted his children to experience the event. They are also in middle school, so plenty old enough to participate. Because DH loves to document every aspect of his life, he took a picture of him with both SSs, all smiling proudly and wearing buttons that say something about love winning out over hate.
Yesterday, DH gets a nasty email from BM saying that she can't believe he took them to a "protest", because didn't he know that there's always the possibility of "rioting and danger" at these events. She can't believe he did not consult with her, "the mother of his children" and that he did not consider the possible consequences.
She goes on to say that neither child enjoyed the event and both felt totally uncomfortable being there, before ending by saying "my children will not be participating in any protests, holding picket signs, or chanting at any point in the future" and saying "my attorney has been notified."
This is the same woman who never asks DH for any input about issues to which he has a legal decision-making right and who tells the children that they are not to share anything about what goes on at her home with DH, but by all means lady, please feel free to dictate what DH does and what he doesn't do.
There's a whole lot of control, grand-standing, threatening, and PA'ing going on. The only benefit of having an attorney on retainer (in response to BM's repeated threats to mediate a reduction in visitation time for DH) is that now DH just forwards all these emails on to his attorney and then ignores them. The attorney's response, "It won't serve her well to complain about this. You are allowed to include your sons in activities that are important to you and they look quite happy in the picture."
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Comments
"I have a dream...
"I have a dream....that someday my little children will be completely controlled by me alone and my ex-husband be crushed beneath my feet." What a lovely way to honor the legacy of a great man. Stupid woman.
DH should talk to the kids
DH should talk to the kids and ask if they had fun. When they say YEAH!, he should say he just wanted to check because Mom said they didn't enjoy it, and he wants them to know they can always speak their minds if they aren't having fun at something. And if they look sheepish, he can ask if they feel like they have to tell Mom they don't have fun at your house? Why might they feel that way?
Etc. teach them critical thinking.
BAD IDEA
BAD IDEA
This puts children in the middle, enables alienation, and can be considered coaching.
It places guilt on the children and continues pressures to lie if BM is in any ways pressuring an answer from them. If BM is flat out lying it creates conflict that they don’t need to be involved in.
I don't agree at all. If mom
I don't agree at all. If mom said they had a bad time, then it's fine for dad to talk to them about that. If they say YEAH, we had a great time, and he thinks that's legit, then drop it.
If not, then talk to them about their conflicted feelings.
it's pretty well established that the targeted parent needs to talk to kids about alienation tactics and not just take the high road. Just letting it go is what enables alienation.
Review the parental alienation suggestions given by experts.
Agree. A parent should always
Agree. A parent should always be able to talk to their children about how the kids are feeling.
You can’t stop a POS parent from alienating their children, but it doesn’t mean you need to sit & be a doormat while it’s happening.
Exactly. My friend has an
Exactly. My friend has an amicable divorce, and when her son complains about something at his father's, she gives her ex a heads up so he can talk to their son about what's bothering him. Good co-parents would do that - not to alienate the kid, but to help the relationship. In BM's case, that is NOT her goal, but she's giving DH information that he has every right to discuss with his kids.
Agree
While I agree generally with your thinking, knowing one SS (the SS that I can say with certainty told BM about the march) and how enmeshed he is with BM, I think it would cause more trouble and drama for DH than it would be worth. This SS would likely get defensive over lying to BM about not having fun and then because he "felt bad", he would tell BM that DH was trying to get SS to lie about her. Both SS and BM are two peas in a histrionic, truth-stretching pod. They also feed off one another's drama.
BM has also told DH repeatedly that this SS really doesn't like skiing, even though this SS is always telling me how "awesome" skiing is.
DH has told this SS that he needs to stop trying to cause drama between DH and BM when SS is at our house, but otherwise, he typically tries to ignore she exists when he is with SSs.
You don't have to say one
You don't have to say one word about BM, it's not about her - it's about HIM and the things he feels and does to deal with those feelings. You would never say, "BM pressures you to say bad things", you just say, "I hope you would tell me if you weren't having a good time," and "it's OK to have fun at both of your houses," etc.
The interaction you described with BM is alienation. They may not be fully alienated, but they are at least mildly alienated if they are lying to BM about having fun at DH's. Beware of doing nothing, it can backfire.
Alienation
They are alienated to a degree, but still like spending time with DH.
We have conversations all the time about how it’s okay to do things at our house that they don’t do with BM and vice versa. We also remind them that they do have fun with DH and encourage them to focus on enjoying their time with their father when they are with us.
DH has also said to this child that it hurts him when he says that he doesn’t like coming to our house and the kid gets all defensive and says, “I didn’t mean it...” and on and on and on. So, the kid is conflicted, but we don’t bring up BM.
I don’t want to scare you,
I don’t want to scare you, but my SS went from where yours is, to completely alienated by age 15. Don’t take your focus off of helping him avoid that.
Agree
Unfortunately, I think you're right. I've encouraged DH to search out a parenting coach who can help him try to identify productive ways of preventing this. I've also shared lots of articles from counselors about parental aliention and how the parent who is being alienated should try to address it.
He's concerned about alienation, but he's resistent to really working on it. I think it's partially because he's sad that it's happening and partially because he's optimistic that SS won't fully be alienated. It could also be that SS is so much like BM that sometimes DH just doesn't want to deal with it and sometimes SS's behavior will trigger him, so he tries to avoid responding, because he doesn't want to respond out of anger.
One SS is going to face a hard road, PA'd or not. Right now, he is so enmeshed with BM and she is likely borderline, that I fear her wrath will come down on him as soon as he tries to assert some independence. SS is not old enough to realize, but all of BM's fear-mongering and finger-wagging over DH has nothing to do with DH. When DH no longer has to interact with her at all, she'll have to target her anger and manipulation at someone else and it will likely be SS (assuming her current "husband" is no longer around). She's already manipulating SS, he just feels as if she's on his side, so doesn't see the manipulation. I think the other SS is more savvy about the fact that when mom wants all the details of what happens at dad's house, she's not doing it because she cares. Then again, BM doesn't really care all that much about the other SS, so that might make it easier for him to avoid her interrogations.
My prediction is that the SS who is being PA'd is going to be borderline himself, since he has already start believing that people are out to get him and continues to be completely emotionally dysregulated, even in situations that should not lead to dysregulation.
Rioting and danger?Did she
Rioting and danger?
Did she think this was a sour BM's anti-SM get together?
Wow!
Solidarity marches, rememberance parades, even protest marches are part of civil life.
It is a way of showing up and supporting what you believe in.
Why does your BM think people would disgrace the legacy of MLK jnr with uncivil rioting and danger?
Why would she think your husband would endanger the lives of his own children - by for example taking them to a contentious large civil gathering which could turn violent?
There is an ugliness to her thinking.
(BTW, we are not in the US, but we played Stevie Wonder's "Happy Birthday" at lunch time where most of my co-workers attended because his legacy matters to some people here too.)
Ugliness in thinking = racism
BM has probably never actually interacted with a person of another race. She moved SSs by choice to a town known for its racism, after the divorce. This makes it all the more important, in DH's mind, for SSs to understand that there are places in the world, even close to where they live, where not everyone is white and there is nothing "bad" about people of other races.
Her and Crazy are 2 peas in a
Her and Crazy are 2 peas in a pod! This is exactly something she would do. So much drama over so little.
He should send her the same
He should send her the same email every time she takes them to a movie theater. Or a concert. Or sends them off to school. I mean, doesn't she know how DANGEROUS those places are?! *eyeroll*
I took my kids to an anti war
I took my kids to an anti war march/rally years back when the US was occupying some country that didn't want us there. There were pics all over social media and my son was in several of them even the local news. He was at the front and doing flips and cartwheels so got lots of attention. When exH saw this he was livid and said I shouldn't take my kids to things like this since he was in the military. Well dum dum you created children with a peace loving tree worshipper so yeah I'm going to take them to events that are important to me, besides they had a great time!
Your DH has every right to take his kids to a peaceful march and hopefully he's smart enough to get them the heck out of there if there's the slightest sign of trouble.
You should have told her not
You should have told her not to worry because they had guns on them in case of a riot lol. But for real...shes either nuts or complaining just to complain (I'd guess that one). I'd ignore her altogether. And if the kids really didnt have fun so what not everything you do with them has to be fun. Especially if it's an event honoring something like that...I mean I always thought the veterans day events at school were boring when I was little but looking back it's something important for kids to learn about and attend.
Exactly
That's exactly why DH took them to the event. He also had them go put flags out on graves at the local military / veterans' cemetary for Veterans' Day. For him, it's important that they understand things about our country and as a parent, it's his right to do what he wants with them on his time.
I think meeting me and now having a lawyer has really empowered him to ignore BM. Best case scenario, if they ever actually mediate, they'll reach some agreement that involves leaving one another alone entirely.
And yes, she's complaining just to complain and act as if he is putting the kids at risk.
I highly recommend Our Family
I highly recommend Our Family Wizard for all communication!
https://www.ourfamilywizard.com/
See if he can't get it court-ordered.
I’m of two minds, she’s
I’m of two minds, she’s either pissed because she saw that video of the teenage kid and her kids didn’t make the evening news like he did.
or she’s pissed because she saw that video of that kid and thinks all protests are like that and her poor babies were in danger.
either way it’s just a way for her to make the whole situation all about herself.
I took my son to the women's
I took my son to the women's march in London because it was my day and because I felt it was important for me as an American to demonstrate that I do not support the current administration. My ex warned me about the anti-fa. Ha ha. It was all very chill. However, I did have a plan B because every protest does carry risks and I've seen bad stuff happen on London marches and if my spidey senses tingled I was planning to cut out early.
Did my son have a good time? No he did not. (Not until we met a friend half way through the march and then he did.) Did I give AF if he had a good time? No I did not. Not everything is about having a good time and a march isn't an amusement park. If you asked my BS if he had a good time on the march he would say no - (though I know he did enjoy the 2nd half). So I don't think your SSs' enjoyment of the event matters one jot. I would expect that they enjoyed some bits and found other bits boring - because waiting around for the start, etc IS boring.
My ex took my son to a protest that I am completely 100% against on both ideological and practical grounds. I simply told my son why what they were demanding was stupid on the practicality side and left it at that.
My ex has taken a very dark turn with his politics. His moral compass is now pointed at the sewer. I'm not shy about saying so because I will not raise a bigot and I still believe in democracy. I'm a moderate politics wise so I'm ok with him being exposed to other ideas, but I can't support hate.
OP - BM may be on a steady diet of Fox news where they like to big up the dangers. But there are dangers everywhere.
Ohhhh - this is the same BM
Ohhhh - this is the same BM who left her sons home alone all weekend so she could go an adult-only ski trip? Yeah, good danger sense BM. Nicely played.
That’s her!
Yes, that’s BM and I can guarantee that if DH said to her that he thought the kids weren’t safe staying home alone and he thought she was irresponsible for not thinking of the “potential consequences”, she would have come back and said “you can’t interfere with my time” and “you’re only saying that because you hate me!”
File Under
Ye Olde BM Grasping At Straws....Again (TM)