To baptize or not
Okay a bit of background. First my DH does not believe in organized religion, in fact he would be classified as an agnostic. I myself have some religious beliefs, but I am still searching. Anyways BM has recently become Catholic. Her latest BF/Fiance (whatever he is) comes from a somewhat practising Catholic family and they convinced her to convert. When married to my DH the ex did not show any sign of a religious tendancy. Plus my DH has always made it very clear how he feels about organized religion.
Anyways a couple of days ago she sent DH an email about getting SD baptized in the Catholic faith. EX-wife claims that SD has been telling her that she is interested in being baptized because her friends are and they are starting to go through communion. Also SD does go to a Catholic School, but only because it was the best school in the area. DH is against this as he would rather have SD wait till she is older and can understand what it means to be baptized in a faith and then it is up to her to decide. I asked DH if he and his ex had ever discussed the baptizmal thing when they were together and DH said that he made it clear of his feelings towards this.
I guess I am of the belief that if EX has been a practicing Catholic her entire life or even more that a year and did it for other reasons that to impress her future inlaws I would be all for a child getting baptized in their parents faith.
I just know this is going to be a long drawn out battle between them and I am not looking forward to it.
Just wanted to know what others thought about this.
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Well I'm living in a Catholic
Well I'm living in a Catholic country and I see this play out all around me all the time.
She can get the child baptized with or without him.
I DO believe there is pressure on the kids here to go through communion here because everyone else is doing it. I'd say there are only a tiny, tiny minority of them who actually believe any of it. The girls get to have their ears pierced, they all get HUGE parties and all friends and relatives give them money. I read recently the average 'take' a child gets from a communion is 2000 Euro per child.
Also, most parents I know DO get their children baptized and have them go through communion but again, it's not so much because they actually believe it, it's tradition. It's pushed through the schools here, they are taught during class time how to prepare for first communion. Luckily, I have my DD going into a secular school.
If I only had a dollar for every parent who has told me 'Yeah, we'll have a christening. We don't really believe it but it's not for us, it's for the grandparents and it will make it easier when child starts school.'
IMO I couldn't be that hypocritical but that's another story.
Anyway, my point is that you probably can't do anything about it. Just because she does what everyone else in school and her mom does doesn't mean she's actually really into it. Just make sure you talk to her about superstition and thinking rationally. The best tools you can give her is the ability to think for herself instead of blindly following the crowd. If you give her that, she'll be fine.
I think what you do depends
I think what you do depends on the "depth" of your DH's feeling on this subject. He needs to truthfully look at this situation and ask, "Am I against this because I believe it is not in my daughter's best interests, or am I against it because I personally do not believe in it?"
We are Lutheran (DH and I), and BM is whatever denomination she likes best at the moment. At some point she was a religion where kids can get baptized, at any age, as many times as they want (the more the merrier). Well, the bible teaches and Lutherans believe that only one baptism is needed for salvation from your sins. And SD had been baptized in the Lutheran church as an infant (because BM was Lutheran when she was with DH). And SD attended a private Lutheran school.
BM then decided she wanted to "fit in" in this new church and the best way to do that was let SD get baptized again. DH said absolutely no way, no how, put his foot down. He was consistently against it, every time it was brought up to him. Now, that doesn't mean BM didn't do it; we just never found out that she did. Now that SD is 17, I'm sure she can decide for herself what way to go (and she is following in BM's footsteps as far as religion is concerned because BM's church is more "fun" than ours).
Well...If your DH is
Well...If your DH is agnostic, then why would he care if someone sprinkled water on his child's head. I guess that's the way I see it. If you don't believe in the whole baptism thing, then it's nothing more than running through a sprinkler, right?
...and before anyone takes offense. I am a practicing Catholic. I mean no disrespect to the sacrament of Baptism. But I would think that if you weren't a person of faith, you would just see it as a silly ritual.
I'll try to answer for the
I'll try to answer for the agnostic but I'll preface it by saying I'm not going to get into a debate on religion.
The problem he probably has with it is not the sprinkling of water or the 'silly ritual', it's the indoctrination, particularly when a child does not have the experience or wisdom to compare multiple beliefs and make an informed and intelligent decision about what she believes.
I agree. If he doesn't see
I agree. If he doesn't see any relevance and it isn't harmful to his daughter why would he complain? Isn't that being just as controlling as the mother?
see above No, it isn't being
see above
No, it isn't being as controlling.
He's leaving her to come to her own conclusions when she is experienced and wise enough to form her own opinions as opposed to indoctrination and brainwashing.
But he isn't leaving her to
But he isn't leaving her to come to her own conclusions if he is sending her to a faith based school where many parts of her education are steeped in religous beliefs.
It is especially difficult for a child to draw their own conclusions when their teachers and authority figures at school are instructing them on what their religous beliefs should be. Difficult to ask a child to take some, leave the rest.
If he doesn't want to have her baptised, I support it 100%, but don't send her to a faith based school and ask her to be the odd man out.
That's why I said I don't
That's why I said I don't think there's anything he can do about it.
I see it in my skids. The eldest just turned 8. This year her class started preparation for communion. There is no question but that she will do it. The communion ceremony is done as a class. To NOT do it would single her out from all her classmates plus she'll get loads of money, get her ears pierced and pass to a more 'grown up' stage. She doesn't really get the religious bit. She isn't taking it to heart. She's just doing what everyone else is doing. She's doing what's expected of her. From a religious perspective it's pointless - well except it adds numbers to the church's claims of how many members they have.
It's a side effect of putting the child in a Catholic school. It wouldn't be fair to make her attend there but then make her separate herself from the others.
I'm just saying that he shouldn't worry too much that she'll actually become a practising Catholic. She's just trying to fit in.
I don't get it what is all
I don't get it what is all this about piercing ears? I have never heard this before and I don't understand what it has to do with your First Holy Communion.
Here it's tradition that
Here it's tradition that girls get their ears pierced for their first communion. It's not religious but then for most people here there's really nothing religious about the first communion/confirmation anyway. It's all about the party, money and other things that they get.
It should be know that where
It should be know that where we live, the Catholic School system isn't all that steeped in religious beliefs. There are no religious study classes and the only real church is on special occations such as Easter and Christmas. There are lots of children that attend this school that are from other denominations.
DH doesn't see it as
DH doesn't see it as controlling, his biggest problem with organized religion is that many don't practise what they preach. He doesn't care if she gets baptized when she is older and is doing it for the right reasons. He wants her to decide for herself.
I think if she's going to a
I think if she's going to a Catholic school it "sort of" makes sense that she get baptised. Especially if the child herself is old enough to say that she wants to, then I'd say let her.
Often people who categorize themselves as agnostic or do not follow a specific church see organized religion as a little unfair. We are all brought up in our particular family as Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, etc...but if we happened to be brought up in a Lutheran, Buddhist, or Baptist family, we'd think that was right. The unfair part comes from the fact that we are somewhat 'forced' into believing whatever our parents believe. Later in life it seems acceptable to choose a different path.
If DH says NO to his daughter getting baptised in the Catholic faith, he is essentially forcing his beliefs on to her and being just as unfair (even though he possibly feels it's unfair for BM who hasn't had a lick of Catholic sentiments in her life to force it).
Do you see my point? There's two sides to this coin.
I forgot to mention that SD
I forgot to mention that SD has never said anything to us about her wanting to be baptized ever. She lives with us fulltime. Also she constantly complains when she has to go to her mothers about not wanting to go to church and she maybe goes to church with her BM once a month.
I was baptized when I was a child in my parents, grandparents faith and I have never attended a single church service of my baptized faith except for weddings and funerals.
I see your point completely.
Okay, my post definitely was
Okay, my post definitely was with the thought that SD was wanting to be baptized. I'd talk it through with her...discuss religious options without being negative towards one or the other (if you can) or encourage her to do some investigating online before she makes a choice.
But it sounds like she's at the age where all of her friends are doing it (or have) so she will want to, too...that might be the factor that wins out over all else.
I agree.
I agree.
Normally I would say that
Normally I would say that religion is an individual choice and should be something that everyone, including children, are encouraged to draw their own conclusion about. I am not a Christian. One of my children is a Christian. One of my children is a Buddhist. 2 of my stepchildren are agnostic, like their father, and one is a Christian, although she's actually a little young to have any decisive views about faith.
However, you and your DH are allowing her to attend a Catholic school "because it's the best school in the area". For this reason, I would say that if you are going to surround her with Catholic doctrine but withhold your permission to participate in some of it...well, you do realize this is a child, right? How confusing for anyone! Especially a child. I would say if you don't want her to be Catholic, take her out of a religous school.
One thing DH and I have made crystal clear in regards to his children's choices in faith (and mine, as well) is that while they are free to participate in religious activities that interest them, it is to be kept completely seperate from their schooling so that they can make up their own minds about what they believe or not. When BM wanted to enroll SD3.5 in preschool, the only two conditions were that it was a secular preschool, and that it was a school, not a daycare. Period.
I should clarify that I am
I should clarify that I am neither here nor there regarding the baptizmal. This is one of those things that I am staying out of because I myself was baptized as a child and it did me no harm. My only problem is that BM chose to become Catholic because of who she is dating at this time. Neither of her older children are baptized because she didn't have a specific religion.
I also agree with everyone when they say if she is in a Catholic School then this is something that should be expected and I told DH that.
I completely understand this,
I completely understand this, and I would be all for this. However this will be BM 4th wedding and her track record isn't very good with husbands. She changes husbands like most people change socks.
How old is SD? Does she have
How old is SD? Does she have a choice?
You don't have to be baptized
You don't have to be baptized to go to a Catholic school. I went to a Catholic school (graduated in '81) and there were a number of kids there who were not even Catholics.
Yep. About 35% of the kids
Yep. About 35% of the kids at my kids' Catholic school were non-Catholics.
Something similar happened to
Something similar happened to me when I was 12.
I answered an alter call and afterward felt NO DIFFERENT.
It was a turning point moment for me but not for the reasons people usually think.
After, when the entire congregation filed by to hug and congratulate me I looked every one of them in the eye. Now I knew that every single damned one of them was faking it and now they knew that I knew it.
I respect people's rights to believe whatever they want to believe. If they respect my right to do the same that's great.
I think she should be allowed
I think she should be allowed to go through the process. It was in the process of catechism training (around age 12), that I realized I did believe, despite any evidence to the contrary. Let her have the chance to really decide.
My faith has been a great comfort to me and helped me a million times over the years. Let her have some.
p.s. I am Lutheran and I agree - if you do it once, you don't need to do it again!