You are here

More side effects of disengaging

Jcksjj's picture

So my not discussing anything with DH and avoiding SD for the most part and not getting involved with things that dont effect me or my son directly has had 2 effects that are irritating:

1. Husband took me not talking about her as a sign that she is all better and we are on the road to being a happy family now. Cue the gushing about SD over nothing that I have no interest in hearing. Dh cant take silence or lack of response as a hint that I'm not interested.

2. SD has come to the conclusion that she runs the house and is allowed to do whatever she wants again and answers to no one. She shares a room with my DS (which thankfully will only be for a few more months). There was a big issue for a long time with her throwing fits if he came anywhere near her stuff and if he ever asked to borrow or playing with anything the answer was always no regardless of what it was. However she thought anything of his was fair game for her to just take or have. Basically everything that's hers is hers and everything that's his is hers in her mind. So the rule is that they each ask each other before touching the others stuff and have to accept if the other says no. DS knows hes not allowed to touch any of her things even when shes gone. Well shes been taking his books again that hes in the middle of reading without asking and hiding them in her bed tent. I saw her reading one, asked if she had asked him to borrow it (theres no way he would say she coukdnt) and she gets pouty and says no. So i take it. An hour later I go back up there and she had taken the book back. I ask her if she remembered to ask him this time and she looks at me and instantly bursts into fake tears and says no. 

The only chore she had literally the entire week was me asking her to pick up her stuff on the bedroom floor so I can vacuum. Which was probably 7 of her xmas presents. Not hard for a 2nd grader to do. She says okay. I come back up and shes on her tablet and I ask why her stuff isn't picked. She stares at me with her I'm so innocent face and says I did. With all the presents still sitting on the floor right in front of us. I point it out and she goes ohhh that stuff like she had no clue what I meant. Then I come back upstairs a third time and theres STILL 3 or 4 things on the floor. She sits there acting like she has no clue what I'm asking her to do. I should've just taken the presents and put them up somewhere that she had to ask for them back. I cant stand the instant fake crying and playing dumb or moving really insanely slowly whenever shes asked to do something. Exactly the same as BM. Acts like shes just this tiny innocent little victim after being passive aggressive or doing things to provoke people. Her teachers have reported similar behaviors every year so I'm doubting it will change anytime soon.

Comments

Winterglow's picture

Your husband doesn't understand you don't want to hear about SD? Then tell him. Spell it out so that he can't not understand.

Devise rules for your home. If you have to tell your SD twice to do something then she loses a treasured toy. You should have taken away the toys that were lying on the floor and made her earn them back. Being disengaged does not mean that there are no consequences...

Jcksjj's picture

I totally agree. I was kicking myself after for giving her a reaction (which I'm sure was the point) instead of just taking them. The playing dumb and "I can do whatever I want" snotty attitude just get my blood boiling instantly. I hate passive aggressiveness and that's her MO.

Winterglow's picture

Then electro-shock her out of it by taking things away from her and showing a definite air of detachment (AKA DontGAFness). *biggrin*

dysfunctionally_blended's picture

Disengaging works - but you need the actual parent to step up and parent - or you are not disengaging just complacent.

If SD is breaking the rules your DH needs to enforce them. If she has chores and doesn't complete them your DH needs to set consequences.

As for the passive aggressive nature of her attitude - give it back! Take the things that she did not clean up. Then tell your DH that the items have been put away and you will happily give them back when the room is clean. Put it back on the parent!

And when she smirks at you, smirk back. Huge smile a little wave. When she walks around the house acting as if she has zero rules take that moment to guide your son into completing a chore and make a huge deal. Give him a snack when they normally wouldn't get one. Or hand him $5 bucks. Then smile and wave again.

Thr point is - her father needs to father. And you need to take your place back as the respected adult in the home. While putting a little girl back into her rightful spot. 

Jcksjj's picture

Taking them probably would have been the right approach. It would have at least put her in her place for the moment but unfortunately she would have won in the long run because mommy or grandma will go buy her another of whatever we took away. I have actually done the praising of my son for doing things and giving him a treat etc for it and both DH and I were convinced that would work because shes usually highly competitive with him but she just got a pissed off look on her face and dug in her heels more about not wanting to listen. The combination of only having her half the time with her personality plus both of her grandmas and mom/moms bf giving her the entire world makes her almost impossible to parent. Dh and I even took a parenting class (which was actually for my son with ADHD) and tried applying all of that to her and it all had literally the opposite effect. The only thing that works at all is occasionally a bribe but that's on a case by case basis depending on her mood or if she seems it worth it at the time. I literally have no idea what is wrong with the kid. Her teachers also seem to be at a loss with her at school and seem to give up and just glad to he able to pass her on at the end of the year so it's not even just at our house, its definitely something internal with her. I get mad at DH because he has definitely screwed up at times but then even when he is trying theres no effect. I feel bad because shes an exceptionally difficult child and alot of it is out of our hands because of who her mom is and the way GBM and MIL is. Although he does have control with MIL.

dysfunctionally_blended's picture

It is still on your DH to parent her. If he told her to put her things away and she didn't then he should have taken them away.  Doesn't matter what she gets elsewhere, at your home she doesn't have it.  

Same for her attitude, her actions etc. Putting blame on other households doesn't mean yours is off the hook. 

It isn't fun parenting a difficult kid but it has to be done. And you don't have to do it.  I would just leave when she starts. Take your son to the park, the store anywhere else. And let your DH deal with her.  

But like I said disengaging works when the parent actually parents. There is no excuse that a small child rules the home. 

Jcksjj's picture

I dont disagree. It's just much less effective with whatever we do since she knows she can run to mom and get a new one the next day anyway. She has plenty of patience despite what else she lacks. Once she is not sharing a room with my son anymore she can leave it as a gross as she wants and it's up to DH to tell her to clean it. I told her to so I could vacuum and get the cat hair off the floor so my sons allergies aren't worsened by it.

thinkthrice's picture

between the disengagement and the non-parenting parent (usually dad) starts to step up (if at all).  Most often it is not instantaneous.

I never announced my disengagement; it wouldn't be the smart thing to do since Chef has a very short fuse.   Chef wanted me to be fully involved as regards financially supporting his brood, maid service, laundress, cleaning and cooking (of course) but to keep my mouth shut on everthing else.  In other words 100% responsibility and 0% authority.  Nope doesn't work that way.  So he got aggrevated as I slowly backed off.  His attitude then became "Fine! I'll do it mysef then; it's not a problem to look after my angels."

Well he found out how exhausting it is to parent kids that have never been parented since toddlerhood, the ideal time to train and actually before then.  It's like trying to housebreak an elderly dog who was never trained as a puppy.

It took him a looooooooonng time to see a speck of light through the rose-coloured glasses he was wearing.

Jcksjj's picture

He has started to step up. The insane excuses have stopped for the most part and so has him believing her crap.  Can hear him getting pissed off at times with her too even though he tries ro hide it to me  Despite that her behavior is not changing. So on one hand I'm less pissed off at times because DH isn't catering to it but then its still so stressful and unpleasant to have her around.

thinkthrice's picture

the behaviour did NOT change when Chef started parenting.  Instead they made up stories to tell the inquiring BM (Girhippo) every time they came back from entitlement sessions errr I mean "visitation."  The BM would hold the Spanish Inquisition with leading questions similar to the way SHE was asked by HER BM (Battleaxe Galactica) when SHE came home from her dad's visitation.  "Did anything BAAAAAD happen when you were at [Chef's first name]'s house??!?" 

She even had them calling Chef by his first name to further denegrate him to non-parental status.   I'm sure you know the story as at the time the Gir was a CPS CASEWORKER!!  And she got a phoney report run up a flagpole, which I took great time and effort getting it reversed.  This killed her narrative and she went insane (even more so) with rage.

All three skids PASed out and they are now all POS thanks to the BFF type non-parenting that the Gir and her clan were doing along with the "hate your dad" narrative and Chef's attempt to compensate by becoming guilty/disneydad (on my dime)

Jcksjj's picture

Ugh yeah. I had just responded to a post below saying that's what my fear is about the future right before I read this. I think shes just going to up the ante as she gets older.

thinkthrice's picture

I would have been tempted to start vacuuming OVER the presents in front of her!  I remember asking YSS to pick up his expensive baseball equipment that was strewn all over the yard outside.  It was beginning to rain so a leather baseball mitt was not going to fare well.  He had played with these new items for about 5 seconds, then ran indoors to play vid games.  This was when dad had to cut out to do an emergency call for an hour or two and before my complete disengaging but after the two oldest had PASed out.

Me:  "YSS you need to bring in your baseball stuff."

YSS (at the time stb 7): (ignores me like I wasn't even there)

Me: "YSS it's raining and your new baseball stuff will be ruined"

YSS (shrugs not looking up from his vid game)

Me:  "It needs to be done NOW!"

YSS: "You can do it."

Me: "It's not my stuff; pause the game and bring it in now."

YSS: "Maybe after I finish this game."

Me: (pulling plug on vid game) "You'll do it NOW!"

 

Did I mention that YSS used to literally PRETEND that I wasn't there and slam into me on purpose as though he was walking through air?  I gave him a dose of his own medicine and he stopped.  He KNEW what he was doing.

P.S. Pretty much 99% of YSS's stuff was purchased with MY money because Chef was busy OVERpaying his CS to the Girhippo.  In the end I recouped some of my losses by either donating his stuff or selling it which I knew was inevitable (his older siblings had PASed out and stopped doing visitation after their CPS conspiracy with the Gir). Had to wait a sufficient amount of time though after I was sure YSS had PASed out for good so as not to offend Chef or interfere in his shrine keeping.

 

Jcksjj's picture

Omg I have a prior blog where SD shut doors on us as if she didnt notice we were there. It was obviously intentional too. The smirk after...

steppingback's picture

That was fine until he locked me out of the house when I was walking right behind him. This was when I was still ignoring this crap and I just used my key. Now if he was ever around, idI throw a fit of epic proportions.

lieutenant_dad's picture

First, I would like to commend you for taking the first big step, which is not GAF. That's rough. Now You have to move onto step two, which is doling out consequences, natural or otherwise.

Disengagement isn't the same as complacency. What it is is realizing you have no control over the situation, but you DO have control over the consequences.

Like you already realized, when SD doesn't pick up her toys, you do it and take them away. She takes DS's book without asking, you buy him a locking bookshelf that all his things go in that she can't access. She doesn't do her chores and they don't need to be done right now, you may DH until they get done. Over and over again.

Will it destory your marriage? Maybe. Really, though, all it is doing is destroying it faster than it was being destroyed before. That is the big fear people have - that disengagement will end their marriage. Well, what will engagement do? The same thing, but you'll (general) be driven mad in the process and the lightbulb moment won't be until you've expended all your time and energy.

I don't think your marriage is over or anything, but what I am saying is don't be afraid to get mad at your husband for not parenting when it impacts you, and don't be afraid for doling out natural consequences for when SD acts like a brat. Just make sure that you apply the natural consequences rule equally. If your DS does the same things as SD, he needs to be punished the same. 

I have slowly been disengaging as I realize I have no real control. However, you best believe that my DH and my SSs suffer consequences when their piss-poor behavior impacts me. My DH feels the brunt of it because his "ideal" is we all act as family. When I don't get treated as family, I don't act as family, and that hurts him. It's not a perfect system, but it has prevented a lot of unnecessary arguments and hurt feelings over BS that is really his and BM's responsibility.

Jcksjj's picture

Thanks for the advice. I'm more worried about the future as far as my marriage is concerned than now. My big fear is her accusing myself DH or my son of some type of abuse or neglect. MIL is constantly claiming DH neglects SD over ridiculous things such as her only getting 2 birthday celebrations (and one at BMs house on top of it) and omg having to share the bigger one (a trip 4 hours away) with her step brother because they have bdays close together. MIL wants control over SD and uses DH not being a good enough parent as her excuse why she needs to step in and take over everything. SD already knows this and plays it to her advantage. Claims she doesnt have enough clothes so that MIL will buy her more when in reality she has so many she never wears most of them etc. Since then shes tried that with teachers, BM, GBM, even told DH i hadn't fed her supper once when she had just got done eating. Alot of times it works for her especially with people not close to the situation so she keeps doing it. I'm afraid that as she gets older there will be a bigger accusation and I dont think I would have much choice other than leaving the marriage if she were to accuse me or my son of something big. Right now though i do think it gets to be an issue because its hard to be a team with my husband when we both have such strong feelings about SD in opposite ways. And it sucks because that's almost the only thing we fight about.

lieutenant_dad's picture

Nanny cams. As much as it sucks to have to do that, get some nanny cams and put them around your house. That way, when SD lies, you have proof of it.

Don't put them in private locations, like bedrooms or bathrooms, but hallways, living room, kitchen, etc. Do what you need to do to keep you and your son safe.

Jcksjj's picture

When we move they will have bedrooms across from each other in the basement so I was thinking putting one in the hallway would be a good idea. I wish they went to different schools also or at least weren't in the same grade since I've gotten the impression that she tells lies about him there also both to other kids and teachers.

tog redux's picture

But - none of what you wrote says disengaged.

Disengaged would be leaving the room cleaning to DH and SD to take care of.

Jcksjj's picture

That was literally the only thing I told her to do the entire week was move her stuff so I could vacuum because it's also my sons room. Getting alot of mixed messages on disengagement...some people say to do nothing at all ever and some say yes if it affects you (which it does in this case since again its also my sons room and needed to be vacuumed so there isn't cat hair all over) then you give them instructions, discipline etc. My personal opinion is having to wait until DH gets back from the store to have her pick up some gifts off the floor is going to cause issues. I feel like not being able to do something that simple is a huge issue for me. I agree with others  that asking once and taking the stuff myself would have been the best option.

tog redux's picture

OK, that's fine if it works for you - but why would it cause issues?

I never parented at all, period. I didn't need to, DH did it just fine himself. If he had told SS to pick up stuff off the floor (or heard me ask him) so I could vacuum, and he came back and found out he didn't, he would have taken care of the situation without my asking.

So, to me, you having to repeatedly ask SD to do something is parenting - and not disengaged.

Jcksjj's picture

Do you have bio kids or an ours baby though? If I didnt I would 100 percent go your route. The reality is since theres other kids with this and with other times it's less realistic to be absolutely 100 percent disengaged. In this case because it's also my sons room and it just happened to be a time when YDS was sleeping and I had an opportunity to vacuum and wanted to get it done. Having DH take her to the store would have been an option I suppose but then I would have still had to pick her stuff up to get it done at that time which isnt totally disengaged. Keeping up on housework with a baby is nearly impossible as is without having to constantly think about staying a step ahead of SD or working around her.

tog redux's picture

OK, then I would have picked up her stuff myself, thrown it on her bed so I could vacuum and let DH know when he returned. He would then give her a consequence.

The key here is that DH has to get involved at some point - either with the cleaning, or with a consequence for not doing her chore.  If he didn't want to give her a consequence, fine - don't. But I'd still get the vacuuming done by throwing her stuff on the bed and doing it.

You have to let go of trying to get SD to do anything, even if you think she should. Yes, she should pick up her toys herself, but if she won't - then what? Disengaging means you don't care, you just want to do what you need to do - vacuum.

Jcksjj's picture

Yeah hes stepping up some so he doesnt have to face my wrath but usually if it doesnt affect him he let's it go so she doesnt tell him that she likes her mommy's house better. When she lied at school and made him look bad he sure cared about that though.

Jcksjj's picture

I think the bigger issue i have is letting her snotty attitude get to me. I could care less if she is responsible enough to pick up after herself but the playing dumb and acting oh so innocent with the little smirk on her face makes me irate. It so obvious she thinks shes smarter than everyone else and when she has thought shes tricked me by lying before (which actually hadnt) she was over the moon with rubbing it in my face. I need to figure out how to let go of caring about her attitude towards people.

tog redux's picture

Yes, exactly - but as long as you are trying to get her to do it, she will employ the snotty attitude.  So ask her once, then pick it up yourself, toss it somewhere (closet, bed, whatever) and do what you have to do.

simifan's picture

I would have only vacuumed sons sidside of the room. When SD tattles on you to Daddy, look confused and befuttled. "But DH she wouldn't pick up her stuff that I asked her too. Should I have vacuumed over it? Surely you don't want me to encourage her to ignore authority figures by enabling her? "

Jcksjj's picture

Good idea but it's not a big room and I wanted the cat hair/pet dander gone so my sons allergies arent worse at night. I cant wait until we move so they have separate rooms. She wouldn't have tattled either...shes fine living in filth like at BMs. Seems to prefer it actually.

Cover1W's picture

It will take time, lots of time.  It took several years - years! - for my DH to get it.  And he still sometimes doesn't.

I never talked about "disengagement" per se, just what I wouldn't stand for and how I was going to handle it. Mostly major things like stopping doing their laundry, making sure living room/kitchen were cleaned, no more paying for extracurriculars if I didn't have a say in attendance or days/times, etc.  I didn't get into the details like if the shared areas weren't cleaned in 24 hours then anything left out was either thrown away or donated and DH had to purchase replacements (yes, this included dishes/serving ware).  Or I wouldn't ever touch older SDs room again unless I could smell it from the hallway (and that did happen several times) and then I would clean-slate it MY way, no discussion.

Keep doing what you are doing with your DH, not getting involved "that's nice" or "that's good" is enough. Continue this.

Your SD is young.  That makes it more difficult.  However, she needs to learn.  I would have addressed the book with her once, clearly.  It happens again, no more discussion you put the book back.  A third time, put away something of hers that she can earn back.  That doesn't work?  Locks.

As for cleaning her side, because they share a room - throw all her stuff into a box/bin then vacuum.  She puts it away, or your DH, not you. 

 

Jcksjj's picture

The bin isn't a bad idea. Usually I just set stuff on her bed if they're not home. I hate when both her and my son are there though because I expect him to pick up his stuff so it's a double standard between the 2. Putting both of their stuff in bins though to put away could help solve that some though. If she doesnt put hers away dad can make her later and it doesnt get in my way

Cover1W's picture

As my older SD got older the box/closet became trash bags.  She still didn't care, but it was easier for me to get rid of that way. 

If your son puts away his stuff then he doesn't need a bin though - that's not a double-standard but he understands the expectations and meets them.  Don't let him slack because your SD doesn't want to. 

I suspect your SDs bin will remain full and eventually overflow.  Then you can set additional expectations (if bin is too full of stuff she obviously doesn't care about or use, then any overflow will go to charity) for her.

Jcksjj's picture

SD would totally take me putting her stuff into a bin for her and not him as confirmation that the rules dont apply to her and that shes special. Shes looking for validation of that belief anywhere and everywhere and will throw it in his face. Probably I'll have him pick up when shes not here as much as possible but omg is it annoying to have to work around her crap so much. Unfortunately there is absolutely no way DH would be onboard with her stuff going to charity either. Hes gotten better with the Disney dad thing but hes definitely not to that point - then she will go cry to grandma and mommy that she needs new stuff because we threw hers away and DH doesnt have the balls to be that much of the bad guy yet.

Cover1W's picture

Wait, don't tell them what you are doing with the stuff!  Give them one warning - "...if no one picks up x by such-and-such time I will assume no one cares about it and take matters on myself.  I will not ask twice."

People know my rules and that's enough.  I never told anyone where stuff went or why.  If something was missing and they asked me (rare) then 'the last time I saw it it was near the couch' and that was that.

If your DH and SD actually do keep track of the stuff, then maybe just put it in the garage/storage or something.  What's wrong with your DH that if your SD has so much stuff and she doesn't care about it that some things can go to kids who might need it or appreciate it.  It's a good lesson.  Both my SDs learned that.

Jcksjj's picture

It's very unlikely that she would ask where it is actually. Unless it's her tablet. That's really the only thing she cares about. What's wrong with DH is that he will go all guilty daddy and then if SD does cry about it MIL will get involved and start berating him. He actually was on board with deciding not to buy her anything extra for now because anything we buy she sticks her nose up at and then has BM buy her a "better" version of whatever it is and refuses to touch what we bought. Clothes, her backpack, hair accessories etc. I was really surprised he was on the same page with that so maybe he would surprise me again. 

The charity thing - yeah. I said before Christmas that a donated toy from her to a kid in need would be the perfect gift. We did buy her actual gifts of course but I wasnt really joking. She ends up getting 40 to 50 gifts altogether from both sides of her family plus my family and she doesnt actually appreciate a thing. Its disgusting. My mom got the kids personalized Disney sweatshirts and she was thrilled until she saw the other kids also got one and not just her and then she was all pissy and I'm sure will never wear it.

thinkthrice's picture

for your own self preservation and sanity.  Out of earshot of DH make it known to SD that you are in fact in charge.  When she tattles just say "Oh kids say the darndest things!!"  Act surprised.    I had to use self preservation tactics because even with disengaging, I had to look out for myself.  I knew it was only a matter of time before abuse allegations would occur since they practically got away with lying to CPS to "make mommy happy"   Had I not been there to get it reversed as there was ZERO evidence but we all know when it comes to NCP dad, you are guilty until proven innocent, Chef would have been in total hot water.

I would NEVER be with them when Chef wasn't within a 100 yard range.  I did get to do a Nanny 911 on YSS one time.  He was actually BEHAVING and playing independently by the end of the day, then Guilty Daddy Chef came back and YSS instantly reverted to baby-like behaviour.  He never "allowed me the privilege of child care" again.  LOL  Honestly I don't know how you ladies do it it with children of similiar ages to these entitled skids!

Jcksjj's picture

Its amazing how helpless they are when guilty daddy is around. To be fair, shes only in 2nd grade and probably needs to start with a much simpler chore than picking objects up and setting them down in a different place. Eye roll.

thinkthrice's picture

he used to be all "coochie coo" when it came to kids, viewing them as dress up dolls and not potential adults that need training. 

The other day we were at a local tavern and this very hyperactive boy, about 6 or 7 was acting a fool.  Of course his lenient 29-something parents were oblivious until he started shrieking for attention.  Chef was outraged!  Normally he would have tuned that out especially when his own ferals acted that way and much worse.

He's done a 180!

Jcksjj's picture

Hmm well I just left the 20 something age group a couple weeks ago, but my husband is still part of it being a year younger than me so maybe that's the problem *biggrin* 

I see that alot with people not realizing they are raising kids that will turn into adults. Also people that think being a good parent is making sure their child is never upset in the moment even though some things are necessary to teach them to be resilient adults.