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SD is starting to not take sh*t from anyone.... And now for some religious questions! Any Input??!!!

Stick's picture

Well, the poor girl has been holding back her emotions and questions for so long it is now alllllll coming out.

In early 2006, when DH and I got engaged, it must have bothered SD because she asked one of her Religion teachers....

Is it a sin if someone is divorced and then gets re-married? To which, the teacher, in all her infinite wisdom replied, that YES it is a SIN and her father is disobeying the Commandment of Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery. (He's committing adultery by getting remarried, don't ya know.??) And then somehow... SD came away from that class with the "knowledge" that her father was going to hell.

BM has been more involved with that Church and SD's classes, so she talked to the person in charge back in 2006. Supposedly the teacher got "talked to", and that was that.

Well, now fast forward 3-4 years. SD had seen this teacher recently and did not want to be "blessed" by her because she was still angry.

Yesterday, she decided to confront this teacher. After their confirmation class, she went and saw her and said "You said my father is going to hell!" To which the teacher replied, "You look upset. Why don't you have a seat and we can talk about this??" Ha! It turns out the woman in question apologized to SD and said that while the Church believes that some sacraments (such as marriage) can only be done once (!) , she was still very sorry she had hurt SD's feelings so bad. SD tried to counter with "Penance can be done more than once"... and "If dad had an annulment, then he wouldn't be committing adultery". To which that answer was Yes. But then she went back at them with "Well, he could have just PAID MONEY to have an annulment, so really what does that mean?" That was they decided to bring in the "teacher in charge" of the youth group services! This cracks me up! The teacher did not back down from her interpretation of what the Church feels about divorcees remarrying, but she did apologize. Her and SD decided to "agree to disagree" and SD felt much better!

SD can "agree to disagree" with everyone but her mom.... Ahhh but that's the trouble, isn't it?

So.. moving on from the Adultery Discussion and the feeling that I now should start wearing a Scarlet "A" the next time I go to Church...

SD has confided that she is having trouble with the interpretation of this Commandment...

"Thou Shalt Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother"

She feels that everything bad that happens to her is a result of the fact that she is, in effect, disobeying this Commandment. My best shot was that "Honor" meant, do not disrespect. Meaning,... she doesn't have to get along with her mom, but there is never a reason to treat her like dirt. She should never treat her mom like she is dumb. She should never be disrespectful of her mom's place. But that also does not mean that her mom has the right to treat her any way she likes either. The respect needs to go both ways. And if she does decide not to see her mom, she has to do it gently, and not mean.

Can someone please just shoot me now? Or wait.... let me have one last margarita, and then just please shoot me!

Comments

Amazed's picture

Can't shoot you...but we can drink til you're comatose if that helps

Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others. ~Buddha

Stick's picture

I'll take it BBB.... Cheers
Nastrovya
Salute
Slainte
Cherio...

*** A rainbow just threw up on me... and now I'm sh*tting glitter! ***

stepoff's picture

Wow, your SD sounds pretty bright. Good for her for calling the church teacher on what she said and standing her ground.

Sita Tara's picture

You took me back to when DH and I were just living together. DH never got an annulment, but SD was still in Catholic school for a few more years after we married. SD used to ask me a lot of questions, because she liked (then- ha ha- now it's rare for her to consider me a resource for info) she liked my UU ways of being able to answer religious questions from a historical and philosophical point of view, rather than a bias of my own faith view. But after every conversation, I made sure to tell her, "Don't tell 'em your UU SM said so!" DH thought that was pretty funy.

Eventually, SD decided she didn't want to be in Catholic school anymore. She sometimes embraces her Catholic roots but as is many things for her it's superficial and depends on if her current best friend is Catholic or not.

BM had been Catholic in name and belief only, not practicing for years before the divorce. Once DH decided he didn't want to practice any longer, I think it was tough on SD to continue, since it was something she felf connected her to DH.

One of my proudest moments took place at a Christmas program at my church. The kids all could decide to participate or not, and SD had attended with us often so she did.

But she wrote her paper as a Catholic, and it was something about how wonderful she thought UUs were that they welcomed everyone into their church, and didn't ask them to stop being whatever faith they were to join in the services etc.

It was really beautiful. One of the last of those moments before SD flipped into disliking me.

I think you did a fabulous job with her as usual Stick. Your determination to bond with, do the best for, and seek answers toward how to do the best thing all the time.

Reminds me of me once upon a time. Reading your posts helps bring back some of the good memories that can be lost or buried when you are dealing with a borderline teen.

HUGS again!
"Parental love is unconditional, relationships are reciprocal." ~Zen

Stick's picture

Hey Sita!! Thank you!! And Thanks for mentioning another religion. I am Catholic, and I actually love some of the traditions, but I don't like the "judgmental" aspects of some of it. In my mind, I am able to separate the things I love about the Catholic religion from the "follies of men" so to speak that feel like they are able to say in any way shape or form what exactly we should be doing.

However, I just looked up UU and will show that to SD. She has been curious about other Christian based religions and asked me if I would let her explore them (Buddhist, Hinduism, etc.)

There's actually 2 UU Churches around here. I'll take her for a service soon!

Thanks!

*** A rainbow just threw up on me... and now I'm sh*tting glitter! ***

Sita Tara's picture

I will warn you that no two UU congregations are the same (like other churches but moreso.) If you want to send me the link/info to the churches you are considering I can let you know my thoughts on their church/faith culture.

The absolutely most wonderful UU church I've attended is very similar in message and format as a United Methodist church (which was the church we attended occasionally as kids, which is probably why I like it so much. But it's far away and not practical for us.

My congregation has only 50 people in it!

Also, heavy on the donkey population and DH is an elephant kinda guy. So though no pulpit is allowed to preach politics, members who gather for fellowship elsewhere have a variety of just left of right to farrrrrrrr left of left.

Even though UU's are based in Judea Christian beliefs, they don't discuss any creed of either above any other world religion. Also, I'm sure there are some, but I've yet to meet a divinity based UU Christian. They also have accepted practicing Pagans into their churches and some people without any experience in what that religion stands for can be uncomfortable with that.

If you are looking for a open minded Divinity Christian faith based church then you may want to check out the UCC- http://www.ucc.org/

"Parental love is unconditional, relationships are reciprocal." ~Zen

stepoff's picture

You're absolutely right Sita. Although the religion is the same, the churches can be very different in how they go about things. We're Catholic, too. One church wouldn't baptise my niece because my sister wasn't married. She went to another church and had no problem. Also, some are all about the monetary donations while others are more about the religion itself. Definitely check into other churches in the area.

Sita Tara's picture

Leadership is crucial to the congregational culture too.

DH's old church is a dinosaur that's dying out for it's inability to connect with modern parishioners. The monsignor is a large, angry looking man who does things like tell parents they may NOT take photos during the Christmas School Nativity program. When DH divorced Monsignor campaigned for him to get an annulment, then wait 2 years before meeting a nice Catholic girl from the church, etc. When I showed up several times at Sunday mass a few mos after the divorce, he didn't even acknowledge me and glared at DH. After we married DH stopped taking communion at mass, and SD was upset by it, then upset at the church for that being a rule.

When my niece was baptized, there were so many disqualifying variables. They weren't married in a Catholic church and my SIL wasn't a confirmed Catholic and had been briefly married and divorced (abusive relationship.) DH was the Godfather, married me (a UU) in a UU church, and never applied for an annulment from BM. The Godmother was a practicing Catholic, but not married in the Catholic church either. AND...

They were coming from out of town to our town to do it to boot.

A friend of mine had mentioned her favorite Catholic church in my area years before and how amazing and welcoming they were and how inspiring the priest was.

And they were. They had SIL/BIL and Godmother do their classes where they lived, and DH do one at their church. They reserved 2 rows up front for us for the service, and offered our choice of a private baptism just for family then attend the service, or one in the service. (We opted for private before).

And the priest? WOW. He came in and greeted people on his way into the mass, AND stopped to greet those sitting in the row in front of us (the handicapped seating.)

One of the women sitting in front of me who was disabled said sweetly, "I love you father," And he paused, took her hand again and said sincerely, "I love you too."

It was one of the most amazing moments of grace I have ever seen. This church is in a really ugly place, off the highway out past the factories etc. Yet...

It is packed every mass. He also holds a mass in Spanish- the only one in our area.

He is a priest that was brought into heal the Catholic congregation in my small town in the early 80's after one of the Catholic churches now infamous cases where a Priest molested several boys (friends of mine who came forward about 8 or so years ago were the victims.) The case was hushed, parents paid off, and then this priest brought in to heal the congregation.

He is phenomenal. It so matters which congregation and what the philosophies of the church leaders are, no matter what the denomination or religious creed.

"Parental love is unconditional, relationships are reciprocal." ~Zen

Stick's picture

Nomorefaking.... Yeah, she's too smart sometimes. She reads a LOT and questions everything. She is taking advanced English and advanced Social Studies. She's taking chemistry this year and had also taken the SAT II for biology in 10th grade (an 11th grade test). Very smart intellectually. She's a little slow socially, but that's part of her issues.

So, in addition to becoming an armchair psychologist, I am going to start brushing up to become an armchair Theologian. God help me!

*** A rainbow just threw up on me... and now I'm sh*tting glitter! ***

Amazed's picture

So when are you going to ship that adorable little smart girl to me so I can lavish her with hugs,kisses, and spoil her rotten??? lol...seriously honey, I know she has issues right now but she's too adorable for words. When are her new school pics going to come so you can post them?

Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others. ~Buddha

lovelovelove's picture

Well, I have a question. Why does it not have a "stipulation" in the bible if you "accidentally" marry someone who is a lesbian and they hid it from you...then "she" cheated with a woman for 3 years and didn't want to work the marriage out. "She" wanted the divorce after 10 years of marriage and 2 kids.

DH and BM are both born again Christians and feel that they are both "forgiven" for all of this, even though DH was not in the wrong. He took them to counseling and wanted to save the marriage. He thought that therapy and religion may be able to "change" BM into being straight. Well, needless to say, it didn't work. And how in the world can BM be so twisted to believe that she is forgiven when she is clearly Satan at his worst and her actions prove it everyday??

Hmmm....

Love Smile

BMJen's picture

Well, as the know it all that I am, I've also read the bible from cover to cover more than six times.....I'm working on seven now.

The bible says alot of things about marriage in alot of different spots. What stands out the most to me is where it says this:

13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver [b] and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [c] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

30 A man is not to marry his father's wife; he must not dishonor his father's bed.

Okay, I know that's long but you asked. That paticular part comes from the book of Deuteronomy chapter 22.

There is more about divorce. Do you want me to post it or no? I ask because it's long and I don't want to offend anyone.

I'm really just trying to show you, and maybe you can even show your SD this, that while the bible may say certain things about certain events, after Jesus came the bible preaches by faith you are saved. Not by your deeds. If that were the case we will still have to sacrafice a peigon every time we dishonor our mothers and fathers.

BMJen's picture

Show her this part:

Deuteronomy 24
1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

Then ask the church lady, now what bitches? LOL, you know I'm kidding, but this is a verse.

Sia's picture

I have my own views of religion, but I think SD is beginning to question things and should be given the opportunity to discover whatever she wants. Sounds like you are doing that for her! Good for you!