I haven't been on here that long and wasn't sure if this had been discussed. I'm posting the definition in here and also the link for the actual paper it's in. Here's the kicker...this is prevalent enough that this syndrome is posted all over the place online, but not a big enough issue that anyone's done the research that would make this a truly useful diagnosis for court proceedings. I hope I'm still around when these vindictive ladies (term used very loosely)are no longer able to manipulate the court system this way. Here it is:
The present section provides a beginning definition of the Divorce Related Malicious Mother Syndrome, which has been derived from clinical and legal cases. As in all initial proposals, it is anticipated that future research will lead to greater refinement in the taxonomic criteria. The proposed definition encompasses four major criteria, as follows:
A mother who unjustifiably punishes her divorcing or divorced husband by:
Attempting to alienate their mutual child(ren) from the father
Involving others in malicious actions against the father
Engaging in excessive litigation
The mother specifically attempts to deny her child(ren):
Regular uninterrupted visitation with the father
Uninhibited telephone access to the father
paternal participation in the child(ren)'s school life and extra-curricular activities
Tile pattern is pervasive and includes malicious acts towards the husband including:
Lying to the children
Lying to others
Violations of law
The disorder is not specifically due to another mental disorder although a separate mental disorder may co-exist.
And here's the link http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/pas/turkat95.htm
Anyone else who knows an ex who fits the bill?
Sure here is one example.
Sure here is one example.
Regular uninterrupted visitation with the father
Church activities (that have nothing to do with living a good Christian life or honoring their father) are over-scheduled so the father never gets a full weekend with them. Mother actually found a judge to order their father to take children to their step-father's chuch on the father's weekend.
Attempting to alienate their mutual child(ren) from the father
Tells children that father is only a biological attachment and
rewards children for having disdain for him. Tells children if they want to spend entire weeken at a friends house they don't have to visit their father. Teenagers love that of course and since the mother really doesn't want time with them thats a great solution for her weekends.
Involving others in malicious actions against the father
When children were younger their mother wanted children out of her way while dating and pursuing a weathy attorney. After her marriage she launched a legal attack and lied to everyone around her about the father's behavior to get back custody. Now the children are old enough to be independent and function without her spending much time with them.
This mother has sharp con-artist skills and gets away with one lie after the other.
Violations of law
The court order is only something for the father to follow, she does as she pleases, when she pleases.
I'm Afraid You Don't Understand
A mothers bond is different then a fathers "typically" and when divorce takes place the kids will remain closest to the mother and grow up with her values or the ones they obtained from their environment. If the kids are teens or near their teens you cannot force them to see a father they don't want to see. Thats a age where they are active and love to be around their friends, so I found it a little unrealistic that you put all blame on the BM. If the children end up closest to a step dad then there's valid reasons, and sometimes the BD is in denial about the real circumstances or WHY bm and kids are trying to write him out of the picture. Also, it really makes a difference in the bm and childrens eyes if dad had an affair and how he left the family. That all being said, the children end up being closest to the ones that raise them and that is usually BM. Sometimes that alone breeds contempt, and are consequence of many divorces. I'm just saying too many blame the bm too much instead of themselves. JMO
'That all being said, the
'That all being said, the children end up being closest to the ones that raise them and that is usually BM'
Unfortunately, while it's more often than not the norm, it shouldn't always be the norm. In many cases it should be the birth father having physical custody, but the benefits of that are overlooked because of social stereotypes.
What
Its nothing to do with sterotypes, children are born and come out of the mother. They are naturally closer. Now when they get over 2 or 3 they can easily verbalize who they want to live with. Even at young ages they know who they are happiest with and who the nurturer is. If thats the father fine, but most often its the mother. Just The Facts
Yes, they come out of their
Yes, they come out of their mother, but giving birth does not automatically make you maternal, as we see from a lot of stories here. I see the trend of children being with their mothers more not because they are born from them but because the nurturing roles are reinforced by gender stereotypes, rather than a male or female's ability to nurture and feel simply because of their sex. Those roles are nurtured into them, but not always, and boys are capable being jsut as caring of their children as girls are.
If a woman stays home after pregnancy and is breastfeeding she more than likely is going to be with her child more than the working husband, but if that isn't the case then there's no gender reason for one to be a better parent than the other. Only socially instilled ones, which we shouldn't reinforce, that's part of the reason w hy there are so many deadbeat dads. They're raised in a culture that tells them that's normal and acceptable.
Actually, before woman had as many righs, if the man wanted custody, he got custody. They were his bloodline and the courts were biased for men before.
I'm getting too deep here and am not good at explaining these issues.
i disagree
I have watched my husband be the nurturer and the best father ever. My sd'd are not naturally closer to their BM because my husband always has taken care of them and financially provided for them- There is nothing more natural than a father loving his children - they came from him to you know. My husband has full custody and The facts are that more and more mothers aren;t taking care of their kids and more and more fathers are stepping up to the challenge and from what I see in my husband he is probably doing a better job than most birth mothers that have custody of their kids
my apologies...posted
my apologies...posted twice....obviously irritated!
sorry
sorry for irritating you- I should have chose my words more carefully-
That is a rather broad generalized statement to make!
My husband also had sole custody of his kids. However, the majority of primary care givers are still the mothers, statistically AND the majority of single parent families are headed by women. I appreciate that you husband may be doing a great job as a dad (your opinion is somewhat biased as mine would be about my spouse) but I don't think that it is fair to say that it is better than most birth mothers. That is information that is strictly an opinion based on no evidence at all and I am a mother, along with many others here who are excellent parents.
you are right
Better was probably the wrong word to choose and you are right about that. So I will revise that to just as good of a job as good birth mothers.
Thanks...much appreciated!
Take care.
I agree with tiff
My husband is exactly the same. We used to have major problems with the ex-wife - even when we moved countries she followed us and caused as much trouble as she could whispering into the kids' ears, but after a while the novelty wore off, and she went off back to the country she came from, leaving us to care for the kids entirely.
I have to say that the kids are WAAY closer to their father than their mother, as she's consistently unreliable.
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Trouble with a psychotic ex-wife? My Website
Birth Mom, alienation syndrone and custody
My husban'd ex tries to turn the kids against him at every turn she has succeeded with the 13 yr old boy, the other two seem to know she's lying yet they know way too much. The 13 yr old is bad enough when he comes over that his father will tell him he is not to come over again until he will go to couseling with his dad,period. I think it's best for all concerned when the kids is getting downright dangerous. He thinks the answer to all his problems is never coming over, his mom is the one not making him do a thing ( like homework or any type of cleaning ) so he is lazy and irresponsible, and thinks we are "mean" to make him do so much as wash his clothes or put them in a hamper, pick up his room, and do his homework. Any other chore gets $$ but he won't do them usually, just too lazy, then gets made when his sister or little brother get paid for chores and save up for things they want.
We have decided he is just too dangerous to have over, last time on the way to pick him up he hit his sister hard and attacked my husband when he wouldn't let him have his way and tried to hit me, too.
We just hope and pray he will actually eventually miss coming over and agree to counseling in the future, but as long as his mother poisons him against us and he believes it we can really do nothing, and he ruins the time for the other two kids who are both sweet and caring .
It is too bad the BM can't just let him have a decent relationship with his dad. She is the one who left the family and went back to an old boyfriend first, yet she acts like the one who got dumped, go figure ! She didn't work either now finally is doing some caregiver stuff a few days a week so at least she has started to have to work. Too bad she can't see the damage she is doing to her own son.
Don't always assume the
Don't always assume the father left the family. In this case the mother left and later launched a legal attack with funds of her wealthy attorney husband to get custody. The kids love his money too! BM moved to another neighborhood and of course kids get to an age where they rather be with friends and forget BD, but alienation is a reality that should not be tolerated and its so bad for the kids rather it is the BD or BM doing it.
i am the father of a
I am the father of a beautiful 9 yr old daughter who is being manipulated by her narcissistic mother. I was found to be only a good enough father to see my daughter 8 days per month but good enough to pay $500.00. Odd that the second month after cs stated my ex wife is in a new Toyota SUV. I am regularly denied phone communication, ex wife took the home phone out so i have to go through her cell to talk to my daughter. I have received NO report cards or interim reports after numerous requests even though court ordered this. Doctor's apts have been canceled within 30 min of apt. and rescheduled for the next morning. I would find out and go the next morning only to find they were once again canceled. At this point I am on the brink of filing for bankruptcy. The court system in Livingston parish Louisiana is a disgrace. To put it bluntly , I place all the blame on my daughter's mother.
Alienated anonymous dad from 2/12...
You could be my husband, only add two more kids. He's been going through this for years. Sign up and become a member here, you will find lots of support on this issue. We're not the only ones experiencing this. My heart goes out to you.
~ Anne ~
Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice: Pull down your pants and slide on the ice! -M*A*S*H (Sidney Freedman to the OR staff on dealing with stress)
Ditto to Anne
add two more kids and we've got the same scenario! I think stamina assumes that men left the women for no reason (other than possibly SEX) HELLO!!??? That's a HUGE arena in a man's life. If you haven't woken up about that one, well there's no hope for you.
Lots of times, the woman after having kids tells hubby to "fend for himself" and forgets that their relationship is priority over the children. Denies sex to the husband constantly and makes the husband feel like a masher for even looking at his wife.
I blame the "worship at the god of children" culture and the man-hating bombardment. You don't have to go very far to see a commercial portray a father as a bumbling idiot, meanwhile his wife and 3 yr old daughter have all the answers!!! Completley inexcusable!
The wife then expects to be worshipped by the husband (after repeatedly denying bedroom activities for days, weeks, months and sometimes years) and starts turning into nothing more than a teat for the children. After all, the kids don't care if mommy packs on the pounds and becomes unattractive and doesn't take care of herself like she used to. The husband feels he has no place to turn. The marriage eventually breaks up or just glides along at barely tolerating each other levels.
When a divorce finally ensues, the wife blames EVERYTHING on the husband and takes him for a financial raping; immediately claiming the children as her "possessions." That's when the "malicious mother" syndrome starts. After all, shouldn't a husband stick with his wife even if he is turned into nothing more than a platonic roommate, workhorse and wallet during the entire marriage?? (According to the psycho BBs, that is)
I suppose those situations do occur...
But the only two people that truly know what goes wrong in the relationship is the two people themselves and usually the story is very different. My husband's ex and ny ex left our spouses for very different reasons. I do find the person who does the leavning doesn't do as well as soon, in the literature. My own struggle was having a husband who had a bad head injury from a car accident...from a drunk driver who went through a stop sign without evening slowing down. My husband was left very different, very violent and unpredictbable. It was unsafe to stay will. That preceding in him leaving. Sometimes relationships just aren't meant to be.
Blame and Just getting on with it
I understand your point, my childrens Mother put me in jail for being in arrears for 6,000.00, then on top of that , she has filed seven restraining orders on me since we separated in 2004. My first mistake was listening to my pastor, who said that I should wait until her heart softens, well I waited and waited for 3 years without seeing my children because she had them on the restraining order part of the time, and when they weren't on the restraining order, I had to call their mothers phone to talk to them which was on the restraining order as well, and I was not to contact her by phone. So I could call my kids, but I couldn't because I would be arrested if I called my ex's phone number. "This all was because I said, "You're dead to me" all we have in common now are the kids...the day she told me to get out. Everyone knows that your dead to me means you do not exist anymore in someones mind. Ever since then she has made my life a living hell, even after she got married, she tried to adopt my kids out from under me. I finally got her back into court, 2 years 2 psych exams to make sure I am not a threat to anyone and 10 thousand dollars later I can finally see my kids again. But now they think I abandoned them.. think your ex is evil? Lets compare notes...
You could be
My BF just add two more kids AND the biomom works as a CHILD PROTECTIVE WORKER in her county; has already launched a phoney child abuse charge against us which took me 6 mos of painstaking work to reverse. It's just as bad here in NY court system-wise. I wish you much luck and this is why we all need to become activists for PAS awareness. National PAS awareness day is April 25th so write your governor!
Take a new approach
I am the stepmother of 2 children and the mother is a raving .... I have been dealing with her and her non-sense for almost 9 years now. One thing I will admit is that women are master manipulators if they chose. So, let me suggest that you take necessary steps to remove yourself from as much of her crap as possible. It's sad to say that the court doesn't want to hear you "cry" about not getting report cards. I can hear them now.... "Awe poor baby" they could careless!! I suggest that with the report cards that you make arrangements with the school to get copies yourself. Any doctor appointments call ahead of time to make sure there are no changes or explain to the doctors office the situation, to some degree and have them call you in the event of a cancellation. I understand why you feel that it is all her fault, honestly. But if you already know that she's a complete jerk than there is no reason that you should expect anything but ruthless behavior from her. Whatever you can do to insure you get what you want or need without her help then do it. I wouldn't ask about it, talk about it or let her know that you are getting or have gotten it. What I am sure about is that she knows that it makes you upset and that she is being put in a position of power over your emotions, so stop letting her! There is nothing or little that you may be able to do through court but the rest is in your control. Maybe look at it like this. It will piss her off to no end when she realizes that you don't need her and can get what you need on your own. So for the things that are in your control take control and stop blaming her for being the jerk that she is. Shame shame for expecting anything different from her. Good luck to you!
On that happy note...I'm
On that happy note...I'm going to bed. That's good advice for my situation too. I think I'll go sleep on it.
No kidding "Shame shame for expecting anything different from her." That's really good.
Children need BOTH parents
I was shocked by the danger of 'Brandy's' comments. For any parent, Dad or Mom, to not understand and encourage the importance of a solid relationship with the biological Dad (or Mom if role reversed) is just plain wrong**. Hopefully one day will be as enforced as child support payments. (**obviously if there is danger of physical or emotional abuse at other home that is a caveat - but Brandy did not speak of that)
I could 'see' by Brandy's comments that she is 'justifying' her own feelings toward Fathers or whatever caused her divorce. Whenever one hears or reads 'the children should be able to choose if they don't want to see the other parent'...or 'friends are more important than Dad' are looking for excuses to alienate the kids from Dad, know there is MALICE and MANIPULATION taking place. Children in a home where they 'know Mom doesn't like Dad' will comply with Mom's spirit to survive emotionally. Children across America are being damaged by attitudes like this. CHILDREN NEED BOTH PARENTS...and both parents should encourage fully equal connection to the other parent.
We are conducting RESEARCH to help Children of Divorce...as we have lived through it. We are telling it like it is! Brandy...you are not helping your kids. They will end up as adults with relationship issues. Respond to surveys at ...
http://generationcd.blogspot.com
You need a reality ck Hope
Thats bs because I have seen situations where the child should have very minimal contact with the other parent because of lifestyle choices, and are basically lousey parents who shouldn't have had kids. Too often the children as they become older make up their mind about the ncp, Alec Baldwins daughter comes to mind. She is 12 and many like her know who the nurturing parent is and isn't. There are dad's like Darren Mack who live deviant lifestyles and are clearly unstable that should have had supervised visitation. Sometimes the bio parent is plain and simple unfit, and the other parent has to make due and often finds a spouse or partner to coparent. That can be mom or dad for sure. But statistics point to the mother more often.
This is so not true
I respectfully disagree. The courts favor mothers over fathers because of outdated and sexist mores based on 1950's values. Fathers have never been more involved in their kids lives than now and as evidenced by all of our posts and blogs and due to outmoded legal tendencies, mothers often obtain residential custody, even when the father does his best to get the same or even just equal custody. My skids are actually more closely bonded to their dad (and I know of many other situations like ours) and frequently say that they want to live with us, not their mom. Over half of my friends grew up in blended families and I would say that over half feel way more close to their fathers than their mothers. We don't live in the fifties anymore and things have changed. Unfortunately, the legal system is still catching up, although dads have made great progress in the past couple of decades. My step-kids are fully aware of what happened with their mom, their dad and me and it has had no impact on how close they are with their dad. They actually tend to come to me with their personal problems and my older SS just recently told me that he appreciates me because i'm "not crazy like mom." He told me that he hopes his mom gets married soon because he is tired of living alone with her and he said it's scary that she cries all the time. She has no values and has lied in front of and to my step-kids. They have no respect for her and it shows. They are dramatically different around their mom. With my husband and I, they have learned that they have to be polite and respect other people and that lying is never allowed. Originally my ss11 defended himself when caught in a lie, by saying, "my mom lies, so why can't I?" Are these the kinds of values you are talking about? It's sexist bull to say that mothers have innate value systems that are superior to fathers'. It's simply not true. In many cases, such as mine, my step-kids actually feel safer and happier when they are with us because we are actually mature adults that act like adults. The kids mother turns to her five year old and eleven year old sons for emotional support, which is way, way out of their league. After she got dumped by her last "boyfriend" of two weeks, she sobbed for five hours and kept my ss11 up until 2:00am telling him about her love life trauma. My SS11 found out about sex because he found a used condom on his bathroom floor at his mom's house. This woman is not emotionally, physically or socially stable and she sets no rules or boundaries for her kids or provides them with any kind of secure environment. Kids deserve to be kids while they can, they should never take the place of a girlfriend or a counselor. My step-sons live over half the time with their biological mother because the courts in our state automatically favor mothers. She isn't fit to watch a plant let alone children, yet because of inherent sexism and outdated tradition, my husband's children don't get to live primarily in a stable home where they can be kids and know that mature adults are taking care of them and modeling good values.
In many cases, the father can provide a far better home for his children, with two adults in the home, yet the kids are stuck living with their unstable, mentally shaky mothers who stay single because they are incapable of maintaining a healthy relationship. There are exceptions to both cases, but it is way out of line to automatically assume that one parent is better suited that the other purely based on gender. Not to attack single moms, but there is a reason that the secondary relationship happened and the Bio-mom is so often left alone. The dads find a woman that they can love and respect and WANT to be with and obviously the step-moms want to be with the dads for their redeeming qualities. These are two people who love and respect each other. In so many cases, the Bio-mom is single or has a series of flaky boyfriends because HER issues are the reason the dad left in the first place and she isn't capable of sustaining a relationship. There are a lot of rad Bio-moms who this doesn't apply to and they are usually the ones who are happily married and often have step-kids of their own. This isn't always the case, of course, but it sure seems to be a common theme.
Because of the unfair and outdated legal system in relation to custody, mothers frequently get residential or full custody. This does not mean that they should have custody or that they are more fit to raise their children. Sure, some kids in this situation don't want to have visitation with their fathers. I wonder if it has anything to do with being exposed to their bio-moms bitter and skewed perspective. Kids are like sponges and absorb what they hear the most. If the BM has a poor opinion of her children's father and is a bad enough mother to voice this opinion or make it blatantly clear, then of course the kids are going to parrot this. I was lucky enough to have a mother that kept her negative views on my dad to herself (he cheated on her). Because my mom was and is awesome (my step-dad is awesome too) she never tried to poison me against my dad and I grew up having a loving and wonderful relationship with him. I grew up absorbing BOTH of their values and learning from their mistakes. I was raised primarily by my mother because the legal system favored her as the mom, but I would say that both of my parents and my step-dad were equally fit to parent me. Luckily, I got to be influenced and raised by all three.
The courts should evaluate all parents involved without any preference given to the father or mother and base their decision on what is best for the child, not automatically default to the mother (who is often totally incompetent and unstable. I personally know of three BMs with full custody and they all have diagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder. Their fathers do not have any mental issues and want to have custody of their children. Because of the system, these poor kids are stuck with unstable mothers rather than in secure, loving homes with their mentally competent fathers.)
In short, kids end up being closest to the BM in many cases, not because she is more fit to raise them, but simply because the courts DO favor mothers over fathers. These laws were established in a social environment completely different from our current one and need to be revamped and updated to be fair to the kids involved.
"The truth shall set you free." ~John 8:32
Let’s remember that Parent
Let’s remember that Parent Alienation can happen to the father or mother and not all parents have their children's best interest in mind. Often hatred for the ex-spouse is stronger than any love either has for the child(ren). In the case for Malicious Mother Syndrome, it is the mother doing the alienation. Unless one is familiar with these type of cases, one cannot speculate what is really going on, included the judges who are clueless most of the time.
Your Right
It can be either parent with friends and relatives involved. Actually I think its more common then not. And speaking about who the child should be given custody to, I always believe in "most" cases unless the mother is very bad they should stay with her. It is a stronger bond, and why you typically see the children siding with the mother in divorces.
Psychotic Nasty Ex-Wife
My life is really horrible and I cannot even concentrate on my work! I've been with my fiance for over three years now and she is still trying to make our life impossible. Its every week, sometimes every day that we have to deal with her hysteria! She's filed every document possible trying to keep him away from the daughter they share; even a restraining order the judge denied!
It seems so hopeless since his daughter is so young and she isn't getting any better. What can I do to keep my relationship yet try to have a happy life? Why is she torturing us so much? Its very difficult to remain in this relationship with this drama and abuse I know I don't deserve. She calls and asks to speak to her "husband", says she is the love of his life who got away, and says its her he wants. She acts like a wild animal in the presence of the child, cussing and screaming. Can the courts ever listen to a man like him? Will they always side with the psycho ex who has filed pages and pages of false documents? She even went so far as to say that her daughter told her we have a gun and we keep it by the washing machine. (Not true, I hate guns)!
HELP! I cannot take another minute of this!
I am writing a book on this
I am a lawyer in Florida writing a book on this subject to help the fathers. Any stories, experiences etc. are welcome. My email is jluyster@bellsouth.net. I hope the book brings this to the attention of the judicial system and helps all of us get this syndrome recognized as a real problem that the experts can testify to in court.
help the fathers
This story has gone on for four years .My son's wife was alone with the three year old son when she with to the phone and made a call to the sheriff and said my my son said that daddy pee peeed on me . They came and took a quilt from a bed to get the D and A from it which they never did and our son's attonery tried to get it after way over a year and it had been destroyed,and no one could tell where it went. The mother of my son's child has hept him from being alone with him for four years now and also the Grandparents can not be alone with the child . He is now almost nine years old . He loved his Dad and Grandparents. My son is now divorced and it goes on and on . No way will anyone help us. The money with Parentin coordination and years of trying to get his son is hard to believe. All because the mother said the child said Daddy pee peed on me.
This is it . Hard to understand how a Mother can do this to her son and his Daddy.