Feral Eldest & her toxic rant last night
So this is long, and tedious, but I just dont know what to do.
Last night I was hanging out with Munchkin SD12, she was happy and chatting. then she brought up the topic of "who comes first in the family". She is being taught in school that "the children should ALWAYS come first". I disagreed, and told her that the family unit's #1 responsibility is the children, but that the spouses first consideration is the relationship with the spouse. I tried defining between WANTS and NEEDS, but she didnt hear me.
She got very upset, and the first thing she did was contact Feral Eldest, Toxic Feral Eldest is an echo of her mother. Lies, cheats, steals, and takes the truth, and any information she knows about things, and twists it into what she wants to believe. So DH gets a series of long texts from Toxic Feral Eldest, saying that he lost her and he will lose the younger one too. That Munchkin feels like she has no voice and isnt valued because I come first. She said that Munchkin doesnt like me anyway, and was upset that we got married. Toxic Feral Eldest told DH that he chose me over her and thats why she doesnt have a relationship with him. She accused me of bullying her. I did yell a few times. She screamed at me, and was disrespectful and I stood up to her. Never insulted her, never did anything else, but since I yelled at her, a few times in a few years, I am a bully. Forget about all the times I was really good to her. Forget about me getting her 1400$ cash in the bank for taxes. Forget about my attempts to bring everyone together on family outings, cooking for her, cleaning up after her, gifts.
Then she texted DH that at least her mother, ToxicTroll is always THERE for her and puts her children first (is that why ToxicTroll missed 2 of her birthdays for dudes? Why ToxicTroll broke up the entire family for dudes online? Because she puts her children first? Kept her boyfriend Tweedle Dum around, even though it was a toxic relationship and affected the children?) To Toxic Feral Eldest, Her mother being there means she took her to drs to get antidepressants, and gave her edibles for cramps. If her mother is always THERE for her, why doesnt she visit her mother?
DH and I and my mother came to the conclusion that I am simply a convenient excuse for why she refuses to come to visit. She doesnt visit her 96 year old grandma, and I am not over there. She could care less about her uncle who is fighting cancer - because he told the family about her holding hands with a guy once. So she cannot attend family gatherings. She cannot visit her sister when at grandmas house, conveniently.... because she doesnt drive, but lives in the same town.
However, that being said, I am considering that possibly she is telling the truth as far as she knows it, and considering a temporary separation from my husband. If there is ANY chance that I am truly the only thing standing between my husband and his daughter, if there is ANY chance that I am keeping Munchkin from having a relationship that is positive with her sister, simply because I live there, shouldnt we at least find out? I dont know.
As far as Munchkin goes, we discussed the texts with her, and she cried. When I said that if she really doesnt like me and feels that she isnt valued, then I should leave. She asked me to please stay. She hugged me. She told me she loved me. DH told her he loved her. As far as Munchkin and her feelings, she sais that I make her father happy, and I make HER happy, and she wants me there, and she is really happy for us being married. She doesnt know why her sister would say the things she said.
I must say, its a shock, but at least we know the truth of how Toxic Feral Oldest feels. I thought I was neautral, and I thought her and her father were working towards a positive relationship, with texts. She kept promising to visit with him and have lunch somewhere and then flakes and makes excuses. No happy birthdays for DH's 50th. Nada, but I still believed there were at least POSSIBILITIES. Now we know the truth. As time has gone by, her hatred and resentment have grown. She doesnt appreciate anything that we have done for her. Just plays victim that she is the bullied child that he allowed to be harrassed. (forget about her calling me names and telling me im disgusting, and horrible and she hates me...)
The only good thing to come out of this, is that DH and Munchkin both stood by my side and told me they love me and want me to stay.
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Comments
The truth always surfaces, it
The truth always surfaces, it may take a while but it happens. Glad that Munchkin gave you the affirmation that you needed !
Thats what DH said
And that we just need to stand strong, that this too will pass and things will get better.
You know it's a toxic rant
You know it's a toxic rant from a toxic person. So why are you giving it any thought?
Your DH needs to march his happy butt to the school and find out what exactly they are teaching his daughter and why the discussion of kids versus spouse is even on the menu for 12 year olds. I can't think of ANY middle school classes, minus a misguided and warped sex ed class, where that would even NEED to be discussed.
Also, I'd be having a sit-down with Munchkin and letting her know that if she has an issue with you or DH that she needs to address it to your or DH. This going back and tattling to Mommy Dearest and Toxic Troll is not appropriate. THAT is damaging to your relationship with her, and vice versa. Toxic Troll blowing up is a direct result of Munchkin rattling, and while she may have cried, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be some consequence for it. Munchkin's actions led to your DH getting hurt, and Munchkin needs to realize that her actions have REAL consequences. Her crying got her sympathy and out of hor water. She played you all like a fiddle.
4th time this has happened
She knows. Its the 4th time (I just checked) that this has happened. I have asked, and asked and asked "please Munchkin if you are upset with me, please tell me and we can discuss it. If you dont feel safe talking to me, please talk to your father. " This involving her sister has happened recently, around summertime. I actually encouraged her to text her sister and maintain contact in that way.
Well, her sister has shown
Well, her sister has shown that she is part of the problem. It's okay to tell her that it is no longer appropriate now. Not that she should be barred from talking to her sister, but that she needs to talk to you two before she runs off to her.
Munchkin will have to learn that she can't have it both ways. She can't trash talk you to Toxic Troll yet still have an open and honest relationship with you. That hurts you and makes you distrust her.
But she has no one else to talk to
About these family issues.
I just go back to the fact that we Steps will always be the percieved "bad guys", and we will always be found at fault for everything.
Her mother can beat the crap out of her sister, but its ok, because she got sister antidepressants and is always there for her...
In life
Somepeople like to rewrite history, To make them look better. Seams like BM likes rewriting history to make her look good and was the good person, and everything is everybody else fault. But most people know the real truth.
REwriting history
Is a gentle way to put it. BOTH the mother and the Eldest has taken things and twisted. Actual bold-faced lied. Just to make herself victim and everyone else the bad guy.
If there is ANY chance that
I am sorry and do not want to be mean, but that is one of the STUPIDEST things I've ever seen written. Munchkin's ONLY chance at a normal life is NOT to follow her hideous sister's footsteps.
Toxic eldest is a horrible, horrible POS. Why do you think your DH and Munchkin should have their lives sullied and ruined by having a relationship with that POS.
I do not think you should overtly take any actions to keep them apart, but on the other hand there is nothing positive to be gained by trying to push them together. Eldest is trash like her mother.
I panicked
I have been ready to bolt since the child support modification ch!t.
Munchkin appears to be
Munchkin appears to be playing both sides. She is the one starting the drama. Your DH needs to tell her to cut it out. As for the Feral Oldest? Totally disengage from her. Block her from your phone. Don't discuss her. If your DH wants to try to foster his relationship with her, let him, but you stay out of it.
I think so too
She has done this 3 times in 4 months. Twice with Mother and now twice with sister. Its becoming a pattern of behavior.
He has continued to tell her "come to me if you have a problem, please, we can talk it out", but she has continued to disregard his requests. So I think, in her quest for approval she has entered into a twisted form of "pick me" dance, especially to get her sisters attention.
First off, you aren't what
First off, you aren't what keeps her from having a relationship with DH, it's the parental alienation.
But I will tell you right now, Munchkin IS telling them the things they say she is. We went through this with SS before he was alienated. He would tell BM he hated DH and didn't want to come over to our house, and then when BM went on a rant about it, he would straight-faced deny it. He had to always show BM he was on her side, and he was loyal to her. We always assumed BM was lying but it gradually came out that he was doing exactly what she said he was.
Munchkin wants the approval of her mother and sister and does what she knows will get it. I'm going to be very honest here - you were wrong to say that if you are the problem, you will leave, to the child. It seems like you were seeking validation from her that she wants you to stay and that's putting her in a very bad place. She will now feel very guilty about what she said to her sister and that kind of confusion and guilt is what leads to alienation. (not you alienating her - her taking herself out of the middle to avoid those confused feelings).
You have to disengage some from this kid. I know you love her, but she comes from a toxic family and there is a very good chance she will go down that road herself. If my SS said to me the stuff about how the "teacher says kids come first," I would have said, "oh really - that's nice" and not taken the bait. Unfortunately, this kid is not totally available to have the kind of relationship you want to have with her. She's divided in her loyalties, and because of that, she really can't be trusted.
I'm not suggesting you be mean to her - just be wary.
I suspect you are spot-on
About the approval from Sister and Mother. Sister went no contact for a while, and now is paying her some attention, since she got her phone and they text here and there.
Spot on as well, I made a mistake saying that. HIndsight=20/20
I made mention that it was strange that BOTH ToxicTroll and Toxic Eldest were saying that Munchkin hates me, dislikes me and thinks I am a total bully and total b!tch. She got VERY defensive and glared at me, saying "Im telling the Truth!". I got a weird feeling. But then she kept saying how "I make her dad happy, I make her happy, I want us all to be together like we are now..."
During our conversation it occured to me that this is a pattern she has developed. why would you go to the very people you know despise me the most and would happily dance on my bleeding heart, to tell them something bad that I did? I have the feeling that she is feeding into that for approval.
The best thing to do would be
The best thing to do would be for DH (NOT YOU) to take Munchkin aside and say, "Munchkin, I know you love me and CLove, but I get the feeling that you think you have to tell sister and BM that you don't, and even say mean things about her, to make them happy. I want you to know that it's OK to love us AND love them. If you love one parent it doesn't mean you don't love the other one. And if sister doesn't like me and CLove, that doesn't mean you can't." Rinse, repeat as necessary.
Munchkin isn't just looking for approval, she's afraid of losing sister and BM. This is powerful and standing up to it is very hard for most kids.
DH has indeed told her all of that
But you are right. The toxic pattersn begun a long time ago are being echoed through each of the children. Munchkin as started the pattern in herself, that i thought was broken. Had hoped was broken.
I just wonder about the phychology of "group hatred". You know - how people gather and bond over their hatred of another person. I now feel like I have 2, maybey 3 loaded guns pointed at my head right now, ready to pull the trigger.
Since it happened, Munchkin as locked herself away, and is acting very depressed. She acted surprised at her sisters reactions to her father and myself, I was very surprised. So I think we are all in a bit of a shock.
And Friday is her mothers day, so Im certain the cycle will continue. And more hate texts to DH.
you were wrong to say that if you are the problem, you will leave, to the child. It seems like you were seeking validation from her that she wants you to stay and that's putting her in a very bad place.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Im sorry but that was awful. You left the decision about your marriage to a small child? And you told her that!! I doubt you would have really left your DH if the child said she did not want to be around you. It seems like a needy ploy to get the kid on “your side” and make her feel bad.
I feel really bad for this child. She is in the middle of the adults more than any skid I have seen on here. You and DH put as much pressure on her as her mother and sister. And she is only 12. So she is trying to navigate the bizarre behavior at her BMs house and the bizarre behavior at her Dads house. She cannot win for losing.
IMHO…you should not have told her that her father should consider you, over her. How did you actually think she would take that? I also think you and DH need to leave her out of adult issues. If BM calls and says SD 12 hates you. Tell BM to pound sand and don’t even bring it up to SD. How many times does she have to validate her feeling about you guys when she is with her mom? BM is crazy but you and DH own a share in this too.
Hindsight
=20/20. No one is perfect. She is in the middle and there is nothing we can do about it. I admit it was a mistake, I rabsolutely realize that. After almost 5 years of this toxic crazy sh!t, I am tired and beyond feeling strung out. With the abusive behavior from the mother, the ongoing hatred and abuse by the daughter, Munchkin was my buddy. If there was a chance that she felt invalid, or unimportant, I guess I panicked and said what I thought was the thing she needed to hear, to feel validated. I NEEDED to hear from her that BOTH her sister and her mother were making things up about her hating me. Ive been ready to bolt many times. Sometimes I fantasize about leaving it all behind me.
Unfortunately she has locked herself into a behavior pattern that it will be hard to get out of. 3 times out of 4 months, she has gotten upset at something I said, and instead of talking with father, whom she is REALLY close to, she goes right to the very person/people who despise me the most, who would gladly rip my eyeballs out and stomp on them, who would like to tear my heart out and burn it, she goes to them, and tells them she is upset with me. I think it wins her approval and validation, in a twisted game of "pick me".
Believe me, I get it. It’s
Believe me, I get it. It’s why I never allowed myself to get close to my SS. I knew he liked me and loved his dad but would do anything to make his mother happy. It’s horrible to watch and live through. Protect yourself. You can’t save her from her family.
This ^^^ every word Tog said.
This ^^^ every word Tog said. I too, went through this with my OSD26 (This started at age 7) and the running back to BM who hated me from day 1 (my YSD and anyone in her family who would listen). She would also make up things to tell my YSD about me and tell her "remember blood is thicker then water" when she'd find out YSD and I were in contact, especially if she was mad at me about something she perceived I did/said to her.
Your SD has shown you a pattern and where her loyalties lie. She may be 'only' 12 but her personality was formed by age 7-8 (thanks to her BM and Sister). Like my OSD, there is something your SD likes about you and that's why she doesn't want you to know her two-faced nature. Going forward, protect your heart from her and be very careful what you tell her because it's all being repeated in some form or another.
Lately
Ive been thinking back and rehashing past events. If we cant learn from our past we repeat it, and I feel like this whole 4 plus years has been a huge repetitive loop. The past few months, really since June/July, Munchkin as been acting out, kind of bratty, which was weird to me at the time. Like if she cant get her way - I am not up for pizza and she wants pizza, and DH wants asian food, and the asian place is next to the pizza place, and we go for the asian place, she will pout and do silent treatment. Or if we go somewhere and I buy something with MY money, that I worked for, she should "get something" too, and will pout. Toxic Eldest was always jealous when her sister and then me got stuff. She was the age that she was earning her own monies.
And even during a nice day outing, she acted out. She wanted to go to the river and our big goal was something else, and we went to the river eventually, but because it wasnt to her specifications, she pouted and complained. I see her personality has changed. She enjoys trash talking people that have angered or upset her, like her sister and mother. We have been clashing over opinions, mostly, and she will do a silent treatment and give snotty answers to questions. I just thought this was normal teen behavior, but now I am seeing a sinister side to this. Is she going toxic like her mother and sister...? The tattling thing - DH just said to me "well who else does she have to talk to, if she cant talk to you, and feels like I will take your side in everything?" A vaild point I guess. Im thinking myself into a never-ending loop.
Yes, the acting out, bratty
Yes, the acting out, bratty behavior, silent treatmentor sulking and gossiping was my OSD as well. Like you, we thought she would grow out of this behavior maybe into her early 20's, instead it got worse. She became more vocal and passive aggressive. Like, making comments as if she were referring to someone else but indirectly talking about us. She would even bring up a conversation she and I may have had about my DH and say it was a conversation she had with a friend and pretend her friend said something I once said and call her friend a lier or dumb for thinking that way.
I eventually caught on to what she was doing but just stopped entertaining it. Your SD is just getting started and it will get worse as she ages. Every encounter with my SD was nothing but drama and before I disengaged from her, i stopped being so available (answering her texts, changing the subject when she started her gossiping sessions and tried to avoid her when she would visit. Which PISSED her off.
Regarding your DH comment, she has plenty of people to vent to, she just deliberately go to your enemies for validation. At 12, our DD knew who to avoid conversing with when she had an issue to avoid drama. Your SD knows exactly what she's doing she probably just didn't expect her sister to throw her under the bus. And like your SD, every time my YSD told me something my SD said about me or something I supposedly said and I asked OSD (Which she always denied) she avoided me for a while until she felt safe to wiggle her way back in with me only to start something else back up and play victim. It is a never ending cycle. You just have to break it now that you know what she's about.
With a toxic BM your SD doesn't stand a chance and neither do you with your SD. Oh and my SD couldn't give me specifics on how I came between my DH and het relationship but she did tell DH he chose me over her and takes my side all the time. Your SD knows she can talk to you and your DH she just like the drama her BM and Sis brings. We too, told SD countless times to come to us if she had an issue (respectfully, of course) but she chose against it. They don't want to resolve the so called issues they'd rather create them and cause division.
She asked me to stay
And told me she loved me. But now she is staying in her room and not talking. Im wondering if its out of guilt because she "got caught", telling her sister she doesnt like me. I thought we were great friends. My bad, I guess we arent/werent. I think she is just so desperate for attention and she knows that anything bad she can say about me will get it.
I just thought she was neutral, and loved everyone, not that she was "on my side" or anything. Now Im starting to realize that she is indeed starting to go to that dark side.
She most likely does love you
She most likely does love you and her father. She also loves her sister and her mother. On some level, she realizes that she can't have both, because sister and BM won't tolerate it, and she is more afraid of losing them than losing you and her father (their love is conditional, her father's isn't). Alienation happens when a kid, to keep themselves sane, adopts a defense mechanism of believing one side is "all good" and the other side is "all bad". Then they reject the all bad side. It's toxic, damaging and it's child abuse.
Not all kids exposed to alienation get alienated. Your DH can continue to help her think critically about whether it's OK to love both sides of her family. Teenagers are drawn to the promises and bribery of the alienating parent and it feels powerful to be given permission to be "above" your father and stepmother in the hierarchy.
DH needs to keep talking to her about all of these things, in a way that doesn't bash BM or sister.
Just watch her behavior. My
Just watch her behavior. My SD told me she loved me all the time but her behavior eventually showed me different. I remember one time, BM called a hoe on my SD Facebook status saying "she was coming to visit us" with a picture. I stooped to BM level and emailed her a ripped her a new one and BM told me my SD dispised me. Of course, AS denied it but why would her BM lie on her. Anywho, at that point I knew she did or was telling her BM she did to gain her approval.
I told you my story because there are so many similarities but for your sake, I hope that's not the case. I'm just jaded lol. You also have your DH to back you up and help with his DD dilima. It may turn around for you. My DH wanted no parts in US discussing the drama train with SD he thought she would grow out of it or it would work itself out. He only spoke to SD if she was blatantly rude or disrespectful towards me until he eventually banned her from our home.
I know how hurtful this is, and I hope you all can overcome this.
Thanks
Disengagement is my new black.
I second Tog's analysis
Munchkin has divided loyalties. Time to disengage somewhat from Munchkin. She is trying to play both ends against the middle and seriously can't be trusted. She's done it four times so she obviously is getting a kick out of it. The toxic gene pool she comes from may very well override all the love you've shown her.
YSS was "daddy's boy" until peer pressure from SD, OSS, Girhippo and her clan took precedence. Blood is thicker than water.
You should be looking at her
You should be looking at her actions rather then her words.
At 12 she has learned to play you and her dad. She knew by going to her mom/sister and let create a Sh*t Storm around meant that she got to play the victim rather then having a conversation about family structure, and while I don't agree your spouse should always come first, children shouldn't always be first.
I think she also needs consequences for her actions and more just talking a to.
Toxic skids will try to form alliance against you
Only thing worse than toxic bio parent is the toxic skid that tries to turn everyone else against you. Siblings have this unspoken alliance between them b/c they have always been the "victims" together and survivors of their parents splitting up. Once one of them turns on you, they will try to turn all the others, even your own bio kids. It got to the point with my SS16 that he had to go live with his egg donor b/c we couldn't have him around the other kids in our home.