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At what age should skids decide on where to spend holidays?

HappyCow's picture

Our custody agreement is that ever other year we split Thanksgiving and Christmas. This year would be BM's year to have her for Christmas break. BM is also entitled to every other weekend. However, SD17 now drives and has been deciding on her own when to visit her BM. Sometimes she misses a couple of weekends and sometimes she will go two weekends in a row. DH and I don't really care just as long as she lets us know when she is going.

Every year my Dad and Step Mom throw a heck of a Christmas Eve party and on Christmas Day we do brunch with my Mom and then do Chinese and a movie later in the day. My family has always treated SD17 as their own and are really the only grandparents she has ever known. SD17 has decided that she wants to stay with us on Christmas Eve/Day and drive to her BM the day after. SD17 told her BM this last weekend when she was at her home.

BM is now blowing up DH's phone talking about the custody agreement and how we can't take away her Christmas. We haven't responded yet because we want to speak with SD17 first to find out what exactly she said to her BM.

What are your thoughts? BM is a piece of crap but it is Christmas and I would be hurt if my kid didn't want to spend it with me but at the same time SD17 will be 18 in a few months and for the past 8 months has been deciding on visitation herself. I should also point out that BM rarely does a Christmas dinner and in the past has just told SD17 that she would take her to the mall to pick out her gifts.

Comments

nengooseus's picture

I was just wondering the same thing in reference to my bio-daughter. She has strong preferences about where she'd like to be, but I don't know that she'll be willing to express that to her dad. This year is taken care of, but I don't know about going forward...

WalkOnBy's picture

When my kids were driving age, they still followed the parenting plan. They were never allowed to choose. The parenting time belongs to the parent, not the child.

HappyCow's picture

Thanks everyone. It's not that we purposely planned something with SD17 to spite her BM. This is what we do every year. If BM wants to get technical she is two months behind on CS so we could take her back to court. Smile We know that there is no way that she would take us to court this close to 18 and graduation. I think it is more of a nail in the coffin to BM and loosing her grip on SD17. I really don't think she would care at all missing the holiday but it the fact that SD17 is finally starting to make her own decisions and growing a lot more independent. These are just my thoughts from the sidelines. I am staying out of it. May cannot come soon enough for all of this to end.

HappyCow's picture

No we are not holding a 17 year old hostage because her dead beat BM can't pay on time and never has.

We are not going to have both sets of my parents and extended family change their plans for Christmas because it disrupts BM parenting plan. This is the same thing we have been doing for the past 10 years.

We have not put BM in a bad position she put herself there of being such a shit mom for the past 17 years that her own daughter decided to move in full time with us and has decided that she doesn't want to spend Christmas in a flea infested trailer.

Disneyfan's picture

Yup, you sound like a crazy BM.

There's no need for your family to change their plans. Your SD should be with her mom, and the rest of you can go on with the plans that are in place.

WalkOnBy's picture

You totally sound like a GUBM.

I agree with the others above me.

Why on EARTH are you letting a child make these kinds of decisions?

You are engaging in alienation.

I just. I can't even...

Totalybogus's picture

I get what you're saying. This is something you do every year, and your SD would rather participate in that tradition then go to her mothers. I think that because SD will soon be 18, you guys should tell her that you understand she would rather be with guys for Christmas and you guys really would like her to be there, but it is the year she is supposed to be with her mother and she should go. She will be able to make her own decisions next year.

DaizyDuke's picture

I agree with this....she can suck up this one year, stay with her mother and if she chooses to do your family thing for the next 40 years, then as an adult that is her choice. Frankly, I don't understand why BM is causing such a fuss? I can honestly say that if DH and I were separated at BS wanted to be with DH and his family on Christmas because they were doing something fun and special and we were not, that I would be sad, but I wouldn't act like a selfish bitch and ruin BS fun by not allowing him to go with his dad. I don't think it's "letting the kid call the shots" I think its compromise. So BM doesn't see SD on Christmas day??? It's a damn day on the calendar. They can celebrate Christmas on the 26th or the 24th or whenever!! These kinds of arguments are so freaking stupid to me.

whoaminow's picture

I agree with babybugged. SD17 has been deciding where she wants to stay since she moved in with us even before she got her drivers license. The CO has it split 50/50 but she don't want to go to her BM 50/50. Now I would love for her too but I know how her mother is. I made her start going one weekend a month. For Christmas she has always just went to where she could go. For the past 2 years she has stayed with us on Christmas eve but she said the other day she thought she was going to spend the night at her mothers. That's fine, we will have Christmas at our house on Eve and she is going to be there for that and then go stay with her mother all night. At 17 and even younger they are old enough to know what they want to do. No, I don't think they should just come and go and have the run of the house but they are almost an adult.

Happycow, maybe she can come to your families for a little while on Christmas Eve and then go to her mothers. It's hard to make a kid live every minute according to the CO. Everyone needs to be able to have some common sense and work out the times with what is going on.

hereiam's picture

No, these are OP's parent's plans, that they do every year on the same dates and SD wants to be a part of it. OP didn't do this on purpose, nor can she change the dates.

My DH gave in to SD all of the time when it came to holidays because we didn't do anything with DH's family and BM's family always had large get-togethers, with all of SD's cousins and such.

Just J's picture

So you're still sticking by the statement that the OP's parents should change a Christmas Eve tradition to accommodate the BM? And that somehow the OP planned this on purpose? Planned to have her parents throw an annual party on a recognized holiday? Just want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying because that sounds like utter bullsh-t.

WalkOnBy's picture

No - OP's parents are free to do whatever they want on Christmas Eve. OP should tell them that SD won't be there because it's not her father's time with SD.

No one is saying anything about what OP's parents should do. It's about what SD should do.

The tradition will still go on if SD isn't there. The world is not going to end.

SM12's picture

That is such crap and you know it. The poster clearly said it is the same tradition every year. There was no dangling anything in SD's face. The fact that this girl wants to spend a traditional family Christmas vs spending time at the mall is the child decision at the age of 17. Of course BM is going to throw a fit....she wants the SD with her. But at this age...the girl can decide for herself and you cannot force a 17 yr old to go somewhere they don't want to me.
What is the SM supposed to do?? Refuse to allow her at the family gathering.

Get a damn grip...Stop bullying the poster with your ignorant twisting of what she is saying.

The SD is 17...not 12. She drives herself to and from. She can decide.
You are just ruining this sight with your bullying and obnoxious behavior.

Just J's picture

Who said anyone was dangling the plans in the SD's face? SD is a big girl, she knows about the party, she wants to go. Unless the BM wants to try to physically drag an almost adult to her house, kicking and screaming, I think the BM just needs to concede the holiday. Even with court order in hand and a police officer, no one is forcing a 17 year old into visitation. I think everyone is making way too big a deal about this. This girl is 17, not 7. Why can't BM just celebrate another day, if it's "just another day" as you keep saying? The OP even said BM doesn't do much, why can't she not do much the day after?

I do agree this is between the BM and the SD and dad needs to reply with a short and sweet, "This is between you and SD" and leave it at that. But the bottom line is that no one can force this girl to go and if she wants to spend the holiday with her dad, that is her choice and she needs to work it out with her mom. I don't think the OP is being crazy BM at all. On the contrary, I think BM freaking out about this is making her the crazy one.

Journey1984's picture

"my parents moved their Christmas Eve party every other year because the skids weren't going to be able to attend because it was BM's time. It's possible to co-parent when people want to."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Since when does the grandparents have to co-parent with their grandchildren parents? I think you are misunderstanding whose party this really is. Or do you rule your parents in such a way that you tell them what to do and when to have their party and expect others to do the same??

Journey1984's picture

moving_on - "We changed my parents Christmas plans..." So you dictated to your parents what their Christmas plans were?

Journey1984's picture

I only quoted what YOU said Moving_on. You said "WE CHANGED MY parents Christmas plans..." I'm not acting like the OP is Jesus, but you are reading more into the OPs post then what is really there. I swear this site needs a moderator sometimes. You claimed OP "dangled" the plan; you are the one who claimed that "the OP and Dad are teaching this child to crap on people when they get a "better offer" and many other claims that are unsubstantiated. The Christmas tradition is one that has been going on for many years. I'm sure OPs SD is fully aware of the tradition and probably loves going, so stop blaming the OP because her SD made a decision on her own. You can tell a 17 year old all day long that she must go to her mother's house for Christmas, but in the end, the 17 year old will do what she wants. Sure you can punish her if she fails to go; sure you can take away her car, etc. but for how long do you withhold things or keep her on punishment? You are the one who is interjecting details, putting words in the OPs mouth and passing judgment.

Just J's picture

What? They purposely planned Christmas and Christmas Eve to screw the BM? Did you really just say that? So the OP should change the dates of HOLIDAYS to accommodate the BM? Really?

I'm going to be the dissenting opinion here but at 17, this close to 18, I think the court order goes out the window. How many times have we seen on here that most judges will not enforce visitation at that age? I'm sure BM is upset about it but sorry, that's life! Kids grow up and make friends and their own lives and can't be ruled by a piece of paper anymore. I understand for younger teens but for one that old, so close to emancipation, mom needs to just suck it up. What does she want to do, FORCE an almost adult to spend Christmas with her? Sounds delightful!

I guess my DH was just more easy going than most. His son still visited EOW until 18 because he didn't have much of a social life and SD was only 14 so he came with her, but SD became a social butterfly around 15 and DH understood that she didn't want to spend entire weekends with ANY parent anymore, and let her come when she wanted to. Sometimes she'd come for a weekend or sometimes just a day. It was up to her because she had friends and boyfriends and activities and he wasn't going to be a douche and insist on following the CO just because he could. He knows his kids love him and won't forget about him or stop liking him just because he doesn't spend every holiday with them. Now they're both adults and their mother still gives them sh-t about EVERYTHING, but since DH has been flexible, they WANT to spend time with him and don't feel guilted into it.

Disneyfan's picture

Child support and visitation are not the same. A CP can not jerk around a NCP(or pretend that it's the child's decision :sick: )No matter how much CS the NCP owes.

You're playing the same slick game many spiteful BMs play.

HappyCow's picture

I never said we are withholding visitation because BM doesn't pay her CS. SD17 doesn't even know that her BM hasn't paid in two months. This whole thing has nothing to do with CS. All I was asking was for other peoples thoughts on the situation. We do not in anyway let SD17 know what goes on with CS.

WalkOnBy's picture

You didn't say it, but you sure are trying to use it as a rationalization.

Follow the CO, then you don't run into these problems.

Be prepared for the day that SD stops drinking your Kool-Aid and starts drinking BM's again.

This WILL come back to bite you in the ass.

Maxwell09's picture

Any other time I would say 18, but since both your DH and BM have been letting her do what she wants thus far I don't understand how it matters now. You can't let her do what she wants one week and then tell her she can't decide for herself the next. It doesn't work like that and honestly your DH is going to get the backlash if he makes her go. Sure it's hurtful she'd rather be with y'all but BM isn't really investing her time by letting her skip so many weekends anyway. I have a feeling since your SD drives she'll end up doing whatever she wants regardless if your DH sticks his neck out for BM (would she even do the same if it were reversed) so he should just tell SD that her mom has more to say on the subject and they need to work it out.

MineAndYours's picture

I'm from Canada and any time after the age of 16 the child can decide where they want to live..or visit. CO regarding visitation is practically void as they can legally leave at any time and there isn't a thing you can do.

hereiam's picture

I'd say this is between SD and BM. SD is 17, if she doesn't want to drive to BM's until the day after, I don't know how BM can make her.

If it's really what SD wants to do, what are you going to do? Refuse to let her be a part of the festivities at your family's? I doubt it.

WalkOnBy's picture

but the thing is, when there is a parenting plan in place, THAT is what needs to be followed. My kids would rather have stayed at my house instead of going to their dad's, but they went. Because it was HIS time. Not mine, and not theirs.

When there is a parenting plan in place that spells out who gets what holidays, no parent should be planning super fun stuff on the other parent's time.

The decision does not belong to the child. It just doesn't.

WalkOnBy's picture

they didn't even have to change the plans. Just needed to acknowledge that SD would be with her mom.

You know. Because parenting plan Smile

WalkOnBy's picture

No one is saying that OP's parents have to rearrange plans.

"We would be happy to come. SD will be with her mom, however."

THAT'S how it needs to go.

When kids have divorced parents, folks often don't get what they want. I don't know why the whole world has to stop because a skid can't attend an event.

WTF...REALLY's picture

She was referring to moving on saying the plans should change. That's what I was replying to as well. I agree, the world needs to go on even though step kids can't attend an event.

WTF...REALLY's picture

And that's their choice. Good on them for wanting to do that. But it doesn't make other grandparents bad people because they would like to celebrate their annual traditions on the day like the rest of the country is.

WTF...REALLY's picture

In no way should the grand parents change their annual Christmas party plans. It sounds like a lot of people attend it annually.

Sweet T's picture

So are you saying that this woman's family should not celebrate Christmas on Christmas because the SD might want to attend an event they are holding??? That is crazy.

I agree that you spend all that money on a decree so you should follow it. Trust me I do, because the moment you give an inch the loon takes a mile and throws in abuse for free.

I am gonna throw this in, that the NCP needs to make an effort to have a good relationship with their child. I am not talking kissing your kids butt but being a real parent and talking with them, fostering a relationship where your kid wants quality time with you. As a step mom I used to tell my ex husband when we were married, pay attention to your kids and set the tone for the relationship you want to have... don't lay on the couch in a stupor.

Sweet T's picture

So are you saying that this woman's family should not celebrate Christmas on Christmas because the SD might want to attend an event they are holding??? That is crazy.

I agree that you spend all that money on a decree so you should follow it. Trust me I do, because the moment you give an inch the loon takes a mile and throws in abuse for free.

I am gonna throw this in, that the NCP needs to make an effort to have a good relationship with their child. I am not talking kissing your kids butt but being a real parent and talking with them, fostering a relationship where your kid wants quality time with you. As a step mom I used to tell my ex husband when we were married, pay attention to your kids and set the tone for the relationship you want to have... don't lay on the couch in a stupor.

HappyCow's picture

Wow, I had no idea that this would cause such a storm.

As much as I would like to defend myself against being called a GUBM or guilty of PAS I'm not going to. I did ask for everyone's opinion and have been and will continue to be open to them. I try not to take things personally even though I do feel myself getting stirred up. The truth is that no one knows my family, my husband, or my SD17 personally. Each of us has their own personal stories and situations that shape our views on different step family issues.

FrenchPeas's picture

Happy Cow, consider the source - as my grandmother used to say. Consider the source.

FrenchPeas's picture

Happy Cow, consider the source - as my grandmother used to say. Consider the source.

WTF...REALLY's picture

It's a tough one. After all, it's Christmas. I think she should go to BMs. It sounds like it will be the last time. But she is 17, she should talk to her mom directly about it. But I would encourage her to go, even though it does not sound as fun. Bad parenting has a price. My ex loses his kids attention more and more as the years go by. My daughter is 22 and wants nothing to do with him. My 16 year old son is losing interest as well. I stay out of it. Ex digs his own grave.

onwednesdayswewearpink's picture

At 17 I would let her pick. She's damn near an adult, she can decide where she wants to be.

onwednesdayswewearpink's picture

Right. For all we know her and mom sit at the house and stare at the tv the whole time. It sounds like dad and sms party is a lot of fun, who wouldn't want to go? Ffs she's 17, I'm sure this isn't the only adult decision she's making in her life.

Just J's picture

Oh please, dramatic much? No one is going to jail over a 17 year old not visiting her NCP for Christmas.

HappyCow's picture

I just want to clarify that SD17 did go to her BM with this request. There are a lot of assumptions going on on here.

fakemommy's picture

Whoa I feel like I'm the only one who read the entire post.

This is a tough situation. First, it is absolutely RIDICULOUS that anyone on here is acting like your entire family should rearrange their traditions to accommodate the CO. It sounds like these traditions have been in place for quite some time, so I don't know why you are being blamed or being called names here.

As far as SD goes. I think you and DH should tell her you understand her wanting to be with you guys on Christmas, but to consider her BM as well. BM has put herself in a tough position by allowing SD to visit whenever, so it is pretty unfair of her to change her mind about that now. I'd try to help SD come up with a compromise with her mom for the holidays and go from there. It will be hard for SD to know the "right" thing to do, but after this year, it will truly always be her decision.

HappyCow's picture

Goodness this is very heated.

Let me try to clear up a few things. BM's text to my DH was along the lines of "this is supposed to be my Christmas with SD17 but she is saying she wants to stay with you" and "according to our custody agreement this is my year". I just had DH read them to me. There have been three texts in total and the last one was that she will see if SD17 will come on Christmas Day. SD17 talked to BM about this last weekend and there was no drama when this came up according to SD17.

SD17 is a good skid. She was just accepted to a University in our state that is only 45 minutes away from BM. That was one of selling points for her that she would be allowed to go see her BM whenever she wanted. SD17 has a job and a great GPA.

DH and BM since she has gotten her license have let SD17 work out visitation. I honestly believe that this works best for everyone. There are some weekends that SD17 had a cheer competition or had to work both weekend days and wouldn't go. There was a full week off of school that technically was ours but she wanted to spend the week with her BM and we let her. Yes, technically it was against the CO but it worked out for everyone and we didn't make a bid deal about it. So yes, we do allow her to make her own decisions.

Yes, this is Christmas and yes we do have a CO in place. A lot of people are commenting about how I hate BM (which is true) and I have poisoned SD17 against her BM. That is simply not the case in which you can believe me or not but I saw the damage that was done by BM spreading hate about DH and I so even though it is hard at times I keep my mouth shut.

I think that each situation is different. No, I am not going to ask my parents and extended family to change their Christmas Eve party. There have been years that SD17 has missed it but this year she decided on her own that she wanted to join us. We never said that she has to do it one way or the other.

My DH and I are not jerks and are not PASSING against her BM (even though reading my heated responses may make you think that). SD17 and her BM are the best ones to sort this out. It doesn't matter to us either way. No matter what SD17 and BM decide on its between them at this point. She is 17 almost 18. No one including her BM is going to be able to force her to do something that she doesn't want to do.

WTF...REALLY's picture

You sound like a very lovely lady with a good head on your shoulders. Have fun at the big party. Smile

HappyCow's picture

So you are saying that we don't make her go to her Mom but "sorry you aren't invited to the family Christmas Eve party who are for all purposes your family too for the past 15 years". That makes no sense

Just J's picture

Yes, apparently if your SD refuses to go to her mom's, she should sit at home all alone on Christmas in order to learn some kind of lesson about custody agreements and not taking a better offer. Jesus Christ what am I reading here???

FrenchPeas's picture

Yep, that's what you're reading. A CO is there for LAST resort. It means folks can't get their crap together and be decent. Guess what, these folks appear to be decent and able to work it out.

twoviewpoints's picture

I think that Dad needs to talk with his daughter. Just an informal chitchat about relationships and becoming adults. While the young lady is use to splitting the holiday (one house one year, the other house the next), this is a very first of potentially making her own decision. Having these types of decision making powers can and does affect others.

Does SD truly intend to cut Mom off totally for Christmas? How does SD think Mom will feel if that is the case? Is SD planning to select together alternate celebration time (example, spend the weekend with Mom)? Does implementing the weekend plan with Mom, mean Mom ends up trying to reschedule grandma and Uncle Joe at Mom's house? Does it mean Mom will be all alone? Should SD perhaps consider skipping the movie and Chinese and go to Mom's midday?

Dad can talk to her honestly about how he would feel if shoe were on other foot. No, not guilt tripping. Just helping his daughter come to her first adult like decisions process taking all things into consideration. Life is changing for SD, it's changing for her parents and all Dad can really ask of his daughter is that she carefully gives consideration to all decisions she now finds herself facing as the young lady she is becoming. That's all he can do. It's all any parent can do when our children aren't children anymore. We have to let them go and watch them become the young adults they are (a 1/2 year is close enough)

stepinhell617's picture

She needs to go to her mom. This is the last year and that is the court order- if SD and BM directly work something out then great but the default needs to be follow the holiday schedule.

Sweet T's picture

The problem is both mom & dad have set this situation in motion. You can't allow someone to do something and then when it doesn't suit you bitch and complain about it.

My ex husband told my former step son who is 18 and a senior that he did not have to come over for the weekends any more but that he needed to come down and visit on Sundays. That works great for ex as then he doesn't have to drive the 15 year old home to his mothers.He doesn't give the kid money for gas for the 60 mile round trip either. Now for Christmas that decree says he gets the two teenage boys Christmas eve night until 8am on Christmas day. He has never made them stay overnight and BM1 was always good about letting them stay the night of the 23rd and then we had them home by 9 or 10pm Christmas eve. This year he emails her stating that he wants them over night on the 23rd but the kids don't want to come till the afternoon of the 24th. There is no bed for SS18 since ex moved to his GF's and he has given the 18 who has to do the driving the promise of no overnights. When BM responded because he emailed her not the kids this he got nasty with her and said she was taking advantage of his good will and he could make them stay overnight on the 24th and prevent them from serving midnight mass on Christmas eve because of the decree.

To me this is a great example of you tell the kids that they can do one thing until it doesn't suit you and then you get nasty.

My decree says that he gets from 9am xmas eve to 9pm. Last year I let him take BS8 the night before and then he brought him home late at 10 pm. My decree says that I have to pick BS up and I unfortunatly did that to myself never thinking he would move 45 minutes away and because he is always late. In the begining before things got really combative with him he used to drop BS off now we follow it to the T.This year he asked to have him on the 23rd using the excuse that his parents are in town... they are not going to be there until the afternoon of the 24th anyways but I am a reasonable person so I said yes but only if he brought him home. He agreed, but it will not surprise me if he screws me over at 9pm on Christmas eve... and then it will never happen again.

ItsGrowingOld's picture

I have no opinion. It sounds like your SD has a really good head on her shoulders Smile

Here's something that has stuck to me for a decade. When DH's youngest daughter wanted an extra overnight with him when she was 8, BM emphatically said no! I could see the sadness in her eyes Sad I said to her "it must be hard when you want to be with your mom and your dad and can't." I was trying to acknowledge her feelings and get her to open up. This is what she said in response "I wish my mom and dad lived in the same neighborhood so I could see both of them every day." She's a very intelligent girl (tested 140 IQ at age 16). I think her answer was simple and brilliant.

FrenchPeas's picture

The b*tchiness is strong in this thread. And no one is reading what the OP has clearly stated.

Lmao. Let the kid do what she wants. My daughter did at that age and I am not a GUBM. Kids grow up. The CO is no more than a guideline for folks who can't get along. Otherwise you're free to work out a schedule that you like. A judge won't waste their time and the BM will take a slap for being behind on CS.

Let the girl do as she wishes. Otherwise, why don't you handcuff her, throw her In The car and dump her at her mother's. The GOORIOUS CO MUST BE FOLLOWED. Half the folks saying they did, didn't. No one always does. Duh.

And no. Your family shouldn't rearrange what's been done for 10 years because of this.

What a bunch of bull.

HappyCow's picture

Just a small update.

SD17 and BM worked it out so she will be driving to her BM's house on Saturday and staying the entire week. No, this is not in the court order and yes we let her make this decision herself. SD17 had BM on speaker phone so DH could hear the conversation. Yes-she knew she was on speaker phone. BM was totally 100% fine with it and even mentioned how much she appreciates my family never treating her any different. BM was just upset earlier because she thought SD17 wasn’t going to see her at all and now they get to spend New Years Eve together which apparently even better because somehow there are fire works involved. (Sorry, I stopped listening to the entire conversation after I heard her say she was fine with the change and only half listened)

I want to thank those of you that stood up for me not being a GUBM or passing my SD17. I let DH see all of the remarks this afternoon and he has a way better sense of humor then I do and laughed at some of the things said. He is a lot more secure in his parenting than I am.

DH and I are trying to raise an independent smart women who is able to make her own choices even if they are bad ones. How else does a kid learn that they can recover or learn when they are being told what to do at all times of their lives but then magically one day we expect them to be functioning adults?

twoviewpoints's picture

Yay! Everybody happy and no hurt feelings.

Have a great Christmas and Mom and daughter ringing in the New Year with fireworks too. Smile