Anon2009's picture

"Trapping"

The blog written earlier today got me to thinking about this.

Many of these BMs seem like they have crazy histories. Before I have sex with someone, I like to know about their history, and if they have any mental issues.

Many of these guys didn't love the BMs. But they had some sort of relationship with them, and had sex with them?

Most of these guys aren't victims.

not2sureimsaneanymore's picture

But anon, the issue is

But anon, the issue is whether these women are trapping men. By definition what they have done by lying and misleading with the intention of keeping someone IS trapping. That's what a trap is. And where there is a trap, there is a predator and a prey. I'm not saying men shouldn't smarten up and wear condoms regardless of what someone says butt hat regardless, they are still victims.

It isn't up to the Bm to look out for them, but it isn't up to the Bm to purposely do it either. There's the difference between an accident and premeditated.

Anon2009's picture

They're not victims. Many of

They're not victims. Many of these guys had 0 intention of being with BM for a long period of time. Yet they still hopped into bed with her, more than once.

Chapter 3, Ecclesiastes, vs. 1-8

not2sureimsaneanymore's picture

I'm curious if it makes you

I'm curious if it makes you uncomfortable to think of men in general as "victims" and women as predators who "trap"?

As I said, it's a definition issue. What do you call the act of attempting to catch a person or animal for your own end purpose through the use of deceit, manipulation, or camouflage? What do you call the person/animal who fell for your deceit, manipulation, or camouflage?

I agree that they should have wrapped it up, but by the definition I am used to, they were "trapped" and they are "victims." I am judging it solely on that.

Victims aren't always solely blameless. But sometimes as a product of their upbringing, they may not have had that kind of guidance or taught, as Former have to her children, to protect themselves. Some of the elderly were not taught not to give out their information to fishing attempts. They are victims too. They know that people can get into everything if they have their SS number, but they still believed those predators who, with sweet words or a sense of urgency, lied and made them believe they had a legitimate reason for getting it.

It's not so black and white.

farting_glitter's picture

amen to what Not2sure said!

amen to what Not2sure said!

I got 99 problems ....and it's all step-related

PeanutandSons's picture

Stealing a car is illegal....

Stealing a car is illegal.... Getting pregnant is not.

Forcingly raping someone who is fighting you off is illegal whether you were just on a date with them or not.

Leaving your reproductive future in the hands of someone else=poor decision making and dumb. Whether she said she was on BC or not, he should have been handling his end of it if he didn't want a kid. The pill isn't 100%, forgetting to take it and meds make it even less effective, not to mention STDs. Men are 100% in control of their reproductive destinies, if they chose to give up that control to another person, that's entirely on them.

PeanutandSons's picture

Duplicate, sorry

Duplicate, sorry

PeanutandSons's picture

Stealing a car is illegal....

Stealing a car is illegal.... Getting pregnant is not.

Forcingly raping someone who is fighting you off is illegal whether you were just on a date with them or not.

Leaving your reproductive future in the hands of someone else=poor decision making and dumb. Whether she said she was on BC or not, he should have been handling his end of it if he didn't want a kid. The pill isn't 100%, forgetting to take it and meds make it even less effective, not to mention STDs. Men are 100% in control of their reproductive destinies, if they chose to give up that control to another person, that's entirely on them.

tog's picture

It may be poor

It may be poor decision-making, but that doesn't stop the fact that they are LIED to on many occasions. Why do women get all the decision making (and the CS) when they choose to get pregnant by deceit?

Whether the men are being stupid or not, they are still being TRAPPED by a woman whose intentions are to get him hooked to her for life. They are two separate issues.

Yes, men have a choice, but YES, women are lying and trapping them. So a man making a poor decision negates the woman's intentions? That makes no sense. It's not a black and white issue.

FormerAAGirl's picture

Women don't have all the

Women don't have all the decision making when they choose to get pregnant by deceit, tog. Don't wanna risk a pregnancy? Then wrap it up, lovie. Or better yet, don't have sex - lol!

Yes, women are lying to men about being on birth control. Men should take the initiative and glove up.

tog's picture

Sure they do. Two parties

Sure they do. Two parties make a mistake-the man doesn't want the child? TOUGH SHIT. You are having a baby, buddy. The woman doesn't want the child-she can get an abortion even if the man does want the child.

Yes, it can be prevented. But the women still lie.

FormerAAGirl's picture

IF the party with the penis

IF the party with the penis would have worn a condom, his chances of being child-free are much greater. And, which is it? Is the man trapping woman making a mistake or looking for a target? You can't have it both ways.

Echo's picture

"...the man doesn't want the

"...the man doesn't want the child? TOUGH SHIT."

Then the man should use a condom. Two if he's particularly adverse to being a parent.

If it's important to you, you'll find a way. If it's not, you'll find an excuse.

Nobody can hurt me without my permission.
Mohandas Gandhi

not2sureimsaneanymore's picture

Lol actually Echo, two will

Lol actually Echo, two will make the condom break, sot hat's actually not a good idea. Sorry, just had to clarify ont hat!

Echo's picture

I actually was just being a

I actually was just being a smart ass. Eye-wink

Foam, condoms, abstaining...pick something. But don't have a good time and then cry because you have to pay a price for it.

And when you volunteer for shit detail you lose the right to call yourself a 'victim'.

If it's important to you, you'll find a way. If it's not, you'll find an excuse.

Nobody can hurt me without my permission.
Mohandas Gandhi

Echo's picture

You'd think so, Rising...but

You'd think so, Rising...but apparently not.

If it's important to you, you'll find a way. If it's not, you'll find an excuse.

Nobody can hurt me without my permission.
Mohandas Gandhi

Anon2009's picture

I agree.

I agree.

Chapter 3, Ecclesiastes, vs. 1-8

twopines's picture

You're stepping into the

You're stepping into the bounds of common sense, lol.

“The witch in Hansel and Gretel -- she's very misunderstood. I mean, the woman builds her dream house and these brats come along and start eating it.” Miranda - Sex and the City

not2sureimsaneanymore's picture

I've said it this exact thing

I've said it this exact thing so many times already. No one deserves something bad to happen to them just because they trusted someone.

I think though, to answer your question tog, our society has a negative base view on sex to begin with, so people assume if something bad happens as a result of it, you are not a victim because you deserve it.

We don't have a negative view on dating someone or expressing ourselves immodestly in clothes (usually anyway), so that if someone date rapes someone else saying that well, they met us halfway by going out with us and fooling around with us but not going all the way, it's considered unacceptable.

However, I did recently meet a guy who was pretty insistent that if a woman dressed like a whore and she got raped, it's her fault and "what can you expect." Needless to say, I stopped being friends with him. There are still people out their who view date rape as the girl's fault so it stands to reason that it's the same for this.

Remember, a woman has a right to say no at any time. Even halfway during intercourse. Sure she engaged in it, but that doesn't make it okay for the guy to continue if she does not want to. It is not her fault AT ALL if he continues and rapes her and she certainly did not "deserve" it.

I give you my body for mutual enjoyment to partake in an activity. I did not consent to anything more or anything less. I'd view it just as disgustingly if a guy poked holes in condoms to get his gf pregnant to keep her, and I knew someone who got pregnant because her bf replaced her birth control pills with the one week off one, because she was going to leave him. She trusted him, he broke that trust in a way that she will now have to carry for the rest of her life. She kept the baby because her beliefs prevented her from getting an abortion.

Anyway. I guess we could go back in time and say if a woman doesn't want to get raped, she shouldn't go on dates with a guy or fool around with a guy because that's just the risk you take.

Anon2009's picture

Like Daizy said, these guys

Like Daizy said, these guys are dumb. You said that your DH had sex with BM (and it doesn't sound like he was raped by her). It sounds like he had sex with her more than once. Yet he didn't love her. Dumb, dumb move on his part.

Chapter 3, Ecclesiastes, vs. 1-8

not2sureimsaneanymore's picture

I guarantee you it was dumb

I guarantee you it was dumb and he beats himself up for it all the time. Just because someone was "dumb" doesn't give another person the right to control their fate or harass them, or make them do or become something they don't want to.

Is a woman dumb for trusting a guy won't hurt her if she goes to his apartment after five or six dates and nothing happened? Is it her fault that seventh time he DID hurt her? No. In any relationship, as in the interaction between two people where there exists some level of trust, people have the right to feel safe, and if someone violates that trust, it's on them. Sure there are warning signs but some people go ahead and do it anyway, then it's their fault?

So a guy is a bit controlling when ordering food for you and him, or he raises his voice a little when you guys are arguing, or grab your arm a little too hard. It's okay, he tells you he'll NEVER hurt you. Get married, and he beats the shit out of you. Were you dumb for believing him? Yeah. Maybe. But did you deserve it? Nope. Not one bit.

There are too many variables for each situation, but the one constant is that a liar is always in the wrong, and the person who believed them is always a victim. In any scenario no matter what. Human beings have the capacity to trust,t hat's what allows us to have the relationships that we do. Anyone who abuses trust, in any way, shape, or form is vile to me.

This is all IMHO. I know we disagree on this point but as someone who has made mistakes and know I am not above being tricked, I have compassion for those who have gotten tricked, and disdain for those who do the tricking.

Anon2009's picture

I guarantee you that if he

I guarantee you that if he wanted to, he could have talked to a lawyer about signing his rights over.

I've made mistakes too. However, I'm also very choosy about who I spend time with and let into my life. I was taught to take responsibility for myself. Comparing this to rape/abuse is in poor taste. Most victims of abuse/rape were forcibly restrained, drunk and/or drugged up. Most of these "men" were not any of those things when they were f@cking around with BM.

Chapter 3, Ecclesiastes, vs. 1-8

not2sureimsaneanymore's picture

Unfortunately you can't just

Unfortunately you can't just sign your rights over in the US (not sure where you are?)

The issue at hand is whether human beings should not be given a basic level of trust in all aspects of their interactions with others. As I've observed here, and in real life, the issue of sex seems to be one where there is an idea that since one is the penetrator and one is being penetrated, the penetrator holds the greatest deal of responsibility, and it is inherently considered an immoral act.

Obviously, in situations of forcible intercourse, this idea works in favor of the one who was penetrated, while it works against the ones who are doing the penetration.

Rightfully so in that scenario. Not so much in other situations of sex. It's quite prevalent even in the issue of rape. A majority believe a man cannot be forced to have sex with a woman, as Project Unbreakable's male survivors have shown. Thus we tend to assign a greater amount of responsibility in situations of force and lying to the male.

I think it's a societal thing. We still, in our minds, believe men are less likely to be dominated and victimized. I don't know if we can achieve true gender equality with this as possibly a biologically inherent idea.

This is just what i observed, I think it's an interesting subject.

Anyway. everyone has their own beliefs that we may or may not agree with. This is an issue of belief, much like democrats vs. republicans, pro-life vs pro-choice. It's about what you believe is more important in your hierarchy of values. i view lying as worse than being stupid or not careful. Some people view being stupid/not careful worse than lying.

And I know it is impossible to change opinions but a good healthy debate is always welcome for me.

Willow2010's picture

Unfortunately you can't just

Unfortunately you can't just sign your rights over in the US
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You can if you are a woman...

not2sureimsaneanymore's picture

Wait, what? When can BM's

Wait, what? When can BM's just sign over their rights to the BF without a stepparent willing to adopt the children? I know at least signing over rights work both ways.

Willow2010's picture

No..I am saying that women

No..I am saying that women can sign away their rights period. And a lot do. If a woman does not want to be financially responsible for her kid, she can just place it up for adoption.

not2sureimsaneanymore's picture

OH you mean the adoption

OH you mean the adoption issue. Yeah, I know that but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Guys can't decide to just check out like women can when it comes to whether or not they want to be responsible for a kid.

farting_glitter's picture

^^agreed

^^agreed

I got 99 problems ....and it's all step-related

stormabruin's picture

' i view lying as worse than

' i view lying as worse than being stupid or not careful. "
____________________________________________________________

Lying IS wrong. Is that to say that there is no blame to be had for making stupid or wreckless choices? I don't believe so. There are consequences for every decision we make. The consequences that come as a result of the choices WE make are ours to own.

"Women are angels & when someone breaks our wings we simply continue to fly...on a broomstick. We are flexible like that."

not2sureimsaneanymore's picture

I think there's a

I think there's a miscommunication. I agree they should have personal responsibility for not wrapping it up, I am not arguing not that point. What I am (hopefully) trying to get across is that the definition of a victim and trapping is what the women are doing and what the men are.

I would just like to see that the women get punished for lying rather than the men being told to suck it up.

I think the women should get punished and the men should do whatever the law says they should, lol.

not2sureimsaneanymore's picture

I completely agree that the

I completely agree that the guys should have wrapped it up and that they should take personal responsibility in this, but that in syntactical terms and technicality, what the women did was trap.
and thus, a man is a victim is he gets trapped.

On the personal responsibility thing: That's why I don't drink when I'm at clubs, and only do so in the privacy of my own home, or at dinner in a restaurant with my friends or my husband. I carry my own water, and don't accept drinks from other people. In hindsight, the few times that I went alone to some of my guy friends houses was stupid, and even though physically I've had the training to protect myself, things could have easily gone wrong too. I recognize that as I recognize that I am lucky nothing ever happened to me where I needed to put my training to the test. But if something did, I think the fault goes largely to the other person, and not myself, although goodness knows many victims blame themselves much more,