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What is the difference between Holding a Grudge and Seeing a Pattern and not wanting to Continue It?

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Here is a question DH and I are discussing today.

Reason, he wants me to go down to Twit's with him now that surgery is over. I politely declined.

I have told him that I am very glad things went well for her, but I would not feel comfortable going down there.

He feels, because I have declined that I am being pig headed and living in the past, holding a grudge and that I should forget what has happened because it is water under the bridge, as he says. I disagree. I say there is a long pattern of nastiness that I no longer want to deal with and expose myself to.

It hasn't gone further than that, but I bet it will, though I am trying to defuse it. You see, friends, what Twit has done has been evil, nasty, with malice and just plain vile. DH wants to classify it as just an argument between us.

I am trying, but I sure hope my patience holds out.

I am certain this is only because he feels good that she survived her surgery. Keep in mind that she had him, and me, in a tizzy with us believing she could be in tramatic surgery at any time during the past few weeks.

So, frends, what do you feel is the difference between holding a grudge; and seeing a pattern you don't want to continue to deal with?

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

At this stage - I'm all for the voo doo doll if it works. No, just kidding. I wish ill on no one, but I won't tolerate abuse or ill will at or on me either. That, IMHO, is sell preservation.

Evil stepmonster's picture

If in argument and what ever it was between you to is brought up and the original argument wasn't even about that, I think that classifies as a grudge.
In this case, pointing out that you would rather not go but send your well wishes is pointing out the pattern. At least in my opinion.

ChiefGrownup's picture

Serve him a food he's allergic to and when he refuses to eat it say, "You're just holding a grudge for the last time it gave you hives!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK, the difference between the two is the first time you served him Food X and didn't know he was allergic to it cuz he didn't know, either. Him holding a grudge would be him refusing to eat any of your cooking ever again.

Him seeing a pattern would be if he willingly sat at your table repeatedly and time after time after time he found all his food laced with Food X after you both knew about the allergy. It might behoove him to notice this pattern and avoid your cooking before he ends up in the ER.

Easylikesundaymornin's picture

Holding a grudge involves feeling of being hurt n you chose not to tolerate that behavior any longer.

A pattern is just that ~ doing the same thing over n over again.

What you are dealing with is insantity.

Insantity is doing the same behavior over and over again expecting a different result.

sandye21's picture

Put it back on her! You are doing Twit a favor because you 'don't want to upset her'. Obviously, she has demonstrated many times in the past, by her remarks and her behavior, that you have caused what she sees as torment. You just want her to get well without any undue stress. How can DH argue with you when you are just being considerate of Twit? Right? LOL LOL

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

LOL, Sandye, that is one of the things I told him. After all, she has told both of us many a time she wants nothing more to do with me and then keeps coming back like a boomerang.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Sandye - What I did tell DH was that I am glad Twit survived her ordeal, wish her well. But I do not feel comfortable going down there and being around her. He doesn't get it.

BT16's picture

I don't believe that there is anything wrong with protecting yourself from a negative situation. We can always forgive but its ok not to forget.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Forgiving is one thing, forgetting, well that leaves one open to more of the same bad treatment.

Frankly, after all she has put me through, the tears I have cried, the arguments with DH, the fear she instills when she goes wacky, I don't want to deal with any more. I forgive her, can't do anything about the past, but I don't have to allow her to have a go at me in the present or future.

And I have told DH that.

joan mary's picture

Holding a grudge is rerunning the offending event(s) in your head and waiting for a chance to get even with the offending person. Think of a preditor waiting in the tree to pounce on the prey.

Protection is when you see that the offending event(s) as an indication of who the person is and you avoid letting them repeat the offending event(s). Think of the prey avoiding walking underneath any trees.

I love the line that I learned from a speaker for recovery - "Forgiveness is giving up the hope for a better past". I can forgive my step kids for money borrowed and not repaid, slights, cars crashed, parties at my home when I was not home, insults in the past, etc, etc, etc. I chose not to allow some people to have the opening to repeat any of these events.

Trust, once broken, can take a very long time to reearn but it is possible.

AllySkoo's picture

"Holding a grudge" is if you refuse to forgive a single incident. "Seeing a pattern and not letting it continue" is if you refuse to allow repeated behavior to continue.

While your DH is technically correct that "it's in the past", I'd remind him "those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

hereiam's picture

Holding a grudge means hanging on to the bitterness, resentment, and anger.

You are not doing that, you are just not willing to give her an opportunity to continue to her nastiness to you. She has proven over and over again what kind of person she is and it's the kind you don't want to be around. We are not talking about one incident, here, we are talking about WHO she is. That is different than something she did once.

If you were holding a grudge, your answer would have been a lot different, with some name calling and expletives involved.

Easylikesundaymornin's picture

How much shit must you eat before you decide shit is something you don't really care for ???

Easylikesundaymornin's picture

SDM ~

My issue is this is a grown ass woman not a child. She needs to realize that her father is entitled to have a happy life for the remaining time he has on this earth.

The cycle in life ~ is something she is not willing to accept. As we grow older our relationship with our parents shift bc our parents are no longer responsible for you. The next phase is guidance and advice. She is married and should be acting like a married woman not a 15 year old kid.

kathc's picture

Holding a grudge is:

One year at Thanksgiving she dumped the gravy boat into your lap and laughed about it. She's since apologized and offered to replace your skirt that was ruined by the gravy stains. You hate her and refuse to see her, even though she's tried making it up to you and has never been anything but nice since then.

Seeing a pattern is:

What your SD has done to you.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

No, Twit has never apologized. Once she told me she was sorry and followed that with telling me that now I needed to apologize to her! Other than that, she would tell me things like after giving me a really carppy ashtray for Christmas (and I don't smoke), "it is the THOUGHT that counts". Or says something to the effect that she treated us that way for our own best interest; and we should appreciate it!

Bottom line - it is never her, it is always your fault that she hurt you. Or, my all time favorite: Because someone "meaning me" is too sensitive I took it the wrong way!

But you are right, she never apologizes, has never said the word sorry. Don't think it is in her vocabulary. But she sure can cry, carry on, start trouble with DH, yell at me etc over the slightest thing which are mostly imagined in her mind.

Delilah's picture

Driving, make a therapist appointment pronto! The fact he doesnt get it and is making it an issues (or YOU the problem) is something he used to do. He is getting sucked back into old repetative behaviours because twit is ill and as such deserves for everything to be swept under the rug. I understand his desire for one big happy family but these types of discussions get old dont they?!

I had years of my inlaws playing sick games (sil in particular), she is on/off best mates with bm and pulled some vile, nasty tricks on me. Throughout my dh would ignore it, blame me and the arguments were explosive. I had YEARS of it and now my pil at times play the "woe is me, Delilah, is being a bitch because she refuses to come to family events..." and dh would sometimes feed into that, even though he now doesnt really have much to do with sil. Its stomach churning that people cannot see how it may feel to be harassed, terrorised by a spiteful shrew for years and be the person blamed because you point it out. Nope, how dare you refuse to engage? How dare you not forgive? My sil asked to speak to me earlier this year (specifically to come to my home), just in time for when I was undergoing medical treatments. I considered it and thought "nah, what for? What does her excuse making 5 years after cutting her off, going to bring to my life? She lies, shes nasty and she wont change...what does SHE want, as am sure she wants something..." I later found out she was back to being busom buddies with bm, so likely she was playing fake to stir up trouble, to spy for bm. All she has done previously and thought was funny because no one holds her accountable. I personally cant and wont forget what she has done to me and mine, it would be stupid of me to do that, as she will never change.

If dh refuses to get this because he has stars in his eyes, as all he can see is sd is sick and mean ole SM wont bend over to be dropped kicked again (a visit will only encourage her crazy, like she needs any), then you need someone else to remind him of reality and YOUR damn right to peace. I love love peace, didnt realise how much until these emotional vampires declared war on me (my crime? Marrying dh). It took our therapist to ask dh what I had done to deserve such nasty behaviour...(dh:nothing)....what I had done in return to this vileness (dh:nothing)...then how long was I supposed to spend paying for doing nothing?

Dh now expects nothing from me when it comes to sil and bm. Rightly so. I want nothing to do with those mental, toxic whores. Nothing, except peace.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Thank you D. Very good advice and I will do so if he doesn't get his head out of his backside VERY soon, like by tomorrow morning.

As I said, this hasn't escalated into an argument...yet, but if it does, I will insist he go back to therapy or move down and take care of Twit.

In all honesty, my stomach has been twisting in knots the last week. I don't like it and don't need it.

As you noted, visiting Twit will only open the door to more carp from her. You know, I do feel bad for what could have been and I have given her multitude of chances.

Like someone above posted, when someone hurts you, they apologize, they don't go off about how it is YOUR fault, you are the one with a problem that you feel hurt. That is carp. That is the kind of carp that Twit feeds to DH about me now that I avoid her like ebola. She is cunning, she watches for a weak spot, or a moment you are off guard and then goes for it. But from the reading I am doing about Narcissism etc., that is how these miserable cretins are.

peacemaker's picture

...

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Call me crazy, but I'm cutting DH some slack today. After all, we have both been put through the wringer with Twit nonsense. And I know that yesterday he was very worried, I was concerned as well. Especially since he heard nothing until around 4:30. I never brought up the issue, but, well we women can tell things.

I think, at least I hope, this is just residue because of all the stress etc.

Do note, he never did go down there today. I am not aware that he called her either, at least I was no where around if he did and I have been home all day.

I don't know what goes on with that, but it isn't my problem. And to the best of my knowledge, she hasn't called either.

He hasn't said much more about it in the last hour or so which is good; and he darn well better not bring it up tomorrow or back to the counselor he goes.

That is what is great about this board is that I can talk here instead of getting all upset about things and making a sticky situation worse....I'm human too Smile

If it wasn't for this group I, being stressed out, probably would have had a few things to say about not going down there etc., that would have started a real fight between us. Not about Twit, but about him pushing me to go down there etc. Much, much better to say them here. You do note how many times I post about something, say something and then clarify that I didn't say that portion to my DH so as not to start problems.

You folk give some darn good advise, some things that make perfect sense but when one is upset, under stress one doesn't think about. I don't have all the answers to this stuff and your input makes me think about things, what I am doing, feeling, etc., and ways to handle it. And I THANK YOU all.

Also it is great to get the support that, well that lets me know that I am on the right track. Trust me, I know if I go down to Twit's, as I have said before, she will see it as an open door to start up with me again and I just don't want that. I am not looking for trouble or problems. Twit isn't happy unless she is starting problems with someone, it is how she gets her kicks in life, poor deluded soul that she is.

Amber Miller's picture

A grudge is when someone holds bad feelings against another person as a result of hurting them. If the person that hurt the other has made a sincere, heart felt attempt to mend ways and to take responsibility from the hurt that they caused and the person that was hurt refuses to accept their apology and holds it against them for the rest of their life, then that is what I call a grudge.
You have not held a grudge against twit. If anything, she is the one holding a grudge against you which is evident by all of the evil and nasty trash she sends your way. She has proven over and over again that she will not stop and she is on a mission to destroy your marriage. This is what I call holding a grudge and you are not guilty of this.
The grudge twit holds against you is the pattern.
This pattern if abuse is perpetrated by twit, not you. Unfortunately, twits minor surgery has caused your DH to regress. He's fingering you as the one who can't move on when in actuality it's his idiot daughter who can't. For crying out loud, she didn't have a quadruple bypass, she's just fine. This surgery was no big deal and I'm irritated for you that this is being turned into a bigger deal than it needs to be.
You've been subjected to a pattern of abuse and you never know what she's going to pull next so why would you want to visit her. C'mon DH!!!!! SDM--don't give in. It's not that your being stubborn, you are protecting yourself. This wasn't a minor argument between the two of you; it was twit attacking you and making up a bunch of lies (like she sent you a Mother's Day card). I sure hope you don't have to kick DH out again. Maybe he should go and take care of his poor little baby who had her minor elective surgery. Maybe a week by her side will remind him of what an awful beast this woman is.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Amber says: This wasn't a minor argument between the two of you; it was twit attacking you and making up a bunch of lies (like she sent you a Mother's Day card).

Boy Amber, as I was rereading this thread you have no idea how you hit the nail on the head with the Twit's recent demands. She recently, Thursday to be exact, told DH that I owe her an apology for calling her a liar on this matter. Amber, I never called her a liar. I just don't call names as it is not productive by any means. This, IMHO, is her projecting the fact that she is a liar on to me as her kind is want to do. And typical, she is caught in the wrong so she has to find something to make it seem that she is the put upon wronged person.

As I said to DH on that matter long ago, she says she sent me a card, I never received one, and she was surprised to find that you are the one that walks down to the mail box each day so you know what comes and what doesn't.

Those are the facts, Twit, just the facts. No one called her a liar but I suspect, and I don't know for sure, that she is lying and this latest charge against me is projection, and a way to try to get DH back on her side against SDM.

It isn't working. As DH said to me, the issue is moot for all intents and purposes. He told her I have done nothing wrong, do not owe her an apology, and would not be apologizing to her! WOW! Guess she is pretty upset by that from what DH says.

He might, just might, be getting ready to write her off or starting to think about completely after that because he told me that we (and generally that means him because I have as little to do with Twit as possible) should just leave her alone. Only time will tell on that. Cross your fingers.

Shaman29's picture

You are refusing to be a doormat and the whipping post for his kid.

That is not holding a grudge. That is standing up for yourself since your fidiot husband is refusing to protect you from her actions.

Most people hate it when someone who has been quietly complacent takes a stand. Despite being treated like crap for years by the skids, the minute we refuse to be abused any longer we are the grudge holders. We are the bitches. We are the bad ones.

F**k him and the horse he rode in on....and his daughter too.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

For me, if someone does something to hurt you they generally don't do it deliberately, and when they find out they hurt you that apologize and don't do things like that again.

With Twit, it is just one assault after another. Forgive her a transgression, as I have done in the past, only to have her attack and do something again, or make smart, nasty remarks at me, walk out at a holiday dinner she invited us to and go shopping leaving us sitting there stunned! She doesn't see anything wrong with what she does, that the problem is mine and DH's, we just don't understand.

I understand quite well. When someone looks me directly in the eyes, tells me that they don't invite us to anything, for whatever reason, BUT they do so in our best interest (the sun was out, there was walking involved, etc). Tell us they never invite us out to dinner because they can't afford it, don't have time and they don't have us over for the same reason and we don't eat the same food they do (??) And at the same time claims she cares about us. THAT, my friends, as I have told DH since he heard it first hand, is pretty darn direct. Any one on the receiving end of such comments should not have to be hit in the head twice to understand exactly what the Twit means. It was truly embarrassing that day to see DH chasing her all over the house trying to tell her that she could invite us over for cake and coffee, a hot dog and her avoiding him telling him she can't afford it, and SDM doesn't like the type of food they eat. (Umm, Yes, I do have to watch what I eat, but I eat almost anything as long as it isn't real spicey or raw fish, etc)

That is not holding a grudge IMHO, that is respecting her wishes. And then she cries because I won't watch her doggies for her so she and her hubby can go out and have a good time after all she LOVES us soooo much. What a piece of garbage she is. The only thing she wants is someone to beat on emotionally so she can feel smug about herself. What an ugly thing her soul must be.

sandye21's picture

Twit is a narcissist - plain and simple. I have ran many of them lately including a person whom I found out was a 'fremeny': one who treats you like a friend and calls you their friend but their actions and words contradict the definition of a friend. She is also a narcissist. This was causing me a lot of stress. I am trying to break the 'friendship' off amicably but she keeps coming back like a chronic gas attack. So I looked up narcissist jokes:

Psychiatrist interviewing narcissist Psychiatrist: "What is your favourite Christmas carol?"
Narcissist (with a straight face): "Hark the Herald Angels Sing About ME"

What is a narcissist's idea of equality?
Being equally bossy to everyone else

Why do narcissists so often complain of feeling exhausted, shattered or ill?
How would you feel if you were constantly charged with the responsibility of controlling everyone else in your family?

What is a narcissist's idea of being abused?
Occasionally having to go along with someone else's preferences

What do you call a narcissist who can graciously accept criticism or blame?
Dead.

How can you tell when a narcissist is telling lies?
His/her lips are moving

What do you call a narcissist who is never vengeful?
A myth.

Does the above sound like Twit?

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Just came back from coffee with my friend and her husband. He is retired from the gov. and worked in profiling. Anyway, I was telling her about the Twit, surgery, etc. because we all had to postpone the trip. These are the friends we are traveling to Nashville with next week.

Her husband, who rarely says anything about any situation chimed in very unexpectedly. He told me that Twit is the kind of person that can only be happy and feel good about herself when she is putting someone else down. She gets high on it. He called her a garden variety. He said he wasn't going to diagnosis her but I was on target.

He went on to say that you can bet I am not the only one she goes after and asked how her relationships were with her husband's family. I told him that they don't see much of them, especially now that the parents are gone. He said that figures. His last comment was that he bets she has no real friends because people won't put up long with her.

Anyway, coming from a man who worked profiling people for a major gov. agency, I felt very good because, as you here have assured me, I wasn't imagining it.

One thing he said makes real sense: People that don't mean to hurt you do it accidentally, are concerned and apologize because you matter. People that mean you harm know exactly what they are doing and enjoy your pain.

Now it will probably be another 4 years before he says anything else from his experience.

DH was not with me this morning. If he was this gentleman probably would have said nothing at all.

WOW!

Delilah's picture

Driving. Yes, I can imagine your stomach has been in knots. Whenever the SIL/BM topic comes up, specifically they want DhS or mine attention, my brain literally freezes in fear, then its like a million thoughts flood my body and I feel like I am climbing tje walls. I actually physically feel ill. I have to consciously consider my reactions.

Its always great when you get validation, esp from an intelligent source, as it makes you feel calmer somehow. Google emotional terrorist. Like my sil, twit will likely fit the profile. They blame everyone else for their transgressions, its all about them, their feelings, their difficulties and they love hurting other people. In fact, if you refuse them access to actually hurt you, then thats a crime also! My sil went nutso when dh told her to get lost. We were bombarded with texts for days and days, we couldnt amd wouldnt ignore her children, so any gifts we gave them was also viewed as an opportunity to contact us and tell us what stingy losers we were with the crappy gifts we gave her kids. Shes a nasty skank who thinks nothing of using her friends to sleep with their husbands behind their backs, and cant keep friends for long (wonder why).

I think any person can make a mistake but its how they deal with that mistake which determines what kind of person they are.

still learning's picture

From what I've read your DH will never understand the situation and sees this as YOUR problem not a problem that involves SD. Start by taking out anything in your conversations that make it "personal" between you and SD.

"I have told him that I am very glad things went well for her, but I would not feel comfortable going down there." This statement makes it personal. Depersonalize the whole thing by saying something like, "I'm glad things went well for her! I already made plans for _________ ." And go get your hair done or whatever. If you really want to be gracious send DH with a box of chocolates and a card for her. You're busy, hope they have a great visit, "give SD my best."

When DH goes to see ss30 I've made sure that I always have something else to do, the gym, coffee with a friend, intense house cleaning, cooking, a meet up group, catching up on my reading, whatever! I don't "hold a grudge" it's just that I am allergic to negativity and I truly enjoy alone time. I make it all about me, selfish yes, self preserving..yup.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Great point and honestly I didn't even realize I did it as I have been in such a tizzy with Twit carp these last few weeks. And I don't feel comfortable around her and DH knows why. In fact, after her direct attack at me, which he witnessed first hand and he, himself, was confused as to why she did the things and says the things she does, told me that: "You tried and it didn't work out. I don't know why she said those things, It is okay if you choose not to like her or have anything more to do with her".

What I did do is go with him to pick up some flowers so he could bring them down there to her. And I stayed at home.

What is interesting is that she called Sat. morning crying about how bad she hurts, how little sleep she is getting. DH called to tell her he was stopping by, no one was home so he just left the flowers by the front door. She called about 8 p.m. and told him she was out shopping for 6 hours! Can't be hurting that bad IMHO. He even comment to me that he was surprised by that. I wasn't....it is all about Twit.

sandye21's picture

You mean Twit is not in intensive care?!!! MEOWWWW! PFT!! I know I'm being catty but I couldn't resist. If she was out shopping for 6 hours it couldn't have been that taxing on her body. But just think of all the time she had to buy you the perfect Christmas gift! I really think we should start a new thread: "What do you think Twit is going to get SDM this year, and do you think your skid will top it?" Sorry for being so sarcastic but I think you have nerves of steel. I admire you so much in how you have handled all of this ridiculous behavior. But I also want to give you a big (((HUG)))

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Oh Sandye - you just made me laugh so hard with the new thread title that I spit my tea out on my screen. Felt good. Thank You! No, not sarcastic, just realistic. And, hey, it would be an interesting topic for the holidays. We have to have a prize for the winner.

Thank You for the hug. I need it.

You know DH has come so far, but going through this stuff, an enlightening so to speak, is not a one time fix all.

I sure haven't felt real strong, or have nerves of steel. You would be surprised at how many tears I shed, many tears of frustration.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Sandye - Just have to update you. Guess DH talked to Twit and she was telling him how because she is different somehow, they didn't get just how bad her GB was. Something about fatty tumors on it or some such thing. And, yes, she (in her mind) was much sicker etc. than all those quacky doctors realized.

I couldn't help it, I just burst out laughing. DH was piqued with me for that, but really. Twit has the only special, terrible, unusual GB problem in the WHOLE-WIDE world. Maybe I am just better at detecting Twit BS when it comes along. As I laughed I told DH I didn't want to hear about her and her aches and pains. .

BUT, she was out shopping for 6 hours on Sat. Can't be hurting that bad IMHO. Though just earlier that morning she was telling DH how she hurt so bad she had only gotten l or 2 hours of sleep Thurs. and Fri. nights.

You just watch, in a week or so we will be hearing about can we watch her dogs so she and her hubby can get away because the surgery has just stressed her out so badly she needs it. THAT isn't going to happen, no dog watching by us.

sandye21's picture

When you described her fatty tumor, I was reminded of the movie 'Alien' when that little nasty creature poked it's way to the surface. Sounds like the GB has a life all it's own. We need to give it a name. How about giving her a little something with the 'alien' on it for Christmas? The gift would have a special meaning - if you get my drift.

I am so glad you told DH you don't want to hear about her aches and pains. Otherwise this will carry on forever. And good thing you will not agree to sit the dogs. But let's see if she asks. I'll put my money on it - or maybe the RV.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

I don't want to hear about her aches and pains because it is all BS. No one has ever been sicker than she was, these tumors kept the doctors from seeing how really sick she was. I can sympathize with someone who is really sick, really in pain etc. But this one, always has the worst, the most terrible, the most unique etc. of whatever it is. And this part I love, they never diagnosis her right because she is so different and they are all quacks.

You are right about what Is upcoming. I would bet the farm on it, if I had one to bet Smile

Amber Miller's picture

Sandye--
Bwahahahaha!
You get my award for comment of the day. I almost spit out my wine when I read this!

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

I was just clicking pass the Sy-Fy channel and had a thought. Maybe they could do a "The Gall Bladder from H*ll" as a Halloween horror movie. Twit could play the part of the patient.

Can you just see the creepy little thing crawling on the floor looking for its next victim?

Geez, I'm starting to have way too much fun with this, Sandye. Look what you started Smile

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Oh Meer, don't be sorry. I value YOUR input and opinion. It makes me think about things. Heck, I'm not perfect by a long shot....nor ever going to be a candidate for sainthood Smile

But I do agree with you about men. They can be obtuse to say the least. A woman can tear another woman to shreds right in front of the guys. They know what is going on, but the guys? They don't have a clue.

I am sure that because I helped, well actually picked out the flowers for DH he thinks that all is forgiven with Twit. It isn't. I can forgive the past, but I don't want to deal with her in the future and open myself up to more insults, bottom of the garbage can gifts (one year she gave me a bunch of soiled, yes soiled, yellow napkins, for Christmas! Ya know, at least, if you think anything of someone, you don't give them soiled, dirty items. They went right in the trash can. Twit was SO pleased with herself for giving me....get this....ANTIQUE napkins, oh I should be SO delighted. They were absolutely filthy, stained and definitely not old....just used. She even bragged she found them at the bottom of a box lot they had bought! And she is smart, when she did this she watched my face knowing what a carppy gift it was, and said, for DH's benefit....remember, it's the thought that counts! She KNOWS what she does and enjoys it.

Or when we ran into her at a store where I was buying something for cash that came to about $50.00. She was trying to talk me and DH to let her put it on her charge card and give her the cash so she could get the points on her charge card! Honestly! I am not kidding. She was actually peeved that I didn't do so.

Amber Miller's picture

When twit gave you the nasty, filthy napkins and followed up by saying "it's the thought that counts" is proof that she knew it was a disgusting gift. Think about it......,I have never, ever, ever given a gift to someone and immediately after they opened it said "it's the thought that counts". Also, it is demeaning and condescending to say this. It's like she is talking to you like a child...."oh honey, I knew you wanted that new (computer, xbox, iPod, TV) but I got you a rubber duckie; remember to say thank you even though you are disappointed as this is the most useless gift you could ever get. Remember, it's the thought that counts. Now say thank you, smile and act appreciative". That's how this feels to me. Not only does she give you a horrible, filthy, discussing gift but she is acknowledging that it's horrible by telling you it's the thought that counts. When my DH have me a pair of white sapphire earrings and a diamond and sapphire ring for graduating form college last year, he didn't say "it's the thought that counts" as he knew I was beyond thrilled and excited about this gorgeous jewelry that he so lovingly picked out for me. I think I have established my point.
The thought that counts??? MY ASS!!!!!
You mentioned that twit and her DH make six figures and she's handing out dirty napkins and ashtrays???? You're expected to be happy by this? This is appalling. She should've just given you nothing; that would've been better. Ok, so if it's the thought that counts, then it's obvious that the "thought" here is that she is trying to hurt you and she's showing you what she thinks of you. She must have really enjoyed giving this garbage to you in front of everyone else. She knew you'd have to act a certain way but that inside you would be pissed and horrified. I would give her the ashtray this year that she gave to you prior. I would say " twit, I know how much you love this wonderful piece. That is why I would like you to have it. Remember, it's the thought that counts" }:)

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Amber - I wish you could have been at the one auction we happened to be at together. I bid on something I wanted, and it happened to be for me, and she screamed at me...yep screamed..."My husband wants that!" and then she yelled at DH that I was bidding on it to be mean!

Her husband had to take her in hand and told her that I had no knowledge that he had the slightest interest in it. He had to settle her down.

It was very, very confusing to be yelled at like that, but Twit, she was a absolute fool.

DH? He didn't know what was going on right away. Twit wanted him to stop me from bidding on it. It was all over and I had won it and I certainly didn't give it to Twit, who was angling to try to get it from DH for free, of course. I won it, it was mine, and I have it on my mantle right now.

Amber Miller's picture

The idiot could've out-bid you if she wanted it so badly. I can only imagine the other people who heard this. How embarrassing! Yes, I wish I could've seen this display. I'm sure I would've been fascinated by her behavior. I would've wanted to crawl under a rock if I would've been associated with her. If her DH and her earn 6 figures then she could've paid for it. And of course the snotty little b!tch expected you to just give it to her even though she insults you and treats you like trash. I can't believe she gave her father a nasty, greasy BBQ utensil and then said when he learns how to use it that she will SELL him a $100 set. What an a$$hole. She disgusts me.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Amber, yes she could of. But she was so busy having a temper tantrum that the auction closed before her hubby calmed her down. You know what she had the audacity to say at me afterwards? "That's okay, I'll get it later [after you die]!! Really! What a warm person she is....NOT.

As we know, there is something very wrong with someone who thinks and acts like that and it IS very, very SCAREY.

Amber Miller's picture

Holy cow that is scary. I remember you writing about something in the past about her insinuating/telling you that she will get your stuff when you die. That statement alone is enough for you to cut all contact with her forever. I bet when you and your DH pass on that she will be the first person at your house with moving boxes. I know you probably have your affairs in order but I hope there is a way that your DD and family will be able to call the police and have twit arrested for criminal trespass and or burglary if she takes anything. How sad that your DD will probably have to deal with her while she's grieving. Aren't you worried that if your DH passes on first that twit will come knocking on your door within hours of his passing? This is what I'm scared about with my crazy SD. My DH is 25 years older than me and I know there's going to be a time I will most likely be without him. If that crazy bitch comes and harasses me, I will have her arrested. I'm going to make sure we have a trust and that she gets NOTHING! She disowned my DH and said she wants nothing to do with him unless he divorces me. In my mind, that means she gets nothing. I hope you have a similar plan for twit.
Pulling a temper tantrum at an auction house is outrageous. I wonder why her DH hasn't dumped her ass yet?

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Yes, Amber, Twit statements like that are scary. That was not the first time she has flung that one out at me. I once called her on it only to have her tell me that I was thin skinned, she was only kidding. Yeah, right. Comments like that are NOT funny at any time.

I do expect her at the house as soon as DH passes away...no matter where we move. She is a vulture.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Yep, Amber they do over 6 figures a year and treat themselves quite well....only the best for Twit and her babies. The rest of us, meaning DH and I get things like dirty napkins, ashtrays, used, greasy grill utensils. I do find it beyond the pale. And when I use to get hurt and tell DH he would agree with Twit, it is the thought that counts.

Before I disengaged on giving Twit anything, I tried to explain to DH how the "it is the thought that counts" are the kind of things that children give their parents because they don't have money. Like when you are 5 and Dad takes you out with your whole $2.00 you saved to buy a gift for Mom. Not how one should be acting when one is 50.

Every year she and I will say, her hubby, bake a tone of cookies that she passes out to her pot and pan team (cheap gifts) and never in the 4 years we have been down here has she ever offered us any cookies eventhough we have seen them all bundled up and she talks about how she is giving them to her team. I always found that strange though I have never said anything. I mean like bake mega batches of cookies I would at least see my parents got some. She thinks only of herself and her babies, and her hubby.

AVR1962's picture

I think what we are talking here is the difference in unconditional love. When we love a person unconditionally we can forgive them of anything and all wrong doing but I think only a bio parent can offer that. For us as step parents to offer that same type of love it not possible. Wr see the faults, we see the problems that are causing issues but the parents want to overlook and not see what we see.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

AVR - When I deal with Twit I am not dealing with skunk eyes, or an occasional nasty remark, or being ignored (don't I wish) etc. I deal with full blown attacks, nasty letters, her running up her and telling my husband I called her a liar, when I didn't, screaming at me, making remarks about my dying, etc.

Trust me, everyday normal type slights are nothing, they are rolled off. It is this stuff that is scary and very upsetting.

Delilah's picture

Time to return the favour and only purchase the most thoughtless...ahem, I mean, thoughtful gifts you can find. After all, its the thought that counts. Right? Dirol

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Dee - Just came across a box of junk, and I mean junk, jewelry. I am tempted to wrap it up gorgeously now and gift it to her for Christmas. Right now, as devious as I am feeling, I want to wrap it, show it to DH (so he doesn't go and buy her something) and then, when she opens it and find all this plastic beads with broken clasps, mismatched earrings, etc. say loudly: As you say, Twit, it's the thought that counts.

But I know DH would be quite upset, and rightfully so. Sigh, that is just not my nature but sometimes I can dream of doing it.

I can guarantee that if I did that to her she would break out crying about how terrible SDM is to give her such garbage....boo hoo hoo

Oh well. I'm hoping I can go away for the holidays. DD is coming here for Thanksgiving and going to her hubby's parents for Christmas. I can't hog all the holidays with her Smile

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Laura - Since we had counseling etc., he has told her off many a time. And he has sided with me many a time. But she keeps on coming.

I think, I know, he isn't thinking clearly on this because of her GB problems. He was worried etc. as well he should be.

He has told me just a few months back that he knows I tried with her, he doesn't know why she says or does to me the things she does (and he has seen it first hand), and it is fine with him if I want nothing to do with her.

Rags's picture

Toxic controlling people will always attempt to reassert control and suck you back in.

My XILs tried this for years. Fortunately their cavernous crotched skank whore adulteress of a daughter and I never spawned so they had little to motivate my interface with them following the divorce.

There is nothing traumatic about gall bladder surgery. A few small incisions, some arthroscopic work, a day of recovery in the hospital. That is about it. Not significantly different than an appendectomy which I have had. My dad had his gall bladder removed a few months ago. His was actually gangrenous which is about as traumatic as you can get with a gall bladder according to his surgeon. His recovery and my appendectomy recovery were about the same.

DH has selective memory. Keep him clear on history and remind him that past behavior is the best predictor of future performance.

Protect yourself.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Yesterday DH went down to see Twit. First time he has seen her since her uber-major, life threatening surgery.

He comes home, puts on a pot of coffee and asks me to sit down and just listen. It is obvious he is very concerned. Seems that Twit started off on him that I owe her an apology because I called her a liar (you may recall that not too long ago she dashed up here with a wild hair up her butt crying to DH that I had allegedly called her a liar, which I had not). Seems Twit brought this up and demanded that DH have me apologize to her because she is so upset.

DH said he listened to her and reminded her that she was the one that started the problem with me with the snotty letter and then running up to our place to start trouble (which at the time he sadly bought into Sad ). DH said he told her flat out that I owed her no apology. I had done nothing to wrong her and would not be apologizing! WOW!!!

Evidently, according to DH, Twit denied doing anything mean or nasty, it was all me. THIS even though DH had heard some of the things she said to me as he was right there at the time she said them.

And, as we all figured, she actually asked him to watch her dogs so they could "get away because they need R&R". DH told me not to worry, that we won't be watching their dogs again.

He said she flat out lied to him about several things, which he himself heard her say, twisting them around to sound like I said them to her. He also told her, and this I am sooo glad, that he didn't like the way she treats him for holidays like Father's Day, Christmas, etc. WOW again because he use to deny that his feelings were hurt by what she pulled and did so for him to admit to me that he told her this was really something. He also told her he doesn't like the way she treats and talks about her BM either. That she might not be perfect, but she is still her mother and deserves respect as such.

You know friends, I figured it wouldn't be long until she demanded an apology out of me for her bad behavior. Note that she went for the "I called her a liar" bit because it worked before with DH.

Anyway, DH hugged me and said that I don't have to like her or deal with her, just to try to be civil to her.

I spoke up then and said that being civil with her would not work because that is what she thrives on. She sees that as an opportunity to be nasty, get mean, hurt, etc. That I needed to have nothing more to do with her. He could see her any time he wanted, but leave me out.

Right now I bet Twit is stewing because in the past, before counseling etc., DH would have put pressure on me to apologize to her. He didn't tell her he would fix things, he told her I had done nothing to her to apologize for and I wouldn't be apologizing. Oh, I bet she is seething and skeeming as I write this. Wacko's like Twit can't stand to be told that they are wrong and not perfect.

So, friends, what happens in recovery for DH is that there are steps forward and steps backwards but it is tough on me. And while it is better than before I threw him out, the hits from Twit just keep on coming.

Also, I am concerned and scared because Twit has been thwarted and that is when she gets sneaky, vicious, mean etc. I feel like I will have to be watching over my shoulder.

sandye21's picture

SDM, I know I am not telling you anything you don't know but a lot of narcissists are also control freaks who can not allow anyone out of their control. They will fluctuate between all sorts of manipulations to try to maintain control. Twit sees she is losing control over DH. Her life threatening - ugliest GB in the world - surgery didn't work so she used the old 'SDM lied about me' ploy again. Good for your DH for recognizing this and standing up for you but I really believe in a couple of weeks Twit will come up with something else. If Twit was smart she would play nice for a while, thereby pulling DH into her web again. Instead she chooses the entitlement and blame game. She is forgetting that DH has actually witnessed what actually occurred vs. Twit's version of the story.

So what do you think her next game will be? Playing nice or one of her old games which will turn off DH even more. It really appears DH is starting to distance himself. There may come a time where Twit turns DH off enough he will quit messing around with her all together. We can only hope.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Yes Sandye, the time will come when DH will, hopefully, leave her alone all together. Unfortunately, until that time comes there will be this back and forth as he goes through the physical discovery process. I believe counseling is the mental part, where you are enlightened as to what someone is doing and why, but some people have to go through the physical part of it. As they say, life's messy and Twit is, at this point in our lives, the source of a lot of the messiness.

Heck, I'm no doc., but that is just what it seems to me.

One other thing he said to me was that Twit could be quite mean at times. Makes me wonder just what else she said that he won't tell me.

One thing I want to point out to you is that when Twit first let Dh know about her life-threatening GB problem, she told him that it was her HUSBAND that told her she had to let DH know. This was done to let DH know that here she was facing "death's door" and wouldn't let him know herself but she was only letting him know because her hubby wanted her to. Just a way of trying to control and manipulate. She was putting him on notice then.

I think Twit is incapable of playing nice and quite frankly, I see no need to be civil to her. By that I mean I am not going to talk to her, answer her, sit next to her etc. I just see no need. And knowing Twit not to do so is letting her look for a place to attack me.....that is what her type do, look for a weak spot and go for it. her type, monsters that the are, are always seeking someplace to attack.

I can also say that Daddy's approval means a lot to her and since he told her how things are she is probably madder than ever. You see, she has always been able to control Daddy in the past, but times are a changing. That is why when she wanted to get at me and wasn't succeeding, she got that wild hair up her butt and came up her crying and bawling and shaking (with rage but DH doesn't realize that is what it is; he thinks she is upset) to DH that I called her a liar. She knows what the outcome generally is for me and she loves it.

Tonight, even after a wonderful 4 days away in Nashville, I am all tense and getting stomach knots. I am going to have to sit DH down and tell him that I just cannot physical go on like this.

sandye21's picture

"This was done to let DH know that here she was facing "death's door" and wouldn't let him know herself but she was only letting him know because her hubby wanted her to." Ya, and she delivered the threat to DH that if she dies he wouldn't know until it is too late. That one didn't work so she chose another track. Too bad DH has witnessed the truth.

Yesterday a poster echoed a bit of wisdom from Stepaside: If you encounter a dog that bites your leg, you don't place your leg so you are bitten again. (Sorry, Stepaside, I did my best.) And guess what? I've ran into people whose dog attacked me and they took the side of the dog. I guess there was some sort of connection there but not for me. I never went back there again - and that is my point. Your DH still has a connection to Twit so he will never quite see the situation as you do but everyone else on earth would think he should put a muzzle on her. You owe it to yourself, you health and well being to not be around Twit's fangs. Take care of yourself first.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Yes, he still has a connection with her, but it is not as strong as it was in the past. Thank Goodness.

And I think that, at times, he is just, well just doesn't know what to do regarding her. Like the time I caught him crying after one of the RV things.

It is going to take time for him to get his fill of her, now that he knows what she is doing from counseling.

Maybe Twit is starting to get the message that things are changing, that I am not being thrown under the bus for her ego gratification as in the past. As I said, I am certain she is furious that Dh told her I owned her no apology. And with Twit, when she is furious she gets very very nasty and mean. I think she may have already done that the other day with DH. Her arsenal of evil is winding down as DH becomes more and more aware of her tactics.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

After reading the above, who is carrying an imagined grudge? Twit.

If she thinks I'm going to apologize for something I never did, she is totally delusional.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

From what I am reading, they switch from malicious to victims pretty darn fast. Like Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde.

I figured it would not be long before she would be crying to him that she was the put upon one. That is how she operates. She can be terribly cruel but she is always the aggrieved one.

Sadly, if I have her figured correctly, she is seething that she isn't getting her way. And being a control freak, and needing daddy's approval, as in the past he always gave in to her even if it meant sacrificing me, her delusional world has been rocked. It ain't over yet.

Easylikesundaymornin's picture

Wow ~ she , I think I have a mini version of Twit ~ I call her Veruca.

Veruca ~ tries to play hard ball with DF. She tried to paint our situation very differently to DF. She has been estranged for 3 years with an attempted of rekindling. Before estrangement occurred she was very angry but wouldn't tell her father what the issue was ( which to me speaks volumes to her actions being the problem ) ~ DF knows her character. Has said as much as Veruca falling from the Apple tree of Tinkerdouche ( the almighty spin doctor) ~ narcassist breeded narcassist. When you have no explaination as to why you do something to me ~ you know you are WRONG. She claims innocence !!! Ha ha ha Bullshit Veruca ~ I have seen you stalking our house. ( but that's innocense I think not ).
Years ago she was angry at him n did the old I am sorry ..... But you went overboard. To me when you apologize ~ you NEVER follow up with the word but in the same sentence. It negates the apology. Jimmney Cricket people own your mistakes !!!

Veruca is a hi-bred narcassist !! If you can't understand someones rationale to any point ~ to be screams narcassist. Some one in her crazy ass family gave her the power ~ the power to feel entitled.

She will never own my thoughts or feelings. I know right from more ~ don't mask it ~ make excuses for it. OWN it !!! Point blank when you act like an asshole ~ you are an asshole. It's called control ~ control your anger ~ discipline your inner thoughts n feelings and do the right thing not what you want to do.

I know my SD hates me ~ her feelings she's entitled but do I want to be around her ? never not my cup of tea. She can spend time w her Dad. Like you she has no reason to hate me other than she didn't like my rules at my house. It's simple ~ don't come to my house. I treated her well ~ just like my kids. The constant upheavealed drama was more than I could handle. Everyday was a constant problem with someone ~ at some point you have to look in the mirror, realize the issue is not 99% of the people.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Well put and well said ELSM. They are absolutely mind befuddling aren't they.

Twit always has a problem with someone. Oh, poor Twit, her BM isn't talking to her...AGAIN. Oh she is tired of listening to her brother phone calls. Oh, the BM is trying to get money from her again, oh they are all complaining to her about each other and driving her crazy. People on her pot and pan team are losers because they aren't making her enough $$. the pattern is that she is always the great, omnipotent one who knows all and is above all. Yep, guess she is.....but only in her mind. And isn't she just so sexy that the old, and I mean old man across the street from her is lusting after her. Heck, the guy is just an old man trying to muddle through life and medicare. At his age sex is probably something that he remembers fondly but that is about it. But Twit wants to make this nice old man out to be a leech after her cause she is so attractive.

Until I found this board and started to read about Narcissism and got the low down on it from you fine folks, I had no clue as to what I was dealing with other than flat out crazy.

The latest one is that she is moaning about her husband and how he isn't spending time with her, comes home and goes to his man cave, etc. He doesn't want to help her with things around the house, etc. DH is getting rather angry at him because of what Twit is saying. She cried she would leave but she had no where to go. Hmm, makes me think that the perfect marriage isn't so perfect.

sandye21's picture

Has she complained to DH about her husband before? Or is this a new ploy to draw DH into her web? Dudley Do-right to the rescue! Here again, specifics are needed. How much time does he want him to spend with her? What is he not doing to help around the house? Maybe when he got home Twit expected him to be at her beck and call because she was so gravely ill. But when she left almost immediately to go and spend hours shopping he figured it was another bunch of hot air.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Twit has been complaining to DH about her hubby for a few months now. Since the time he was chasing her around her house begging her to have us over for a hot dog and she was telling him she couldn't afford it! That was the time she looked me in the eyes and said about how she cares about "us". All Twit trattle and bunk.

It was when I was dragging him out that she started complaining to him about her hubby and how she would leave if she just had somewhere to go...boo hoo hoo.

Let's see, as I remember it, according to Twit her husband drops everything, including drunkie, on her and gives her no help with him. What is the poor Twit suppose to do? Her husband is working 10 hours a day and a lot of weekends and she doesn't like it. Yet, she doesn't mind the 6 figure income he pulls in. Ya all didn't think she was doing anything big selling pots and pans did ya? Poor Twit, she has to cut the big yard (2 acres) because her husband is working, etc. YET drunkie sleeps his latest hang over off or isn't home. I don't know, I may be out on left field here, but I think that maybe her hubby is avoiding her? Has had his fill? Hopefully getting ready to move on.

My DH is a good man. Once when Twit was crying about how her husband doesn't help her with the drunkie, DH suggested she attend some Al-Anon meetings to help her out. Right away the excuses began...oh, they had Al-Anon meetings at the same time as AA meetings but they were on the other side of town and she had to take drunkie to the AA meetings (so it looked good for the court). DH offered to drive drunkie to the AA meeting so she could go to the "other side of town" for the Al-Anon meeting but she blew him off. She doesn't want help, she wants pity and attention and, most of all, admiration.....look, isn't she so good and so suffering that she gives up her life to take drunkie to AA meetings, and her lousy husband won't help out. I asked him about the AA meetings and he says that drunkie doesn't want to go, fights about going, so as he sees it, why bother. I think he is right.

Easylikesundaymornin's picture

Tell Twat ~ ooppps I mean Twit. Excuses are like assholes ~ everyone has one.

They don't just offer one AA class ~ doubtful. She's doesn't want help she wants you all to feel bad for her. She needs to do something if her life is so bad ~ but she might find that the grass isn't greener on the other side. We all create our destiny ~ if you want positive thing in life ~ you make changes.

Dad needs to say ~ if you don't like your life ~ make some changes " Do something other than bitch about it."

I like you didn't know the exact word for my SD ~ all I knew was that it took more effort to make things calm with her. Way too much. That the drama was THICK ~ it was strange. No logic behind anything she said n did. My DF thinks that she is a very logically person ( which I disagree with ~ I think he wants her so badly to be like him ) ~ she is reckless. An adrenalin junk ~ feels like she is the leader ~ if friends don't hate who she hates they can not be friends ( I didn't not come up with this thought on my own | it came from one of her social media entries). She picks on one person ruthlessly ~ like a pitbull bite grip !! Flaunts her body ~ has a big chest ~ jumps up n down to make them bounce ~

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

ELSM - Yeah excuses galore. DH doesn't bother any more about Drunkie and AA. As he now sees it, drunkie doesn't want to quit drinking, doesn't want to go to AA, it was just a thing he is doing so he can say to the court that he is trying.

And as for Twit having to do everything around the house. Heck, I'd have the drunk up at 8 and helping out around the house. He would be cutting that grass rather than sleeping off his latest hangover etc. And if he didn't like it he would be OUT. Twit isn't going to throw drunkie out. She couldn't be the martyr of the year then, she needs him. Twit is just another enabler.

I can tell you why she doesn't want to go to Al-Anon....she doesn't want any one to know about her. Oh, she wants to complain and be a martyr but she doesn't want anyone to, well she would have to reveal herself and admit her helplessness with the problem etc. Trust me, no way would she ever do that...after all....she is PERFECT.

Me? I learned a long long time ago I am not perfect and upon that realization life became so much easier and fun. Also, life is messy, no one is perfect and we all just fumble through it to the best of our ability. The trick, though, is to avoid the crazy like Twit. DH is working on it and next spring we will be actively searching for a new home in a different state.

sandye21's picture

"Heck, I'd have the drunk up at 8 and helping out around the house. He would be cutting that grass rather than sleeping off his latest hangover etc. And if he didn't like it he would be OUT. Twit isn't going to throw drunkie out. She couldn't be the martyr of the year then, she needs him."

SDM, I agree with you, Twit needs dunkie to be like he is or she can't have an excuse for people to feel sorry for her. But man! It is hard to fathom why she is miffed with her husband who is working his butt off while dunkie is sleeping off a hang over - doing nothing. Like you wrote, drunkie needs to be shown to the curb.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

Hi Sandye - Can be summed up quite simply as drunkie is her "babie" even though he is 23 going on 24.

.

shes driving me crazy in my retirement's picture

My friend, the one we went to Nashville with, did pass on some info that her husband told her (he is the retired gov. profiler). That if he were me he would watch my back. He told her she obviously has me well in her sights and her type doesn't give up its prey very willingly as he feels she is threatened/jealous of me because I don't think she is great etc.

Now THAT is pretty darn scary!